Lamanite Identities

[Deardorff]

Churches are not apologetic institutions.

Their goal and objective is not to be overly concerned with historical data.

The LDS church has been and will always be an institution of faith.

I agree, they are not overly concerned with historical data. When one teaches they have the truth one does not expect fables. Why the leadership constantly emphasizes Truth but tells fables and outright lies is something I will never understand. The BS of 'it is not pertinent to you salvation' is just that... BS. Joseph Smith taught that all Truth is part of the Gospel and gaining knowledge is important. Much I see today does not square with what was taught by the early leaders of the Church. So much so that what is taught today can easily be called 'leading the members astray' compared to what Joseph and the early leaders taught.

Today I hear from the pulpit excuses and platitudes rather than teaching what used to be considered the truth. The emphasis on belief and obedience is inexcusable. Follow a leader even when you know they are wrong and you will be blessed for it? This is what enables the Hitlers of the world to do their worst. [Godwins violation read the board guidelines before posting - ARES]

Edited November 13, 2012 by Ares

[Kemara]

This is what enables the Hitlers of the world to do their worst.

Godwins law, great job angry man. Did Cobalt send you to this thread in order to get it shut down?

[Pahoran]

I agree, they are not overly concerned with historical data. When one teaches they have the truth one does not expect fables.

How binary is your thinking? Everything's either verified historical data or fables? In what universe?

Why the leadership constantly emphasizes Truth but tells fables and outright lies is something I will never understand.

I'm not going to get caught up in an argument about "fables" because that's nothing more than your own assumptions; but CFR, please, that "the leadership" tell "outright lies."

In the absence of proof for that accusation, the only "outright lies" in view are found in your post.

The BS of 'it is not pertinent to you salvation' is just that... BS. Joseph Smith taught that all Truth is part of the Gospel and gaining knowledge is important. Much I see today does not square with what was taught by the early leaders of the Church. So much so that what is taught today can easily be called 'leading the members astray' compared to what Joseph and the early leaders taught.

Examples, please?

Today I hear from the pulpit excuses and platitudes rather than teaching what used to be considered the truth.

Excuse me, from which pulpit? Given that you are an active, proselyting anti-Mormon demagogue, why should you expect us to believe that you bother listening to anything said from any LDS pulpit, much less take it seriously enough to consider its message?

Snip Godwin's Law violation. I suggest you read the forum rules.

The Book of Mormon is supposed to be "History". Nothing of these great populations has been found. Faith is fine but faith in something that looks more and more like a fairy tale should be relegated to the same place as belief in Santa Claus once you grow old enough to see reality.

Thank you for your opinion. For what it is worth.

I have seen the reality of Deardorff, and it is this: you are an unashamed anti-Mormon rabble-rouser.

By your own admission.

Regards,

Pahoran

[blackstrap]

I wonder if a member of the "Hell's Angels" is proud to display his fearsomeness and be recognized as a loathsome type.Nah,they are just big kitty-cats.

Edited November 13, 2012 by blackstrap

[volgadon]

I have seen the reality of Deardorff, and it is this: you are an unashamed anti-Mormon rabble-rouser.

By your own admission.

Wow. If this is true, speaks volumes to the sad level of ignorance in American politics, not to mention dishonest and bigotted demagoguery.

[Kemara]

I wonder if a member of the "Hell's Angels" is proud to display his fearsomeness and be recognized as a loathsome type.Nah,they are just big kitty-cats.

I am not going to link directly to the documentary video clips, but I provided the URL for anyone who wants to see how traditional Maori culture has been adopted in some ways by the modern Maori gang culture. It is very interesting viewing, BUT it does contain some FOUL language (hence my not linking directly to it). Video clip one from 5:22 - 6:10 and video clip five from 0:30 - 1:18 goes some way to show how modern Maori gang culture still values looking ugly and acting in a manner considered loathsome by others.

worldwideweb.spareroom.co.nz/2008/05/05/video-ross-kemp-on-gangs-in-new-zealand/

Edited November 13, 2012 by Kemara

[Tacenda]

I agree, they are not overly concerned with historical data. When one teaches they have the truth one does not expect fables. Why the leadership constantly emphasizes Truth but tells fables and outright lies is something I will never understand. The BS of 'it is not pertinent to you salvation' is just that... BS. Joseph Smith taught that all Truth is part of the Gospel and gaining knowledge is important. Much I see today does not square with what was taught by the early leaders of the Church. So much so that what is taught today can easily be called 'leading the members astray' compared to what Joseph and the early leaders taught.

Today I hear from the pulpit excuses and platitudes rather than teaching what used to be considered the truth. The emphasis on belief and obedience is inexcusable. Follow a leader even when you know they are wrong and you will be blessed for it? This is what enables the Hitlers of the world to do their worst. [Godwins violation read the board guidelines before posting - ARES]

I gave a point despite the wrath I might get from it in some people's minds. Because I believe the church needs to continue bringing up true history maybe in seminary or in some future curriculum for the people like me that were hurt by not knowing certain subjects, yea I know some naive people, but think that once they've been taught by someone who has that authority, it might be helpful. I'm sorry people Fairlds isn't going to cut it. Not everyone knows about Fair.

[Ares]

Discussion the proper role of authority in the LDS Church is appropriate. Comparing it to the Hitlers of the world is not.

[Pahoran]

I gave a point despite the wrath I might get from it in some people's minds.

You gave a point because you approve of what he wrote. No need to explain farther.

Because I believe the church needs to continue bringing up true history maybe in seminary or in some future curriculum for the people like me that were hurt by not knowing certain subjects, yea I know some naive people, but think that once they've been taught by someone who has that authority, it might be helpful. I'm sorry people Fairlds isn't going to cut it. Not everyone knows about Fair.

There are a lot of things not everyone knows about.

Now tell us, Tacenda: do you know what the mission of the Church is?

Do you think that mission should be changed?

How does teaching academic history fit into that mission?

Thanks,

Pahoran

[Calm]

Wow. If this is true, speaks volumes to the sad level of ignorance in American politics, not to mention dishonest and bigotted demagoguery.

If it isn't true, how strange for him to boast of it.

[volgadon]

If it isn't true, how strange for him to boast of it.

It also makes his Hitler reference doubly ironic, considered the way other groups were demonised by their propogandists.

[mfbukowski]

I am not going to link directly to the documentary video clips, but I provided the URL for anyone who wants to see how traditional Maori culture has been adopted in some ways by the modern Maori gang culture. It is very interesting viewing, BUT it does contain some FOUL language (hence my not linking directly to it). Video clip one from 5:22 - 6:10 and video clip five from 0:30 - 1:18 goes some way to show how modern Maori gang culture still values looking ugly and acting in a manner considered loathsome by others.

The attitude transcends culture once you put it in this context. You see guys like this all over sections of LA complete with facial tattoos and prison tattoos they are proud to wear all with all the same attitudes.

Clearly they prize being "loathsome" for the same reason. Intimidation is of course the key.

Edit: LA street gang tattoos- very reminiscent of the function of Maori tattoos. You don't even have to watch the video- the opening shot makes the point. Very mild nudity around 1:15 and thereafter.

[media=]

Edited November 13, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Wow. If this is true, speaks volumes to the sad level of ignorance in American politics, not to mention dishonest and bigotted demagoguery.

I don't doubt it's truth for a moment. Have you noticed that one of our favorite fundamentalist EV's has been rather scarce of late? He's been busy.

If you go to the Institute for Religious Research's website (I won't link to it) and click on the home page section on "Mormonism", then in the left column find "Mormon News" you will find an entire page of links about Romney's Mormonism complete with links to texts of the endowment ceremony.

You want bigotted demogoguery? You need go no farther that right here.

[Tacenda]

You gave a point because you approve of what he wrote. No need to explain farther.

There are a lot of things not everyone knows about.

Now tell us, Tacenda: do you know what the mission of the Church is?

Do you think that mission should be changed?

How does teaching academic history fit into that mission?

Thanks,

Pahoran

Tell that to the Fairlds board. They are defending the faith through putting out true history and defending it. Should they quit and just mention the 4 item mission statement and tell the investigator or longtime member to just move along and disregard the history?

[Kemara]

Tell that to the Fairlds board. They are defending the faith through putting out true history and defending it. Should they quit and just mention the 4 item mission statement and tell the investigator or longtime member to just move along and disregard the history?

FAIR have a different mission than the Church, I would have thought that was rather obvious.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Godwins law, great job angry man. Did Cobalt send you to this thread in order to get it shut down?

I am pretty sure it was Ronald that sent him in. Rofl.

[Kemara]

I am pretty sure it was Ronald that sent him in. Rofl.

:rofl:

[Pahoran]

This:

FAIR have a different mission than the Church, I would have thought that was rather obvious.

Tacenda, I have no quarrel with the suggestion that Church members should be interested in, and willing to discuss, the history of the Church. I simply disagree with the notion that it's the Church's particular responsibility. I also adamantly reject the manipulative propaganda claim that if the Church doesn't pay enough attention to the tiny little set of historical factoids with which our critics are particularly obsessed, then it is dealing in "fables" instead.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Tacenda]

This:

Tacenda, I have no quarrel with the suggestion that Church members should be interested in, and willing to discuss, the history of the Church. I simply disagree with the notion that it's the Church's particular responsibility. I also adamantly reject the manipulative propaganda claim that if the Church doesn't pay enough attention to the tiny little set of historical factoids with which our critics are particularly obsessed, then it is dealing in "fables" instead.

Regards,

Pahoran

But it is the churches responsibility, since they say that we should only read church approved materials. You probably aren't saying people should find out things on the internet anywhere but LDS.org but the only way they find out the whole truth and story is when they venture onto other sites that may be anti. If people on this board can deal with the truth and not waiver, why not the rest of LDS population?

[Kemara]

...since they say that we should only read church approved materials.

CFR that "they" say we should only read church approved materials.

[Pahoran]

But it is the churches responsibility, since they say that we should only read church approved materials.

I join with Kemara's CFR on this. Do they? Where?

Are you sure you're not conflating the teaching materials we are supposed to use in Church classes with what members are encouraged to read in their own time? Because you know, the two things are not the same.

You probably aren't saying people should find out things on the internet anywhere but LDS.org but the only way they find out the whole truth and story is when they venture onto other sites that may be anti. If people on this board can deal with the truth and not waiver, why not the rest of LDS population?

Your question seems to presuppose that the internet circumscribes the boundaries of where anyone should or could look. Why is that?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Tacenda]

I join with Kemara's CFR on this. Do they? Where?

Are you sure you're not conflating the teaching materials we are supposed to use in Church classes with what members are encouraged to read in their own time? Because you know, the two things are not the same.

Your question seems to presuppose that the internet circumscribes the boundaries of where anyone should or could look. Why is that?

Regards,

Pahoran

Well anytime you don't peruse the LDS.org sight for information it is questionable by people in the church for authenticity.

[Calm]

FAIR have a different mission than the Church, I would have thought that was rather obvious.

As a FAIR member, I completely endorse this statement.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well anytime you don't peruse the LDS.org sight for information it is questionable by people in the church for authenticity.

I am not even sure what this means.

Ill just leave it at that.

[Calm]

, since they say that we should only read church approved materials.

CFR