Lamanite Identities

[Scott Lloyd]

Check out the White Handbook, Special Mission Rules, specifically rule #14 on page 14. It state: Read only Church published books and magazines unless directed otherwise by your mission president.

It mentions reading "wholesome literature." We were allowed to do that during "culture evenings."

But this is irrelevant to the discussion anyway, because Tacenda was not speaking of the very limited and temporary context of a full-time mission when she made her comments about reading "non-approved" literature.

[bcuzbcuz]

You had a bathroom sink, and therefore probably a bathroom, you had running water which was sometimes warm and you had at least three shirts and three pairs of garments (I say three pairs because I am assuming you didnt wash your clothes while naked). Considering the suffering that existed throughout the world at the time you lived in luxury, I hope you were grateful for it. I bet that most of the time you even ate food once per day, perhaps more. Millions of people would have been envious of your life.

Once again you misread my text. I wasn't trying to portray any hardships but merely to define the rules of our mission. No, we didn't always have indoor plumbing. It just meant we had to go down a few flights of stairs into the inner courtyard to the outhouse. our mission rules gave us no prep day, nor even prep hours. We couldn't do our laundry in the in- house laundry facilities unless we proselytized at the same time, virtually impossible, as I described. And yes we ate almost every day. We were allowed $ 100 per month as living expenses. By the end of the month it could be shadow soup. ( you hold a hen over a pot of boiling water and cook the shadow for ten minutes)

But as to the subject at hand we were forbidden to read anything other than scriptures, lesson plans, church scripture commentary and church magazines, period.

[Scott Lloyd]

Once again you misread my text. I wasn't trying to portray any hardships but merely to define the rules of our mission. No, we didn't always have indoor plumbing. It just meant we had to go down a few flights of stairs into the inner courtyard to the outhouse. our mission rules gave us no prep day, nor even prep hours. We couldn't do our laundry in the in- house laundry facilities unless we proselytized at the same time, virtually impossible, as I described. And yes we ate almost every day. We were allowed $ 100 per month as living expenses. By the end of the month it could be shadow soup. ( you hold a hen over a pot of boiling water and cook the shadow for ten minutes)

But as to the subject at hand we were forbidden to read anything other than scriptures, lesson plans, church scripture commentary and church magazines, period.

Bcuzbcuz describes extremely draconian conditions, including no preparation day. Yet the handbook to which I linked has an entire section devoted to discussion of preparation day. Which just goes to show that the conditions he describes pertaining to his mission do not reflect mine.

[bcuzbcuz]

I served from 1974 to 1976.

I wasn't there in the mid-sixties, but Sweden today is not a Third World country, nor was it in the mid-1970s, when I was there. In each of the apartments where I lived and served, we had access to laundry facilities, and no one resented our using them. The other residents of the apartment buildings just weren't that hostile.

With the mission presidents I served under (Folkersen and the two Oscarson brothers), we were allowed to take one "culture evening" per month. In most of the smaller towns where we served, there wasn't much else to do on such occasions other than go to the library.

I didn't say I spent a lot of time reading non-Church literature. But there is a big difference between not having time to do something and being expressly forbidden to do it.

This is a ridiculous concept. There is a whole universe of things that could not be included in a tiny handbook that were not forbidden. The handbook didn't say anything about going to the local Domas grocery store to buy our food, but it certainly wasn't forbidden.

I never said Sweden was anything close to a third world country, but in Karlskrona our room had no washing facilities at all, except cold running water in the kitchen, a commons outhouse.....very chilly on a winters night. We went to the Karlskrona bath house once a month for a real scrub down, literally. They had attendants who came in with floor scrub brushes, like horse brushes, and scrubbed a layer of skin off your back. You only felt the true effect of it when you jumped into the ice cold pool outside.

Our room in Sundbyberg had a bathtub but the landlady turned off the warm water if she thought it had run too much.

Our mission president sent out 10 BofM's every week, postförskott, at 5 kronor each, regardless whether you had sold the previous ten or not. I remember having 42 unsold books in our room and not a penny for food ( that represented 210 kr out of a total budget of 500kr) My companion called his Mom and she called the mission president and she apparently laid down the law and the mission home sent out three elders to sell our books.

Not saying you lived under the same circumstances, but your Domus reference to things explicitly forbidden shows an inability to understand something other than your own reality.

If you read rule 14, page 14 , you'll see that non- church literature was specifically forbidden.

[Scott Lloyd]

If you read rule 14, page 14 , you'll see that non- church literature was specifically forbidden.

Unless directed otherwise by your mission president. I've already told you, our mission presidents allowed the reading of wholesome literature during culture evenings.

But as I said, the specialized rules in a mission environment don't apply anyway to the broader discussion about whether Church members under all circumstances and at all times are discouraged or forbidden from reading material that is not so-called "Church-approved." In short, you are derailing the thread with your quibbling. Stop it.

[Tacenda]

Unless directed otherwise by your mission president. I've already told you, our mission presidents allowed the reading of wholesome literature during culture evenings.

But as I said, the specialized rules in a mission environment don't apply anyway to the broader discussion about whether Church members under all circumstances and at all times are discouraged or forbidden from reading material that is not so-called "Church-approved." In short, you are derailing the thread with your quibbling. Stop it.

Totally get that a mission is different. I've apologised and see that my words, the words that started the debate, have an effect, good & bad. This time they didn't convey the truth in reality for everyone just my reality. Hopefully the OP has hope to continue now. Edited November 15, 2012 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

Totally get that a mission is different. I've apologised and see that my words have an effect, good & bad. This time they didn't convey the truth in reality for everyone just my reality. Hopefully the OP has hope to continue now.

Thank you, Tacenda.

[volgadon]

It mentions reading "wholesome literature." We were allowed to do that during "culture evenings."

But this is irrelevant to the discussion anyway, because Tacenda was not speaking of the very limited and temporary context of a full-time mission when she made her comments about reading "non-approved" literature.

Today, at least, it is up to the mission president's discretion, and this was also true during the 90s. Personally, I read several classics in Russian which improved not only my grasp of the language, but also of the culture and mindset. Helped me connect with Russians, who could see that I wasn't some distant foreigner, but someone who deeply appreciated their culture (which I do). Pushkin, of course, but also works little known in the West such as the hilariously brilliant Ilf and Petrov. Still, the policies on reading are up to the mission presidents, so I doubt there is some kind of universal policy.

[Scott Lloyd]

Today, at least, it is up to the mission president's discretion, and this was also true during the 90s.

That was the impression I had back in the '70s as well.

[mfbukowski]

I took a three month camping trip and hitch hiked through Europe in the 70's, traveling as lightly and cheaply as possible to make the money last, with a tent and a backpack and washed every night in cold water and washed my other pair of underwear and clothes every night by hand and thought it was great fun.

I guess it's all in your attitude.

[Scott Lloyd]

I took a three month camping trip and hitch hiked through Europe in the 70's, traveling as lightly and cheaply as possible to make the money last, with a tent and a backpack and washed every night in cold water and washed my other pair of underwear and clothes every night by hand and thought it was great fun.

I guess it's all in your attitude.

The conditions described by bcuzbcuz made me wonder if he was in Sweden at about the time of the so-called "Norrlanders Rebellion." This legend was still circulating through the mission even after I arrived many years later.

According to the stories, the mission president at the time was very heavy-handed and oppressive in his policies. An example of his behavior: He would send boxes of copies of the Book of Mormon to each missionary companionship at regular intervals, whether they were needed or not. This resulted in huge overstocks of books that the missionaries were expected to pay for, whether they could resell them or not. The intent, of course, was to force them to work harder to move the inventory of books.

Finally, missionaries in the northern part of the mission — Norrland — became so fed up that they staged a mutiny of sorts, with blatant displays of disobedience to mission rules as a form of protest. The situation got so bad, the Church was obliged to send a General Authority to settle things down.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the legend, but if even part of it is true, it strikes me as a case study in the folly of unrighteous dominion.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[bcuzbcuz]

The conditions described by bcuzbcuz made me wonder if he was in Sweden at about the time of the so-called "Norlander's Rebellion." This legend was still circulating through the mission even after I arrived many years later.

According to the stories, the mission president at the time was very heavy-handed and oppressive in his policies. An example of his behavior: He would send boxes of copies of the Book of Mormon to each missionary companionship at regular intervals, whether they were needed or not. This resulted in huge overstocks of books that the missionaries were expected to pay for, whether they could resell them or not. The intent, of course, was to force them to work harder to move the inventory of books.

Finally, missionaries in the northern part of the mission — Norland — became so fed up that they staged a mutiny of sorts, with blatant displays of disobedience to mission rules as a form of protest. The situation got so bad, the Church was obliged to send a General Authority to settle things down.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the legend, but if even part of it is true, it strikes me as a case study in the folly of unrighteous dominion.

I was there during the time of the rebellion. We heard about it only much later, after several missionaries were sent home. The mission president at the time did exactly as you state. My very first companion and I had 42 BofM's on our shelves that we had paid for but couldn't "move". I stated elsewhere how the issue was resolved for us, but if a GA ever came to Sweden over the issue is, I think, an urban myth.

I remember one ZL boasting about how he sold 30 books on one afternoon and crowed in his weekly letter to the president, "please send more books!". (all this was posted in our weekly letters from the president.) The ZL apparently wrapped the books in gift wrapping and got people to buy the book unseen...as a Christmas present. (he told me that story himself)

When I heard the story of the Norrland rebellion I wasn't surprised. The mission president served out his term, not all the missionaries did. My companion and I went very hungry for many weeks as did many others. If it hadn't been for members inviting us home for family dinners we would have ended up even hungrier.

[Tacenda]

I was there during the time of the rebellion. We heard about it only much later, after several missionaries were sent home. The mission president at the time did exactly as you state. My very first companion and I had 42 BofM's on our shelves that we had paid for but couldn't "move". I stated elsewhere how the issue was resolved for us, but if a GA ever came to Sweden over the issue is, I think, an urban myth.

I remember one ZL boasting about how he sold 30 books on one afternoon and crowed in his weekly letter to the president, "please send more books!". (all this was posted in our weekly letters from the president.) The ZL apparently wrapped the books in gift wrapping and got people to buy the book unseen...as a Christmas present. (he told me that story himself)

When I heard the story of the Norrland rebellion I wasn't surprised. The mission president served out his term, not all the missionaries did. My companion and I went very hungry for many weeks as did many others. If it hadn't been for members inviting us home for family dinners we would have ended up even hungrier.

This probably wouldn't fly now! The old adage "without purse or script" sure seems to have been some of your experience!

[Scott Lloyd]

I was there during the time of the rebellion. We heard about it only much later, after several missionaries were sent home. The mission president at the time did exactly as you state. My very first companion and I had 42 BofM's on our shelves that we had paid for but couldn't "move". I stated elsewhere how the issue was resolved for us, but if a GA ever came to Sweden over the issue is, I think, an urban myth.

I remember one ZL boasting about how he sold 30 books on one afternoon and crowed in his weekly letter to the president, "please send more books!". (all this was posted in our weekly letters from the president.) The ZL apparently wrapped the books in gift wrapping and got people to buy the book unseen...as a Christmas present. (he told me that story himself)

When I heard the story of the Norrland rebellion I wasn't surprised. The mission president served out his term, not all the missionaries did. My companion and I went very hungry for many weeks as did many others. If it hadn't been for members inviting us home for family dinners we would have ended up even hungrier.

It should have been the mission president who was released and sent home. If I had been the parent of a missionary under those circumstances, I would have been on the horn to the Missionary Department.

Who was the mission president? Was he ever persuaded that he was out of line?

How did you resolve the situation?

Edited November 15, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

This probably wouldn't fly now! The old adage "without purse or script" sure seems to have been some of your experience!

The correct terminology is "without purse or scrip".

Purse and scrip in this context both mean bag. A purse is a money bag, and a scrip is a type of bag that ancient Palestinian shepherds used to carry their belongings.

(Sorry. I'm in an ****-retentive mood today. I've already corrected some folks on their spelling over on another thread.)

[Nathair/|\]

The correct terminology is "without purse or scrip".

Purse and scrip in this context both mean bag. A purse is a money bag, and a scrip is a type of bag that ancient Palestinian shepherds used to carry their belongings.

(Sorry. I'm in an ****-retentive mood today. I've already corrected some folks on their spelling over on another thread.)

Wasn't that the period of the old Rainbow discussions that were supposed to be completely memorized and presented word for word? If that's the case, they definitely had a script. (with the "T")

[Tacenda]

The correct terminology is "without purse or scrip".

Purse and scrip in this context both mean bag. A purse is a money bag, and a scrip is a type of bag that ancient Palestinian shepherds used to carry their belongings.

(Sorry. I'm in an ****-retentive mood today. I've already corrected some folks on their spelling over on another thread.)

Oops, my bad. Hey, they could have had a script too ya know. Something to help them with the lessons perhaps?

Edit: Just saw that Nathair and I were thinking alike, haha!

Edited November 15, 2012 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

Oops, my bad. Hey, they could have had a script too, ya know. Something to help them with the lessons perhaps?

As Nathair points out above, we had just such "scripts" in the old days.

[Scott Lloyd]

Wasn't that the period of the old Rainbow discussions that were supposed to be completely memorized and presented word for word? If that's the case, they definitely had a script. (with the "T")

This would have predated even the "rainbow discussions," which we had during my era in the '70s.

But yes, the discussions were definitely scripted in those days.

[canard78]

Even if what you say is true, I showed you the handbook that was in place when I served my mission, so your remark, "Any of them who are RMs are also incorrect when they say they have 'never been told to only read church approved material' and could also be called on to retract their statement" cannot apply to me, not does it necessarily apply to "any of them who are RMs".

Moreover, you must have had me in mind when you made this remark, as it seems to apply directly to a post that I alone made on this thread.

Hi, I can't edit the original post but have edited the latest one with the wikipedia link in it to acknowledge that those serving under the 70s version didn't have this instruction.

As mentioned, I'm not trying to prove that there is a church instruction to only read church-authorised materials. But I'm interested in understanding where misconceptions come from. I think even Prophets are susceptible to misconceptions, which is why I take current day Lamanite identities with a pinch of salt.

I had a bit more of a dig into why people might get the (incorrect) impression that church encourages avoidance of non-approved sources for gospel study. Again, this isn't a way of showing the church advises against any use of authorised materials - but it's easy to see how some might get the impression (or even preach from the local pulpit) that non-authorised materials are inappropriate for all gospel study.

"As Church members, we are asked to prayerfully prepare Church lessons and activities. We are to seek personal revelation from the Lord and study Church materials and instructions. We can counsel with our presidencies or committees and seek advice from priesthood leaders as we strive to meet the needs of those we serve. The scriptures are an invaluable resource.

"But we may be tempted to do more, to turn to unofficial lesson plans, resources and information found in books and on the Internet."

"No matter how brilliant he may be and how many new truths he may think he has found, he has no right to go beyond the program of the Church"

"I have sometimes observed teachers who gave the designated chapter no more than a casual mention and then presented a lesson and invited discussion on other materials of the teacher's choice. That is not acceptable."

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/58411/Use-proper-sources.html

"I was ultimately led back to the precise Sunday School answers I had been trying to avoid. I found the answers to my challenges by reading the scriptures, praying daily, serving my family and others, and attending the temple and my Sunday meetings. I learned that those simple things make the difference between enduring and enduring well and with patience. The Sunday School answers really are the best answers."

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/10/sunday-school-answers?lang=eng

Teach the Doctrine

Teachers and leaders use the scriptures, the teachings of latter-day prophets, and approved curriculum materials to teach and testify of the doctrines of the gospel. Approved curriculum materials for each class or quorum are listed in the current Instructions for Curriculum. As needed, teachers and leaders supplement curriculum materials with Church magazines, particularly the general conference issues of the Ensign andLiahona.

http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/the-work-of-salvation-in-the-ward-and-stake?lang=eng#5.5.4

Again, this is intended as a development discussion to the OP about 'impressions.' It's reasonable that Polynesians get the impression that they are Lamanites - even though there's no canonized doctrine saying so.

[Kemara]

It's reasonable that Polynesians get the impression that they are Lamanites - even though there's no canonized doctrine saying so.

I think it is important to note that not all Polynesian LDS (currently, or in previous generations) believed that they were Lamanite or any manner of -ite.

[Scott Lloyd]

Hi, I can't edit the original post but have edited the latest one with the wikipedia link in it to acknowledge that those serving under the 70s version didn't have this instruction.

Since you and I had our conversation, bcuzbcuz has pointed out a passage to me in the '70s handbook that had escaped my notice to the effect that missionaries were counseled to read only Church-published books and magazines. But it does contain the caveat "unless otherwise directed by your mission president." My clear memory is that my mission presidents (I served under three at separate times) would not have forbidden us from occasionally looking at literature not published by the Church. I therefore stand by my statement that I have never been forbidden as a Church member from exploring non-Church-published material.

As mentioned, I'm not trying to prove that there is a church instruction to only read church-authorised materials. But I'm interested in understanding where misconceptions come from. I think even Prophets are susceptible to misconceptions, which is why I take current day Lamanite identities with a pinch of salt.

I had a bit more of a dig into why people might get the (incorrect) impression that church encourages avoidance of non-approved sources for gospel study. Again, this isn't a way of showing the church advises against any use of authorised materials - but it's easy to see how some might get the impression (or even preach from the local pulpit) that non-authorised materials are inappropriate for all gospel study.

"As Church members, we are asked to prayerfully prepare Church lessons and activities. We are to seek personal revelation from the Lord and study Church materials and instructions. We can counsel with our presidencies or committees and seek advice from priesthood leaders as we strive to meet the needs of those we serve. The scriptures are an invaluable resource.

"But we may be tempted to do more, to turn to unofficial lesson plans, resources and information found in books and on the Internet."

"No matter how brilliant he may be and how many new truths he may think he has found, he has no right to go beyond the program of the Church"

"I have sometimes observed teachers who gave the designated chapter no more than a casual mention and then presented a lesson and invited discussion on other materials of the teacher's choice. That is not acceptable."

http://www.ldschurch...er-sources.html

"I was ultimately led back to the precise Sunday School answers I had been trying to avoid. I found the answers to my challenges by reading the scriptures, praying daily, serving my family and others, and attending the temple and my Sunday meetings. I learned that those simple things make the difference between enduring and enduring well and with patience. The Sunday School answers really are the best answers."

http://www.lds.org/e...nswers?lang=eng

Teach the Doctrine

Teachers and leaders use the scriptures, the teachings of latter-day prophets, and approved curriculum materials to teach and testify of the doctrines of the gospel. Approved curriculum materials for each class or quorum are listed in the current Instructions for Curriculum. As needed, teachers and leaders supplement curriculum materials with Church magazines, particularly the general conference issues of the Ensign andLiahona.

http://www.lds.org/h...?lang=eng#5.5.4

If the assertion had been that Latter-day Saints are told to only use Church-authorized material in the preparation and presentation of lessons in Church, I would have had no quarrel with it. But I'm sure you can see that what one uses to prepare Church lessons and what one elects to use for personal study and enrichment are separate and distinct.

But I think we have moved past that now, as Tacenda has retracted her assertions.

Again, this is intended as a development discussion to the OP about 'impressions.' It's reasonable that Polynesians get the impression that they are Lamanites - even though there's no canonized doctrine saying so.

I will just mention here in passing that I am not so eager as some to jettison the traditional understanding of what constitutes a Lamanite identity. To me, the inevitability of geometric expansion in descendancy makes it quite likely that descendancy stemming from Lehi would have spread itself throughout the length and breadth of the Americas — and perhaps even the islands of the Pacific — within not very many generations. I don't see that a limited-geography theory about the Book of Mormon narrative precludes that.

[bcuzbcuz]

Since you and I had our conversation, bcuzbcuz has pointed out a passage to me in the '70s handbook that had escaped my notice to the effect that missionaries were counseled to read only Church-published books and magazines. But it does contain the caveat "unless otherwise directed by your mission president." My clear memory is that my mission presidents (I served under three at separate times) would not have forbidden us from occasionally looking at literature not published by the Church. I therefore stand by my statement that I have never been forbidden as a Church member from exploring non-Church-published material.

If the assertion had been that Latter-day Saints are told to only use Church-authorized material in the preparation and presentation of lessons in Church, I would have had no quarrel with it. But I'm sure you can see that what one uses to prepare Church lessons and what one elects to use for personal study and enrichment are separate and distinct.

I will just mention here in passing that I am not so eager as some to jettison the traditional understanding of what constitutes a Lamanite identity. To me, the inevitability of geometric expansion in descendancy makes it quite likely that descendancy stemming from Lehi would have spread itself throughout the length and breadth of the Americas — and perhaps even the islands of the Pacific — within not very many generations. I don't see that a limited-geography theory about the Book of Mormon narrative precludes that.

You had asked who the mission president was who had such draconian measures and treatment of the missionaries. It took awhile for me to find my old books. Fletcher was the president, from Billings, Montana, and (wow the memories this all brings back) I remember him talking about a book he wrote or was going to write, which we were allowed to read.

Best i leave all that behind me. But the members were fantastic. For that I thank you, for awakening very fine memories.

[Scott Lloyd]

You had asked who the mission president was who had such draconian measures and treatment of the missionaries. It took awhile for me to find my old books. Fletcher was the president, from Billings, Montana, ...

I'm certain I would not have fared well under a martinet like that. I can see how blessed I was to have the mission presidents I did have, all of whom were kind and able leaders and great men who richly influenced my life.

The first one, Folkersen, has gone on to his reward. The other two, Richard and Paul Oscarson, have just concluded simultaneous service as temple presidents, Richard in St. Louis and Paul in Stockholm. (They are St. Louis natives.)

I remember him talking about a book he wrote or was going to write, which we were allowed to read.

It might have been this one. (I found the listing on Google Books).

Edited November 16, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

My son remarked about his first MP that he went out expecting to have another father and ended up getting another high school principal. He had grown up listening to his father talk about his wonderful MPs and looked forward to having the same. Thankfully his second one was more in accord with what he was looking for; however, I think it was one of the many experiences that helped teach my son that he is responsible for what he gets out of life, not some authority figure.