Lamanite Identities

[Kemara]

One does that when they are covering things up or to avoid being caught in lies.

Are you sure these are the only possible options?

[Bikeemikey]

I am still waiting for the Brethren to produce a verifiable "Lamanite".

A population of two distinct groups who warred and had periods of piece and intermixing with great cities, industries and agriculture finally ending when one exterminated the other would leave a lot of evidence. Nothing from them has been found and church leadership apparently won't or can't address the reality of this. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and even Spencer Kimball spoke about who these people were but today no one can find any of them as they back off from anything definitive when asked.

One does that when they are covering things up or to avoid being caught in lies.

Churches are not apologetic institutions.

Their goal and objective is not to be overly concerned with historical data.

The LDS church has been and will always be an institution of faith.

[Pahoran]

It is disturbing that you find these Polynesian displays an expression of "loathsomeness." I don't think you understand what they are doing at all,

Cobalt,

Thanks for the entertainment. You've been owned so comprehensively that you don't even know it.

Here's a suggestion: switch on brain before engaging keyboard.

Regards,

Pahoran

[volgadon]

Cobalt,

Thanks for the entertainment. You've been owned so comprehensively that you don't even know it.

Here's a suggestion: switch on brain before engaging keyboard.

Regards,

Pahoran

What would you know about it, you are only from New Zealand.

[Pahoran]

Are you sure these are the only possible options?

Well, Deardorff is. As he proudly boasted in a now closed thread, he is an anti-Mormon demagogue and bigot.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

What would you know about it, you are only from New Zealand.

Exactly. It's sort of like expecting you to know more about Russians and Israelis because of where you live and have lived. Actual experience can never measure up to the superior knowledge imparted by holding certified Politically Correct attitudes.

Regards,

Pahoran

[mfbukowski]

Exactly. It's sort of like expecting you to know more about Russians and Israelis because of where you live and have lived. Actual experience can never measure up to the superior knowledge imparted by holding certified Politically Correct attitudes.

Regards,

Pahoran

Not to mention Wikipedia.

[Cobalt-70]

You did not watch the first video clip did you? You did not listen to the explanation, provided by a widely respected Maori elder, of what the cultural practice means and represents did you? Your offence is borne of complete and total ignorance of the matter. Your explanation of my cultural practice is based on ethnocentric stereotyping and assumption. Your continual denial of the meaning of my cultural practice is offensive. Your continual attempt to reshape my culture into your terms is offensive. That you would think that you know more about my culture than I do is beyond arrogance. That you continue to act in such a bigoted manner makes me sad for you.

Sorry, didn't know you were Maori. But then again, you seem to be telling me that these displays are an indication that your people are "dark and loathsome." You know more than I do that this is about domination and striking fear in the opponent. If you go the extra step and said, perhaps in the name of disfunctional religion, that this practice makes your people "loathsome," then would you not, by definition, be self-loathing?

Second question: Given that the Book of Mormon describes the "loathsomeness" of the Lamanites in very negative terms, do you believe that the Haka--which you seem to be saying is an expression of Maori loathsomeness--will disappear when the Maori supposedly change from "dark and loathsome" to "white/pure and delightsome"?

Edited November 12, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Cobalt-70]

What on earth does this have to do with how the Maori view the world? You wont hear Maori describe themselves in negative or derogatory terms either. Maori dont view those terms as negative or derogatory in certain contexts. It is you who is placing a negative connotation on the words, it is not how Maori see it. They view those terms as postive and favorable, as something to be admired, something to obtain, something of immense value. My appreciation of the terminology comes from these experiences.

Exactly. Unless you are self-loathing, you do not consider Maori practices are something to be loathed. Nor would you, or any Maori, see the practice of the Haka, as a manifestation of the curse of the Lamanites that supposedly made them dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, and full of abominations. So I don't see why you are trying to convince us all that your people are "dark and loathsome."

[Calm]

you do not consider Maori practices are something to be loathed

They are to be "loathed" by others, not by the Maori themselves.

[Kemara]

Part 1 of 2

Cobalt, Cobalt, Cobalt, you really are making this too easy. I suggest you listen to a sage bit of advice that Pahoran was kind enough to offer you.

Now let me give you a bit of friendly advice. In the future when you find that you have been as soundly thrashed as you have been on this thread don’t go about committing logical fallacies in a hopeless attempt to save face. Instead just say, “I was wrong, I retract my statement(s)”. That will take you a long way in avoiding further humiliation, much like the humiliation that is going to land in your lap over the next few minutes.

Unless you are self-loathing, you do not consider Maori practices are something to be loathed.

As has been necessary with your other posts, let us see what was actually said and what I was responding too, instead of what you are pretending was said:

Are you serious? You think that Polynesians like to be considered "loathsome" by white people?

That was you wasn’t it Cobalt? That is what you said wasnt it? Is there a different Cobalt floating around here somewhere? “Officer, arrest that imposter! Arrest him on charges of changing the goal posts!” I think I will call the imposter Ronald, because like Reagan he thinks facts are stupid things. This statement by you and/or Ronald was the statement that I responded too. I responded with my own explanation, quotes from you off this thread (including the one immediately above), video clips including one that had commentary by a widely respected Maori elder. How you missed what I was responding too is beyond me. How you arrived at the "self-loathing" conclusion is a complete mystery to everyone except perhaps Ronald and whoever helped you move those goals posts such a large distance.

…Nor would you, or any Maori, see the practice of the Haka, as a manifestation of the curse of the Lamanites that supposedly made them dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, and full of abominations.

Let’s have a look at the context in which I presented my position instead of what you are pretending I presented. If you are going to continually try and move the goal posts, because your original position has been well and truly debunked, you are going to have to do a better hob at hiding it.

For many Maori there was much about the Lamanites that they were not only able to identify with but could admire and respect. There were many Maori in the past and many today who are proud to refer to themselves as Lamanite (whether they are in fact Lamanite is another story).

Which was a reply I made in response to a couple of statements made by you….or the mysterious Ronald:

I have never quite understood why people would ever be pleased to call themselves a "Lamanite." …Why would anyone want to be a member of any group that fits that description?

…if I were a Native American or Polynesian…I can't imagine anyone being thrilled to embrace this view and claim this darkness and loathsomeness as their own heritage.

Following this I specifically dealt with the issue of how Maori felt about appearing and being referred to loathsome:

In various contexts looking loathsome is something aspired to by some Polynesians - aspired too and valued.

Being morally offended at my position you take me to task because apparently no one in their right minds would aspire to appear as loathsome. Your vilification of me culminated in a statement that I have already used in this post, but it really does bear repeating.

Are you serious? You think that Polynesians like to be considered "loathsome" by white people?

So who said anything about Maori seeing or not seeing the practice of the Haka or any other practice as a manifestation of the curse of the Lamanites? Where on earth did you get this from? You are no longer just changing the goal posts you are throwing out a hallelujah red herring.

In response to the actual issue, I go and round up some evidence of the fact that in various contexts Maori like to be considered loathsome by white people. Foolishly thinking that you would actually watch and listen to the evidence I thought that would be the end of the matter. While the evidence was of a high enough standard, judging by the response of several posters, you failed to engage it and instead came up with this monstrosity:

It is disturbing that you find these Polynesian displays an expression of "loathsomeness." I don't think you understand what they are doing at all, and frankly, it's rather offensive. These are displays of war-like prowess and domination over their opponents. These people are not trying to show people how ugly and revolting they are. That you seem to think this makes me sad.

What was disturbing was that fact that you didn’t look at the evidence, you simply carried on with the same nonsensical ethnocentric bigotry, inferring something along the lines of, “Those Maori couldn’t possibly think the way Kemara has described, the only possible way they could think is the way I think.” Ronald strikes again.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Kemara

[Kemara]

Part 2 of 2

Which brings us to your latest offerings:

Unless you are self-loathing, you do not consider Maori practices are something to be loathed.

Forgetting the illogical nature of this gem, please point out where I ever claimed anything of the sought. As already pointed out in Part 1, I was responding to your statement:

Are you serious? You think that Polynesians like to be considered "loathsome" by white people?

As pointed out by Calmoriah in her response to your above gem:

They are to be "loathed" by others…

Which is exactly the point is it not? Anybody who actually read what I wrote and watched and listened to the video clips I posted, particularly the first one, could not help but draw the same conclusion as Calmoriah.

This also extends to the point I have been making all along, and you have been denying all along, that Maori view these things as valuable and desirable. While you can’t understand or imagine how anyone can look favourably on being labelled a Lamanite, when Lamanites are referred to in the Book of Mormon as a loathsome people, the Maori can and the Maori do.

Actually I may be mistaken about your understanding and imaginations because even though at one point you said:

I have never quite understood why…

and

…I can't imagine anyone…

just a few short days later and suddenly your ignorance had made a 180 degree turn.

The problem is that I actually can imagine people people identifying with the "dark and loathsome" Lamanites…

That is truly impressive, the turn-around of all turn-arounds; the about face of all about faces. All you need now is a coat to go with that turn.

You also completely blew off an excellent point made by Scott Lloyd:

In making this remark, Cobalt either forgets or purposely ignores the fact that at certain times in the Book of Mormon narrative, the Lamanites were the righteous and noble people in contrast to the Nephites.

Can you imagine that Native Americans, Polynesians and Maori would be pleased to call themselves Lamanite as described in the Book of Mormon in these terms?

So I don't see why you are trying to convince us all that your people are "dark and loathsome."

LOLOLOL, oh that is wonderful, it really is!!! I literally hurt my ribs from laughing so hard. Of course any person who actually read what I wrote would know that I am not trying to prove any such thing. This is a straw man of your own imagination, go beat him up Cobalt, go hard, do a Haka, that’ll scare him.....dont forget to be as loathsome as you possibly can while doing it.

Sorry, didn't know you were Maori.

What exactly are you sorry for? If you are sorry because of your bigotry then why are you only sorry now? Shouldn’t you have avoided it even if there were no Maori participating? If you are sorry for your outrageous acts of arrogance and patronising ignorance then why are you only sorry now? Shouldn’t you have avoided these things even if there were no Maori participating?

What possible difference does it make that I am Maori? How does that affect the facts of this issue? You were wrong, I was right, whatever my race or culture is has no bearing. I could have been born and raised in Luxembourg to the whitest Europeans to ever walk the earth and I still would have been correct and you still would have been Ronald......oops, I mean wrong.

But then again, you seem to be telling me that these displays are an indication that your people are "dark and loathsome."

LOLOLOL, oh my...my my my my the humour just never ends. Please show me one instance, just one single instance where I indicated this. Just in case you are not aware, it is fairly standard practice to actually read what someone wrote before commenting on it. Perhaps this is a behaviour you should adopt.

Second question: Given that the Book of Mormon describes the "loathsomeness" of the Lamanites in very negative terms, do you believe that the Haka--which you seem to be saying is an expression of Maori loathsomeness--will disappear when the Maori supposedly change from "dark and loathsome" to "white/pure and delightsome"?

Cobalt, if it wasn’t already obvious that you didn’t really read anything I posted in response to your nonsense, this ridiculous statement sure makes it so. Your arrogance seems to know no bounds and please dont get me started on Ronald.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Kemara

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

LOLOLOL, bcuzbcuz you are so funny!!! :rofl: Thanks, that bit of humourous entertainment has given me a great laugh and made my day. :rofl:

Dont you get sick of the thought and word police sometimes?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Finally, did you notice that some of the Maori had painted themselves white? Why do you think they did this? Do you think (in the view of the Maori not your ethnocentric view) that painting themselves white increased or lessened their purpose of appearing loathsome? White and loathsome? Good grief Cobalt!

I enjoyed this quite a bit. Esp the part about eating other people.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Part 2 of 2

What exactly are you sorry for? If you are sorry because of your bigotry then why are you only sorry now? Shouldn’t you have avoided it even if there were no Maori participating? If you are sorry for your outrageous acts of arrogance and patronising ignorance then why are you only sorry now? Shouldn’t you have avoided these things even if there were no Maori participating?

What possible difference does it make that I am Maori? How does that affect the facts of this issue? You were wrong, I was right, whatever my race or culture is has no bearing. I could have been born and raised in Luxembourg to the whitest Europeans to ever walk the earth and I still would have been correct and you still would have been Ronald......oops, I mean wrong.

I needed a good laugh today. This has been quite entertaining. Too bad I don't have such a way with words. That is ok though I must have a different mission in life, one that does not involve words. Carry on.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Cobalt-70]

So who said anything about Maori seeing or not seeing the practice of the Haka or any other practice as a manifestation of the curse of the Lamanites? Where on earth did you get this from? You are no longer just changing the goal posts you are throwing out a hallelujah red herring.

If justifying the "dark and loathsome" language in the Book of Mormon is not what this is about, then why are you so intent on proving that the purpose of the Haka is to make Maori "loathsome" to white people?

The Haka is irrelevant to the Book of Mormon curse. This curse was designed to make Lamanites dark-skinned, and therefore so ugly that Nephites would be so repulsed from having sex with them. How does that even have anything to do with the Haka, and why did you bring this up?

[Cobalt-70]

Which is exactly the point is it not? Anybody who actually read what I wrote and watched and listened to the video clips I posted, particularly the first one, could not help but draw the same conclusion as Calmoriah.

...

Cobalt, if it wasn’t already obvious that you didn’t really read anything I posted in response to your nonsense, this ridiculous statement sure makes it so. Your arrogance seems to know no bounds and please dont get me started on Ronald.

I watched your videos. It's just that I did not see in them anything that supports the idea that the Haka has anything whatsoever to do with the Maori allegedly being a "dark and loathsome people." And again, if you disagree that the Maori are (or were) "dark and loathsome," then why are we even having this conversation?

[Cobalt-70]

They are to be "loathed" by others, not by the Maori themselves.

They don't want to be loathed. They want to be feared. There is a difference between "fear" and "loathing," which is why "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" isn't a redundant title. If I loathe you, that means I find you disgusting and despicable. If I fear you, that means that I want to run away whenever I see you, because you might hurt me. Yes, fear might make my sick to my stomach, but I can still have great respect for something I fear. I can have no respect for something I loathe.

[mfbukowski]

This curse was designed to make Lamanites dark-skinned, and therefore so ugly that Nephites would be so repulsed from having sex with them.

Holy cow! If I didn't see it with my own eyes I wouldn't believe it.

Your "true colors" are showing.

[Kemara]

Holy cow! If I didn't see it with my own eyes I wouldn't believe it.

We differ slightly on this, I wouldnt have needed to see it to believe it, I have been dealing with people like Cobalt the greater part of my life and it is to be expected.

[Kemara]

If justifying the "dark and loathsome" language in the Book of Mormon is not what this is about, then why are you so intent on proving that the purpose of the Haka is to make Maori "loathsome" to white people?

It is quite simple really, and I know you know answer, because you have previously responded in a manner that required you to understand my position. Initially you said:

I have never quite understood why people would ever be pleased to call themselves a "Lamanite."

I responded to this by telling you why people would be pleased to call themselves Lamanite and how some people thought that being loathsome in some contexts was a desirable thing.

Why are you now trying to change the purpose of my posts? Why are you pretending to not understand what part of your ethnocentric blabber I responded too when you have previously demonstrated that you did understand? I know that no one likes to be as soundly beaten as you have been, but you are making it worse and worse for yourself. Your last minute Hail Mary's are doing nothing but making you look even worse - yes, it is possible!

The Haka is irrelevant to the Book of Mormon curse. This curse was designed to make Lamanites dark-skinned, and therefore so ugly that Nephites would be so repulsed from having sex with them. How does that even have anything to do with the Haka, and why did you bring this up?

Whoever said it was relevant? The purpose of my posts, as you well know, was to show that…

In various contexts looking loathsome is something aspired to by some Polynesians - aspired too and valued.

You vehemently denied that my position was correct.

Are you serious? You think that Polynesians like to be considered "loathsome" by white people?

I provided evidence for my position and because of the overwhelming nature of that evidence you are now trying to retroactively change the nature of our discussion. You are going to have to do better than the red herrings, changing the goal posts and straw men fallacies that you have been using. It's probably best for you to just admit you were wrong because I can keep this up forever and a day if you make me and I will not be misrepresented by the likes of you.

I watched your videos. It's just that I did not see in them anything that supports the idea that the Haka has anything whatsoever to do with the Maori allegedly being a "dark and loathsome people."

Please stop pretending this discussion has been about anything other than me addressing your position that no one would be pleased to call themselves Lamanite.

So you watched the videos did you? That is interesting because after allegedly watching them you said:

These people are not trying to show how ugly and revolting they are.

Was the sound turned on? Are you hard of hearing? I only ask because you must have missed the part where the Maori elder said:

To us the ugliest man is the most handsome.

I even went to the trouble of telling you exactly what part of that video clip to listen too. No good deed goes unpunished it seems while nothing is beneath you it seems.

They don't want to be loathed. They want to be feared.

Here we go again, why are you continuing to pretend to know something you have no idea about. They want to be loathed and feared. It is their loathsomeness and willingness to do loathsome things that generates fear. How is trying to make oneself as ugly as possible, without accompanying demonstrations of loathsomeness, supposed to induce fear? I have known some ugly people and none of them managed to induce fear in me. Perhaps you scare easily though, which is why you cant understand this point.

All the above is really just a rehashing of Part 1 and Part 2 of my most recent post on this thread. I suppose its a good thing that I have provided a more simplified version because it doesnt seem like you can cope with detailed issues.

Now that is quite enough questioning from you. I have taken the time to answer your questions in several posts. I have also asked you a number of questions which you have offensively ignored. Answer them before asking anything else.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Kemara

[mfbukowski]

We differ slightly on this, I wouldnt have needed to see it to believe it, I have been dealing with people like Cobalt the greater part of my life and it is to be expected.

I don't think I could take it. I would be punching people out on a daily basis and would probably end up in prison.

Edited November 13, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I dunno what is sadder, the fact that Cobalt keeps going and changing the goal posts or the fact that he doesn't recognize how badly he has been pooned. I mean I have not seen something this great since the old board with the discussion of the word "Adieu" and how even if the BoM was a fraud, Adieu could not count against it because the word its self is was found in the english dictionary in the early 1800's.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't think I could take it. I would be punching people out on a daily basis and would probably end up in prison.

Well, brother, that is why you and I do not have that burden to bear.

[Scott Lloyd]

I dunno what is sadder, the fact that Cobalt keeps going and changing the goal posts or the fact that he doesn't recognize how badly he has been pooned.

My hunch is that the moving of the goal posts is part of a fruitless effort to escape the ignominy of defeat. At any rate, there comes a point where a gracious concession is in one's own best interest.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Scott Lloyd