Lamanite Identities

[Scott Lloyd]

To each there own. Neither of us has anything but conjecture on the issues referenced.

My assumption is that the Helaman inclusion of Samuel the Lamanite was done by Mormon, christs "rebuke" of their lack of inclusion of Samuel Predated the compilation of the current Bom... Infact, Mormons decision to include Samuel may have been made after the reading of christs reference to the issue.

Mormon lived 400 years after the coming of Christ. He abridged records already made by others, Helaman included.

Your assumption is not supported by the text in the book, not in the least.

[Bikeemikey]

Mormon lived 400 years after the coming of Christ. He abridged records already made by others, Helaman included.

Your assumption is not supported by the text in the book, not in the least.

I agree with all that - the point is we have no way to know if the Helaman account of nephi was already included pre Christ. My reading of christs request to include the text is suggestive of the idea it was not located at that time as part of the chronological narrative.

My point regarding Mormon was only he have have moved it to that part of the story during the compilation.

[volgadon]

To each there own. Neither of us has anything but conjecture on the issues referenced.

My assumption is that the Helaman inclusion of Samuel the Lamanite was done by Mormon, christs "rebuke" of their lack of inclusion of Samuel Predated the compilation of the current Bom... Infact, Mormons decision to include Samuel may have been made after the reading of christs reference to the issue.

Also, creating a distinct community where the individuals don't assimilate into the broader society is a form of racism. I am not criticizing them for the fact.. Rather making the observation that everyone then was heavily racist. The whole Bom is a history of different -ites fighting to define who the best group was.

While your reading is possible, I find it more likely that Christ rebuked the Nephites for leaving out of their "canon" a recent prophecy of two pivotal events- Christ's birth and Christ's death. Pure and simple.

[Nathair/|\]

To each there own. Neither of us has anything but conjecture on the issues referenced.

My assumption is that the Helaman inclusion of Samuel the Lamanite was done by Mormon, christs "rebuke" of their lack of inclusion of Samuel Predated the compilation of the current Bom... Infact, Mormons decision to include Samuel may have been made after the reading of christs reference to the issue.

Also, creating a distinct community where the individuals don't assimilate into the broader society is a form of racism. I am not criticizing them for the fact.. Rather making the observation that everyone then was heavily racist. The whole Bom is a history of different -ites fighting to define who the best group was.

What's wrong with trying to preserve a unique and beautiful minority culture? Much evil has been done by forcing minority or less powerful cultures to adopt the ways of the dominant culture. So much ancient lore lost, so many songs and stories...Come to the Gaeltacht or the Highlands or any reservation and ask the elders there.

[Bikeemikey]

What's wrong with trying to preserve a unique and beautiful minority culture? Much evil has been done by forcing minority or less powerful cultures to adopt the ways of the dominant culture. So much ancient lore lost, so many songs and stories...Come to the Gaeltacht or the Highlands or any reservation and ask the elders there.

I don't think this was a good or a bad thing. I'm not judging them for this. It is simply the way things were (pretty much globally) for all humanity back in the day. We formed groups, protected the boundaries of those groups and strictly monitored access to those groups.

But maybe the nephites were really just concerned with cultural identity being lost. I don't know.

However, what was the premise of missionary work to the laminates? Lets send people into their community to tell them their history is wrong, make sure they understand that accepting god is also accepting their descendants were wicked and that much of the basis for many of their cultural concepts was founded on laman and Lemuel being total tools.

Then when they finally say, we have been wrong all this time, let us join your church there is no attempt to integrate them.

[volgadon]

However, what was the premise of missionary work to the laminates?

That framing is better?

make sure they understand that accepting god is also accepting their descendants were wicked

Ancestors, perhaps?

[Calm]

Ancestors, perhaps?

A goodly portion of my ancestors participated in horrible things undoubtedly, like the attempted almost genocide of native Americans. Go back far enough and I've got plenty of raping, murdering, pillaging Norse in my pedigree line.

What human being can ever claim that their ancestors were all of the righteous quality?

Any surviving Nephites descendant would have had the honour of being able to tell a Lamanite descendant who was complaining about what horrors his ancestors were that his Nephite ancestors managed to top anything the Lamanites got up to (the scriptures are clear the Nephites were allowed to be destroyed because of the depth of their wickedness).

[Bikeemikey]

That framing is better?

Ancestors, perhaps?

Thanks for the correction.

[Bikeemikey]

A goodly portion of my ancestors participated in horrible things undoubtedly, like the attempted almost genocide of native Americans. Go back far enough and I've got plenty of raping, murdering, pillaging Norse in my pedigree line.

What human being can ever claim that their ancestors were all of the righteous quality?

Any surviving Nephites descendant would have had the honour of being able to tell a Lamanite descendant who was complaining about what horrors his ancestors were that his Nephite ancestors managed to top anything the Lamanites got up to (the scriptures are clear the Nephites were allowed to be destroyed because of the depth of their wickedness).

I agree - which makes it even more strange that so much of the Bom reference to many people's world perceptions went back to things hundreds years later.

The point is that for the Bom cultures the historical issues were as important or more important that consideration than present day events.

This laid the foundation for a cultural separation between the lamanites and nephites that by today's standards would be racist... That is they were judged my their cultural and genealogical identity before other considerations.

[Calm]

That is they were judged my their cultural and genealogical identity before other considerations.

I don't see this as the least surprising for a description of a people from the claimed time period. In fact, I would expect it. Edited November 7, 2012 by calmoriah

[Kemara]

Part One.

You're telling me that only Westerners are offended when Native Americans are called "dark and loathsome," and "unenticing" to white people? And Native Americans are perfectly okay with it because in their culture, they like being referred to as ugly and loathsome savages? And I'm the ethnocentrist?

LOL, oh you are just too funny. For starters do you think ALL westerners think the same way you do? Talk about ethnocentric! Secondly, this is a total straw man, you are arguing against a position that was not offered. Finally, please point out to me where I offered any position or opinion on this thread about Native Americans except the following:

…I cant speak for the Native Americans…

Cobalt, you really need to think about putting in a little more effort and it would also be great if you could address what I actually wrote instead of addressing what you are pretending I wrote.

Are you serious? You think that Polynesians like to be considered "loathsome" by white people?

I almost spat my food out over my key board I laughed so hard when I read this. First, let’s see what I actually said instead of what you are pretending I said:

In various contexts looking loathsome is something aspired to by some Polynesians - aspired too and valued. Can you understand that, or is your elitism beyond correction?

Despite your carefully cropped quotes and attempted misrepresentation of my position you have in fact not strayed too far from the truth. Now I understand that someone like yourself is going to find it difficult to believe that “Polynesians like to be considered “loathsome” by white people” but you don’t need to take my word for it.

Please watch the following video clip. I would recommend watching from at least 0:28 and pay particular attention to what is being said from 1:16. I understand that this may well be offensive to your elitist world view, but you really need to come to terms with the fact that your world view is not the view of the entire world. You could try getting out a bit more.

Now try watching the following video clip. I would recommend you watch the whole thing. Fair warning though, there may be a couple of things in here that from a non-Maori cultural lens could be viewed as disturbing. No foul language…well none that you could understand anyway.

[media=]

This event took place a couple of years ago in response to a visit from government officials, and just so you know Cobalt, since it seems so important to you to make the distinction, the government officials were white. Please ask yourself if what the Maori are doing is meant to give the impression, to these white people, that they are a “delightful” bunch of happy chaps out for a Sunday stroll. Are they trying to appear as clean cut, handsome, dainty, savory, reasonable, good ole’ knock around guys? Do you see anyone playfully punching someone else on the shoulder and saying “awww shucks dude, let’s go grab a root beer float, apple pie and watch bombs bursting in air”? Or are they trying to be vile, sickening, offensive, revolting, disgusting – in a word loathsome?

So in direct answer to your ethnocentric question “You think that Polynesians like to be considered “loathsome” by white people?” in this context, absolutely they do. They not only like it, but they value it, aspire to it, seek it, desire it and learn how to do it as part of their culture.

Finally, did you notice that some of the Maori had painted themselves white? Why do you think they did this? Do you think (in the view of the Maori not your ethnocentric view) that painting themselves white increased or lessened their purpose of appearing loathsome? White and loathsome? Good grief Cobalt!

[Kemara]

Part Two.

Here is an example of some Maori on the international sporting stage playing the greatest game on earth (a little ethnocentric, I know) and trying hard to be considered loathsome by their white opponents.

Finally, a video clip of our military:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTCBXxvi1n0&feature=related

Now Cobalt, why do you think that the girl watching this event let out a bit of an exclamation at 1:45? Was it because the loathsome darkies in the front looked more handsome, delightsome and appealing from the point of your world view when they poked out their tongues at that exact moment?

What you and your culture values is not necessarily what another person or culture values. It is you who through your cultural lens is attaching a negative connotation to the word “loathsome”. As I have pointed out other people and cultures attach a positive and valuable connotation on the word. Starting to get the picture yet Cobalt?

What is bad is that: (1) their "darkness" is associated with "loathsomeness," (2) their "darkness" is a curse put upon them because of their wickedness (Alma 3:6), so that white Nephites would find them to be ugly; and (3) when some of them became righteous, their skin turned white (3 Ne. 2:15), thus linking righteous to skin color.

Your interpretation of these scriptures is.… wait for it ….ethnocentric, not to mention it being unsupportable from a detailed and careful reading of the text. You are so far behind on this one that you don’t even realize the Tortoise has already won the race. It is time for you to catch up Cobalt.

Might I suggest three things to help you catch up:

1. Learn about this subject from the perspective and culture of the people of the Book of Mormon. Your own ethnocentric dribble is of no use to you in this endeavor.
   
2. Engage in critical thinking and challenge your naive preconceived ideas. Your simple minded one-dimensional thinking is of no use to you in this endeavor.
   
3. Look at the issue from a scholarly perspective. Your assumption is of no use to you in this endeavor.
   

If you are interested in disabusing yourself of your false notions and dubious scriptural interpretations that are not supportable by the text of the Book of Mormon you could do a lot worse than starting with an article written by Brant Gardner. If you are open to an academic and historical perspective, you will see that your “modern cultural assumption that a skin of blackness must equal black skin” is not necessarily correct. As Gardner also says, and anyone who is interested in a scholarly analysis would likely agree, “The text is the final arbiter of such questions.” In other words it doesn’t matter what anybody says about the skin narrative, if that isn’t what the text says, then it isn’t what the text says. http://www.fairblog....-anyone-notice/

Also by Gardner: http://www.fairlds.o...in-of-blackness

Further to this end try Vol. 2 of Brant’s Second Witness, Analytical and Contextual Commentary on the Book of Mormon. Brant provides an excellent historical and scholarly explanation of the use of metaphor as it relates to the dark skin / loathsome narrative.

Hugh Nibley deals with this issue in a number of works, you can try Lehi in Desert and Since Cumorah. An additional work by Nibley:

Verse 6: "Thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired. And behold this thing shall be given unto thee for a sign. . . . Thou shalt also behold a man . . . and ye shall bear record that it is the Son of God. And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree [now he is being shown things; he sees a tree] . . . exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow [this whiteness is mentioned throughout the Book of Mormon; we will see it right in this same chapter here]. Notice, this is another dimension. You would think the fruit would be at least orange, pink, rosy, or some tempting color. Nobody wants to eat snow—white fruit. Verse 10: "And he said unto me: What desirest thou?" As Nephi spoke to him, "he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord [now we are using some sort of double talk; as I said, we are in another dimension]; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another." And he says, "Look," and "I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white." Why do they use white? Well, I just went to the dictionary to consult white. I could think of a lot of [synonyms], but they think of a lot more here. In Arabic there's an expression that means, "may God cheer him," or "may God show him favor." Literally, it says, "bayyaḍ Allāhu, may God whiten his countenance." Another one is, "he is white of face," which simply means, "he is of good character," or "he is a good person." In the Book of Mormon it says the Nephites were "white and delightsome" and the others were "dark and loathsome." It means white in this sense, in the sense of good character. But it is the regular word for white. You ask for the al-bayaḍ, who is the white man of the place? That means the "foremost man, the most respected man." If he is white, he is most respected. What are ayyām al-bayāḍ, "days of whiteness?" They are "happy days, days of prosperity." I guess it would be the beliye nochi in Moscow, "the white nights…Then this is an interesting thing: Here is yad baydāʾ. Baydāʾ is the regular feminine. (Colors are always a defective form.) It means "the white hand," which means beneficence, power, favor, merit, glory. And there are two kinds of men. The human race is divided into al-sūdānu and al-bayḍānu. The sūdānu are the black ones, and the bayḍānu are the white ones. Well, that wouldn't be natural in a culture where people are either outdoors or indoors. You know in Greek paintings, of which we have thousands, all the men, being outdoors, are always painted a dark bronze; and all the women, staying indoors and keeping white lead on their faces, are always white. It's a cultural thing with members of the same race. So we get this idea of the contrast between the good guys and the bad guys, called black and white. This is important, this white business.” http://maxwellinstit...116&chapid=1332

I could go on and on and on with this but sometimes when I am dealing with a Captain of Nephite armies without an eye, I feel a bit like Job in that my skin is black upon me and my bones are burned with heat.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Kemara

[bcuzbcuz]

Or are they trying to be vile, sickening, offensive, revolting, disgusting – in a word loathsome?

So in direct answer to your ethnocentric question “You think that Polynesians like to be considered “loathsome” by white people?” in this context, absolutely they do. They not only like it, but they value it, aspire to it, seek it, desire it and learn how to do it as part of their culture.

Overall I find your tone of response offensive and aggressive. Furthermore, you attempt to make the word and quality of loathsome into something to be aspired to. You will have to do better than merely showing a video and asking if we, the audience, view it as loathsome. How about posting something that quotes native persons or peoples from anywhere, Polynesia, New Zealand, North America, Central America or South America wherein they describe themselves as "loathsome" and use the word as a 'positive' attribute?

Are you native yourself? Do you use 'loathsome' as a defining characteristic of your own behavior?

I can think of situations where I could call a person a "dirty, filthy pig" and that person would respond "I sure am!" but in moments of sobriety the name calling is not considered a compliment. There is a reason that 'loathsome' has been dropped from scripture, probably because it is such a hard sell to convince anyone that it actually means something wonderful.

[Kemara]

How about posting something that quotes native persons or peoples from anywhere, Polynesia, New Zealand, North America, Central America or South America wherein they describe themselves as "loathsome" and use the word as a 'positive' attribute?

You did not watch the first video clip did you?

[Scott Lloyd]

Kemara, you are hilarious!

Well done. Bravo!

[Kemara]

Kemara, you are hilarious!

Well done. Bravo!

Edited November 9, 2012 by Kemara

[Cobalt-70]

Here is an example of some Maori on the international sporting stage playing the greatest game on earth (a little ethnocentric, I know) and trying hard to be considered loathsome by their white opponents.

It is disturbing that you find these Polynesian displays an expression of "loathsomeness." I don't think you understand what they are doing at all, and frankly, it's rather offensive. These are displays of war-like prowess and domination over their opponents. These people are not trying to show people how ugly and revolting they are. That you seem to think this makes me sad.

[Kemara]

It is disturbing that you find these Polynesian displays an expression of "loathsomeness." I don't think you understand what they are doing at all, and frankly, it's rather offensive. These are displays of war-like prowess and domination over their opponents. These people are not trying to show people how ugly and revolting they are. That you seem to think this makes me sad.

You did not watch the first video clip did you? You did not listen to the explanation, provided by a widely respected Maori elder, of what the cultural practice means and represents did you? Your offence is borne of complete and total ignorance of the matter. Your explanation of my cultural practice is based on ethnocentric stereotyping and assumption. Your continual denial of the meaning of my cultural practice is offensive. Your continual attempt to reshape my culture into your terms is offensive. That you would think that you know more about my culture than I do is beyond arrogance. That you continue to act in such a bigoted manner makes me sad for you.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Kemara

[Calm]

" I don't think you understand what they are doing at all, and frankly, it's rather offensive.

Talk about offensive. Telling Kemara he doesn't understand his own people and heritage and you know so much better. Have you ever been to New Zealand or talked to a Maori about his cultural practices before?

Maybe you should go back and reread this post to remind you who you are talking to:

Edited November 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Off topic..

Kemara, I remember you posting a picture of a wonderful Maori lady (royalty?) quite some time back (not the vid of your Auntie I linked to..she was in formal dress for a formal portrait) but it appears to have been lost in one of the upgrades...or my brain is atrophying worse than I thought. Is my memory correct and if so how about reporting it so I can enjoy it again.

Edited November 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Just had a chance to finally watch the vids while the grand kids got a last few minutes of Lego play in.

I bet you are one ugly man, Kemara!

Great videos, it would make for much more interesting parade reviews if our military did something like that.

[Kemara]

I bet you are one ugly man, Kemara!

:rofl:

[mfbukowski]

Part One.

LOL, oh you are just too funny. For starters do you think ALL westerners think the same way you do? Talk about ethnocentric! Secondly, this is a total straw man, you are arguing against a position that was not offered. Finally, please point out to me where I offered any position or opinion on this thread about Native Americans except the following:

Cobalt, you really need to think about putting in a little more effort and it would also be great if you could address what I actually wrote instead of addressing what you are pretending I wrote.

I almost spat my food out over my key board I laughed so hard when I read this. First, let’s see what I actually said instead of what you are pretending I said:

Despite your carefully cropped quotes and attempted misrepresentation of my position you have in fact not strayed too far from the truth. Now I understand that someone like yourself is going to find it difficult to believe that “Polynesians like to be considered “loathsome” by white people” but you don’t need to take my word for it.

Please watch the following video clip. I would recommend watching from at least 0:28 and pay particular attention to what is being said from 1:16. I understand that this may well be offensive to your elitist world view, but you really need to come to terms with the fact that your world view is not the view of the entire world. You could try getting out a bit more.

Now try watching the following video clip. I would recommend you watch the whole thing. Fair warning though, there may be a couple of things in here that from a non-Maori cultural lens could be viewed as disturbing. No foul language…well none that you could understand anyway.

This event took place a couple of years ago in response to a visit from government officials, and just so you know Cobalt, since it seems so important to you to make the distinction, the government officials were white. Please ask yourself if what the Maori are doing is meant to give the impression, to these white people, that they are a “delightful” bunch of happy chaps out for a Sunday stroll. Are they trying to appear as clean cut, handsome, dainty, savory, reasonable, good ole’ knock around guys? Do you see anyone playfully punching someone else on the shoulder and saying “awww shucks dude, let’s go grab a root beer float, apple pie and watch bombs bursting in air”? Or are they trying to be vile, sickening, offensive, revolting, disgusting – in a word loathsome?

So in direct answer to your ethnocentric question “You think that Polynesians like to be considered “loathsome” by white people?” in this context, absolutely they do. They not only like it, but they value it, aspire to it, seek it, desire it and learn how to do it as part of their culture.

Finally, did you notice that some of the Maori had painted themselves white? Why do you think they did this? Do you think (in the view of the Maori not your ethnocentric view) that painting themselves white increased or lessened their purpose of appearing loathsome? White and loathsome? Good grief Cobalt!

They won't let me use the words necessary to praise this enough here! Golly- those fellows are just spiffy!

That would be enough to scare the... stuffing out of anyone!

Edited November 10, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

It is disturbing that you find these Polynesian displays an expression of "loathsomeness." I don't think you understand what they are doing at all, and frankly, it's rather offensive. These are displays of war-like prowess and domination over their opponents. These people are not trying to show people how ugly and revolting they are. That you seem to think this makes me sad.

Straight up?

You are just plain missing it. Just plain 180 degrees off the mark. It's hard to use the words necessary without violating board rules.

[mfbukowski]

You did not watch the first video clip did you? You did not listen to the explanation, provided by a widely respected Maori elder, of what the cultural practice means and represents did you? Your offence is borne of complete and total ignorance of the matter. Your explanation of my cultural practice is based on ethnocentric stereotyping and assumption. Your continual denial of the meaning of my cultural practice is offensive. Your continual attempt to reshape my culture into your terms is offensive. That you would think that you know more about my culture than I do is beyond arrogance. That you continue to act in such a bigoted manner makes me sad for you.

Just for the record, your meaning is clear and has been from the beginning. I got it instantly and agree with you completely. Some are just dense I guess but it is not due to your manner of presentation- I found it crystal clear.