Lamanite Identities

[rodheadlee]

Coming from New Zealand, an isle of the sea, I think you will find this logic a little flawed. You can basically swim from island to island from Singapore to just north of Australia, from there seasonal winds and currents will put you right on the Polynesian islands, and from there New Zealand. Getting from South America or Central America to those same islands is a real big maritime adventure.

It's against the winds and the currents, see the charts, they don't have monsoons in Polynesia. I could throw a bottle in the water in CA or northern SA and it would wind up in Polynesia. I understand it's against conventional wisdom to think the Islands were populated from the Americas to Polynesia rather than Asia to Polynesia. I'm just saying I don't think that is 100% true because it's against the prevailing winds and currents.

[rodheadlee]

I don't have a problem believing the Melanesians migrated from Asia but I have problem believing the Polynesians migrated from Asia. Look at this migration map. See the one thing wrong with it is the migration arrow from Tonga to Samoa to the Marquesas. This arrow needs to point the other direction to be in Harmony with the Earth. That run is over 2500 miles agains the seas, currents and winds. Even a bird knows better than to try that.

I quote a Maori for their affinity with the Earth. :"Consider also, the close affinity of our ancestors with the whole of the Creation; their relationship with the Earth and the skies, the lands and the seas, as well as with all the creatures of the Earth. A people living in and with Nature, rather than against Nature, as we do in these modern times."

That migration arrow needs to be extended from the Americas to the Marquesas and then point west to Samoa and Tonga.

[Cobalt-70]

Which makes more sense, populating the South Pacific Islands from the Central/ Americas or populating the Islands from Asia? I guess the general consensus is they were populated from Asia. To me as a sailor this is next to impossible. The trade winds blow from east to west from about 30*N to about 30*S. They blow from 15 to 35 kts year round with seas from 6 feet to 15 feet during non storm periods. North/South travel is possible but if you are going to travel from Asia to the Islands or the Americas you will have to do it in the roaring 40's unless you have motor powered vessel with 2500 mile range. There was a member that used to post on this, Handy I believe is his name. I think he was gathering eveidence of migrations from SA/CA to the Islands.

The trade winds died down and even reversed from November to January. There is no reason why they could not sail in both directions among the islands of the South Pacific without a motor. They just had to do it seasonally if they were going directly east-west.

Regardless of any navigation issues, the archaeological, genetic, and linguistic evidence doesn't lie. The Polynesians are most closely related from indigenous people in Taiwan. The history of the Polynesians and their ancestors is pretty well established. Their earliest ancestors were Chinese farmers that moved onto Taiwan around 6000-3000 BC. Some of their descendants were the Lapita people in Melanesia. Some Lapita people colonized Tonga and Samoa around 900 BC, and then Polynesian culture developed in the Tonga/Samoa region for several centuries. In the ADs they invented advanced catamarans that could sail long distances, even up-wind. So they colonized as far as French Polynesia, and then made it to Hawaii, Eastern Island, New Zealand, probably South America (where they picked up the sweet potato and brought it back with them), and possibly according to Maori legend even Antarctica.

[Cobalt-70]

Why do you assume dark has to do with skin color?...

Because 2 Ne. 5:21 says that the "skin of blackness" came upon them so that they "might not be enticing unto my people" (the white Nephites). In other words, the "skin of blackness" supposedly made them both "dark" and "loathsome."

[The Nehor]

Because 2 Ne. 5:21 says that the "skin of blackness" came upon them so that they "might not be enticing unto my people" (the white Nephites). In other words, the "skin of blackness" supposedly made them both "dark" and "loathsome."

No. The skin marked the difference. They were dark and loathsome because they were warring savages bent on conquest.

[Lamanite]

Cool post cobalt!

[rodheadlee]

The trade winds died down and even reversed from November to January. There is no reason why they could not sail in both directions among the islands of the South Pacific without a motor. They just had to do it seasonally if they were going directly east-west.

That's a good story bro. I've sailed those waters from the Marquesas to Tahihti to Samoa. I spent 2 whole years waiting for those elusive westerlie spells so I could sail back.

Edited to ad: If you read this story http://maaori.com/people/maoriara.htm carefully you will see they believe what the scholars have told them about their origins. Their legends don't go back that far and they are not certain of their origin or destination except it be with the Creator.

Edited October 18, 2012 by rodheadlee

[why me]

Yes, but if I were a Native American or Polynesian, I would have a problem with any book that I believed was calling my ancestors "dark and loathsome"--and by extension, calling myself dark and loathsome because my skin color is exactly the same as my ancestors. For those who subscribe to this theory, what has really changed, to make modern Native Americans and Polynesians not dark and loathsome, whereas their ancestors were? I can't imagine anyone being thrilled to embrace this view and claim this darkness and loathsomeness as their own heritage.

Or you may have it all wrong. Here is an interesting piece about skin color in the bible and book of mormon:

http://www.blacklds.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/How-to-reach-African-Americans.pdf

The page makes an interesting read.

[why me]

Cool post cobalt!

Maybe the post was not so cool:

http://www.blacklds....n-Americans.pdf

I think that you may find this interesting. He discusses skin color further down the page. Since skin color seems to change almost instantly in the book of mormon, for example, in 3 nephi 2:15, the chances of it refering to skin color is probably not accurate.

Edited October 18, 2012 by why me

[sunstoned]

Which makes more sense, populating the South Pacific Islands from the Central/ Americas or populating the Islands from Asia? I guess the general consensus is they were populated from Asia. To me as a sailor this is next to impossible. The trade winds blow from east to west from about 30*N to about 30*S. They blow from 15 to 35 kts year round with seas from 6 feet to 15 feet during non storm periods. North/South travel is possible but if you are going to travel from Asia to the Islands or the Americas you will have to do it in the roaring 40's unless you have motor powered vessel with 2500 mile range. There was a member that used to post on this, Handy I believe is his name. I think he was gathering eveidence of migrations from SA/CA to the Islands.

There is very strong DNA evidence that the ancestors did come from Asia. The church has already changed the verbiage of the intro to the BoM because of this evidence. This is the direction things are headed.

[Cobalt-70]

Maybe the post was not so cool:

http://www.blacklds....n-Americans.pdf

I think that you may find this interesting. He discusses skin color further down the page. Since skin color seems to change almost instantly in the book of mormon, for example, in 2 nephi 2:15, the chances of it refering to skin color is probably not accurate.

We don't want it to refer to skin color, but lets be realistic about the worldview in which Joseph Smith was raised. I think it is way too much of a stretch to read race out of this passage, when everybody who reads it immediately understand it as racial. We need to completely change the language. There is precedent for that, because Joseph Smith deleted, added, and changed language from his revelations all the time.

[Cobalt-70]

That's a good story bro. I've sailed those waters from the Marquesas to Tahihti to Samoa. I spent 2 whole years waiting for those elusive westerlie spells so I could sail back.

You had two years to wait, but the Polynesian people had centuries to wait. And apparently, you just weren't very lucky, because others have readily-enough found westerly winds to sail from Samoa to Tahiti, even during the off-season when westerly winds are supposed to be rare.

It would have been quite a bit more challenging to make it all the way to South America and Easter Island. But they could use a different strategy. They just had to go south a while (which they sometimes did anyway, to get to New Zealand), where at some point the prevailing winds start going eastward. They could stop in South America, and then catch Easter Island on the way back.

[Lamanite]

I think FAIR posted this today. I haven't listened yet but it may be relevant to the discussion.

FAIR Cast 111 on DNA

Big UP!

Lamanite

[why me]

We don't want it to refer to skin color, but lets be realistic about the worldview in which Joseph Smith was raised. I think it is way too much of a stretch to read race out of this passage, when everybody who reads it immediately understand it as racial. We need to completely change the language. There is precedent for that, because Joseph Smith deleted, added, and changed language from his revelations all the time.

How would you understand 3 nephi 2:15:

15 And their ^acurse was taken from them, and their skin became ^bwhite like unto the Nephites;

Looking at the footnotes for white one can see that skin color was changing very fast if it were skin. However, I have a strange feeling that it referred to spiritual darkness or wickedness. And not skin color.

Edited October 18, 2012 by why me

[why me]

Because 2 Ne. 5:21 says that the "skin of blackness" came upon them so that they "might not be enticing unto my people" (the white Nephites). In other words, the "skin of blackness" supposedly made them both "dark" and "loathsome."

However, it seems that people had their skin changed in an instant in quite a few verses which of course would be impossible. I think that if you read the link that I sent, we can see a new explanation.

http://www.blacklds.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/How-to-reach-African-Americans.pdf

[Kemara]

Edited to ad: If you read this story http://maaori.com/people/maoriara.htm carefully you will see they believe what the scholars have told them about their origins. Their legends don't go back that far and they are not certain of their origin or destination except it be with the Creator.

Nope, not correct at all. What tribe, sub-tribe, status in each and qualification for education played a significant role in what one knew about the legends. Oral tradition on these matters varies from tribe to tribe, as does custom, law, lore and even language. Some tribes do indeed have legends that go back that far, their origin has a name and a description of the layout and features of the land as does the first, second and third destinations of their migration - all had long before the British invasion and even longer before the scholars turned up. Descriptions of their original homeland, passed down via oral tradition, played a role in the conversion of many Maori from the East Coast of New Zealand, not so much from the Northern area of New Zealand where the legends are a little different.

[CV75]

Yes, but if I were a Native American or Polynesian, I would have a problem with any book that I believed was calling my ancestors "dark and loathsome"--and by extension, calling myself dark and loathsome because my skin color is exactly the same as my ancestors. For those who subscribe to this theory, what has really changed, to make modern Native Americans and Polynesians not dark and loathsome, whereas their ancestors were? I can't imagine anyone being thrilled to embrace this view and claim this darkness and loathsomeness as their own heritage.

According to my loved ones who are in this category of ancestry, they take the attitude "that was them, then; this is us, now." You are likely a product of a small genetic pool of too-closely breeding Intermountain LDS with its own unique set of undesirable traits (and if not I could eventually find something amiss in the genetic line), and you could say the same thing. Doesn't matter if it is of scriptural recod or not.

[CV75]

We don't want it to refer to skin color, but lets be realistic about the worldview in which Joseph Smith was raised. I think it is way too much of a stretch to read race out of this passage, when everybody who reads it immediately understand it as racial. We need to completely change the language. There is precedent for that, because Joseph Smith deleted, added, and changed language from his revelations all the time.

Then let's change the language about Christ's ancestors Judah and David so that they were not cursed, either.

[rodheadlee]

Nope, not correct at all. What tribe, sub-tribe, status in each and qualification for education played a significant role in what one knew about the legends. Oral tradition on these matters varies from tribe to tribe, as does custom, law, lore and even language. Some tribes do indeed have legends that go back that far, their origin has a name and a description of the layout and features of the land as does the first, second and third destinations of their migration - all had long before the British invasion and even longer before the scholars turned up. Descriptions of their original homeland, passed down via oral tradition, played a role in the conversion of many Maori from the East Coast of New Zealand, not so much from the Northern area of New Zealand where the legends are a little different.

Well, I stand corrected. Do you have any links to any of these legends? Are there any legends that have an origin coming from the lands east? Are there any legends of the migration from Tonga to the Marquesas? It'll be a year or so before I can make it back down there. The only leg of this migration map I have a problem with is the run from Tonga to the Marquesas Islands.

[rodheadlee]

There is very strong DNA evidence that the ancestors did come from Asia. The church has already changed the verbiage of the intro to the BoM because of this evidence. This is the direction things are headed.

So has there been testing comparing Amerindian to Polynesian DNA?

[Cobalt-70]

How would you understand 3 nephi 2:15:

15 And their ^acurse was taken from them, and their skin became ^bwhite like unto the Nephites;

Looking at the footnotes for white one can see that skin color was changing very fast if it were skin. However, I have a strange feeling that it referred to spiritual darkness or wickedness. And not skin color.

The Book of Mormon (and the bible) is full of improbable and sometimes impossible things. If the Brother of Jared could literally move a mountain with the sound of his voice, then certainly a Lamanite's skin color can suddenly turn white she becomes righteous. If we are going to reject this miraculous change in skin color, lets reject it because it is racist, not because it is improbable.

[Cobalt-70]

Then let's change the language about Christ's ancestors Judah and David so that they were not cursed, either.

I'm not going to pretend that the bible doesn't have horrible racist material in it, but these examples aren't among them. There was no racial curse put upon Judah or David. The Jews, and the descendants of David, were not racially distinct from any other Canaanites of their era. The references to Judah are mainly about the possibly fictional man Judah as a personification of the tribe Judah. Thus, it is about politics, rather than race. The curse on David's house was political as well, not racial.

[Kemara]

Yes, but if I were a Native American or Polynesian... I can't imagine anyone being thrilled to embrace this view and claim this darkness and loathsomeness as their own heritage.

I take it that you are not Native American or Polynesian which is why you cant imagine doing exactly what tens of thousands of Polynesians (I cant speak for the Native Americans) have done.

[Kemara]

Do you have any links to any of these legends?

No sorry, not on hand. But I should be able to dig some up when I get my books out of the garage and onto my book shelves.

Are there any legends that have an origin coming from the lands east?

Yes, definately. There are also corresponding legends from the point of origin in at lest one of the lands from the east.

Are there any legends of the migration from Tonga to the Marquesas?

I have no idea, that is probably a question that should be directed at Lamanite who is Tongan.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Kemara

[Kemara]

dupe.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Kemara