DBMormon Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Doctrinally we are taught that all individuals who die before the age of accountability automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom.We also know agency is an eternal principle.Doesn't making every under 8 person have claim on the celestial glory taking away their agency.How can it be assured that every one of them, if left to accept Christ and his gospel, would choose to live the Doctrine of Christ. Would None of them have chosen rebellion?It seems to me unless God is stating that he has only allowed those of his children who were valiant in the pre-Mortal life ( a non doctrinal thought, I beleive) or those children who would absolutely choose to live the Gospel Law, then agency has been taken away from them. It also lends thoughts to the horrible disadvantage the rest of us are at having to prove our faithfulness.Any thoughts? Edited October 12, 2012 by DBMormon
JAHS Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 For some reason that only God knows, these children don't need the test of temptation for thier salvation; they only need a body.Joseph Fielding Smith said:"We must assume that the Lord knows and arranges beforehand who shall be taken in infancy and who shall remain on earth to undergo whatever tests are needed in their cases." (Joseph Fielding Smith" The Salvation of Little Children," Ensign, April 1977, p. 6.)In a Sermon given by Joseph Smith, Jr., March 20, 1842, refering to a young child that had just died he said:"The Lord takes many away even in infancy that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world--they were too lovely and too pure to live on earth. (The Words of Joseph Smith, pp. 106-109)They did have their agency in the pre-mortal life. But I guess because the Lord already knows that they would not sucumbe to temptation in this life there is no reason to test them.
CV75 Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 It seems to me unless God is stating that he has only allowed those of his children who were valiant in the pre-Mortal life ( a non doctrinal thought, I beleive) or those children who would absolutely choose to live the Gospel Law, then agency has been taken away from them. It also lends thoughts to the horrible disadvantage the rest of us are at having to prove our faithfulness.D&C 29:46-48: “But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten; Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me; For it is given unto them even as I will, according to mine own pleasure, that great things may be required at the hand of their fathers.” I take verse 48 to mean that the Lord can preserve the life or prevent the untimely death of any child if that child needs to be proved beyond arriving at the age of accountability. Otherwise He takes the child unto Himself. The same is true for any other non-accountable condition a child may be suffered to grow into beyond the age of eight. I realize this is quite a claim—that God can monitor all these lives—but I think it works this way.I see my extended life only as a blessing, not a disadvantage in proving my faithfulness. No matter how faithless I have ever been, the Lord has never left me and only preserved my life for my benefit, which I try to take full advantage of.
Freedom Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 I think that part of the answer is that this life is a probationary state and not the full scope of the trial. We came here to receive our bodies, but our time of testing started will before. There is also the teaching that parents will be given the opportunity to raise their children during the millenium so perhaps they will have another opportunity at mortality. For some this sounds like reincarnation.
Rob Osborn Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Definately some strained logic in our gospel. Every soul will have the opportunity to reach age of accountability and choose from there whether or not to accept Christ. No one is automatically granted celestial glory without the qualifying obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
Cobalt-70 Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Doctrinally we are taught that all individuals who die before the age of accountability automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom.We also know agency is an eternal principle.Doesn't making every under 8 person have claim on the celestial glory taking away their agency.How can it be assured that every one of them, if left to accept Christ and his gospel, would choose to live the Doctrine of Christ. Would None of them have chosen rebellion?It seems to me unless God is stating that he has only allowed those of his children who were valiant in the pre-Mortal life ( a non doctrinal thought, I beleive) or those children who would absolutely choose to live the Gospel Law, then agency has been taken away from them. It also lends thoughts to the horrible disadvantage the rest of us are at having to prove our faithfulness.Any thoughts?This doesn't seem to make sense under modern LDS theology, because that theology has changed since 1829 when the doctrine was first known from the translation of the Book of Mormon. We have lost some of the Protestant context that is necessary to understand the doctrine.The doctrine of infant salvation arose in the context of the idea that sin is caused by a depraved and corrupt nature that came upon the world as a result of the fall of Adam, which Protestants call original sin. Little children are redeemed from this fallen nature. Therefore, if they die before the age of accountability, they are innocent, and the effects of the fall are removed, so that they are perfect in Christ. They still have their agency, but they are not held accountable for any expressions of the carnal and sensual nature they inherited from Adam.It is difficult for modern Mormons to understand this doctrine, because it depends upon a theology of salvation by grace, whereas our religion has drifted into a theology of salvation by works aided by grace. Under our works-based theology, infant salvation makes no sense. We now believe that redemption from the fall of Adam is obtained by working hard to perfect ourselves (with the help of Christ's atonement). This contrasts with the earlier, more Protestant, idea within the Book of Mormon context that we are redeemed by allowing God to sanctify us and remove our sinful nature, so that good works follow as a natural consequence of our being redeemed from the fall.We don't truly believe anymore that God can sanctify a person to perfection through grace alone, even if that person is a child. Edited October 13, 2012 by Cobalt-70
Gillebre Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 I think you have it backwards, Cobalt. Our religion has a theology of salvation by grace, aided by works.Without grace, salvation is utterly and entirely impossible. No amount of works on our part will ever mean anything if the Savior's grace came second. Salvation is focused on grace, and the one whose grace makes it possible asks us to do as He commands, in exchange for it. 4
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 Doctrinally we are taught that all individuals who die before the age of accountability automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom.We also know agency is an eternal principle.Doesn't making every under 8 person have claim on the celestial glory taking away their agency.How can it be assured that every one of them, if left to accept Christ and his gospel, would choose to live the Doctrine of Christ. Would None of them have chosen rebellion?It seems to me unless God is stating that he has only allowed those of his children who were valiant in the pre-Mortal life ( a non doctrinal thought, I beleive) or those children who would absolutely choose to live the Gospel Law, then agency has been taken away from them. It also lends thoughts to the horrible disadvantage the rest of us are at having to prove our faithfulness.Any thoughts?They cannot be judged for sins they never committed, nor could not understand. Also those who die in infancy, do not die because they were to good for this world, they die because they are mortal.
Freedom Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 We don't truly believe anymore that God can sanctify a person to perfection through grace alone, even if that person is a child.Nobody should believe such nonsense because it is not found in any body of scripture. You are confusing salvation by grace, which is what the scriptures teach, and salvation by grace alone which what the protestants teach. Sanctification is not required if there is no sin. This notion of performing works because you are sanctified is not found in the scriptures.
Freedom Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 They cannot be judged for sins they never committed, nor could not understand. Also those who die in infancy, do not die because they were to good for this world, they die because they are mortal.Too little has been revealed on what happens to infants, any conclusions that are drawn are conjecture. many church leaders have expressed their opinion on the matter but until more revelation is presented, we only need to know that they will not be caste out for not receiving the necessary ordinances. it seems clear to me that all the ordinances are required so it makes sense that the little ones will be given opportunity to received them at some point.
Cobalt-70 Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 I think you have it backwards, Cobalt. Our religion has a theology of salvation by grace, aided by works.Without grace, salvation is utterly and entirely impossible. No amount of works on our part will ever mean anything if the Savior's grace came second. Salvation is focused on grace, and the one whose grace makes it possible asks us to do as He commands, in exchange for it.In the contemporary version of LDS soteriology, grace comes only after "all we can do." Thus, works are first, and grace is second. Grace is a supplement that fills the holes left by our inability to do everything by works. The LDS Bible Dictionary says that it is through grace that individuals "receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means." Thus, grace is viewed as God's assistance to help us perform saving works. 1
Cobalt-70 Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 Nobody should believe such nonsense because it is not found in any body of scripture. You are confusing salvation by grace, which is what the scriptures teach, and salvation by grace alone which what the protestants teach. Sanctification is not required if there is no sin. This notion of performing works because you are sanctified is not found in the scriptures.Sanctification is required even if there is no sin, because of the fall of Adam. According to Book of Mormon soteriology, because of the fall, we are in a state of depravity. We are carnal, sensual, and devilish even if we do not ourselves sin. That depraved nature is what we inherit from Adam.According to Alma 3:16: "And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you that they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins." This tells us several things: (1) Little children cannot sin. (2) Despite not being able to sin, they could not be saved were it not for grace. (3) The reason they could not be saved is that they inherit a fallen and sinful nature from Adam, but Christ's blood automatically atones for original sin.
DBMormon Posted October 13, 2012 Author Posted October 13, 2012 This doesn't seem to make sense under modern LDS theology, because that theology has changed since 1829 when the doctrine was first known from the translation of the Book of Mormon. We have lost some of the Protestant context that is necessary to understand the doctrine.The doctrine of infant salvation arose in the context of the idea that sin is caused by a depraved and corrupt nature that came upon the world as a result of the fall of Adam, which Protestants call original sin. Little children are redeemed from this fallen nature. Therefore, if they die before the age of accountability, they are innocent, and the effects of the fall are removed, so that they are perfect in Christ. They still have their agency, but they are not held accountable for any expressions of the carnal and sensual nature they inherited from Adam.It is difficult for modern Mormons to understand this doctrine, because it depends upon a theology of salvation by grace, whereas our religion has drifted into a theology of salvation by works aided by grace. Under our works-based theology, infant salvation makes no sense. We now believe that redemption from the fall of Adam is obtained by working hard to perfect ourselves (with the help of Christ's atonement). This contrasts with the earlier, more Protestant, idea within the Book of Mormon context that we are redeemed by allowing God to sanctify us and remove our sinful nature, so that good works follow as a natural consequence of our being redeemed from the fall.We don't truly believe anymore that God can sanctify a person to perfection through grace alone, even if that person is a child.I disagree. I believe the following completelyThis contrasts with the earlier, more Protestant, idea within the Book of Mormon context that we are redeemed by allowing God to sanctify us and remove our sinful nature, so that good works follow as a natural consequence of our being redeemed from the fall.We don't truly believe anymore that God can sanctify a person to perfection through grace alone, even if that person is a child.Assuming the individual is willing and has a desire to follow Christ in all things. As rebellion leads to losing grace
DBMormon Posted October 13, 2012 Author Posted October 13, 2012 In the contemporary version of LDS soteriology, grace comes only after "all we can do." Thus, works are first, and grace is second. Grace is a supplement that fills the holes left by our inability to do everything by works. The LDS Bible Dictionary says that it is through grace that individuals "receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means." Thus, grace is viewed as God's assistance to help us perform saving works.your taking things out of context and you are setting up a strawman.... the Doctrine is not after all we do, rather Nephi's quote is misused... I am not being baited into this again, my responses stop here.
treeface Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Doctrinally we are taught that all individuals who die before the age of accountability automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom.We also know agency is an eternal principle.Doesn't making every under 8 person have claim on the celestial glory taking away their agency.How can it be assured that every one of them, if left to accept Christ and his gospel, would choose to live the Doctrine of Christ. Would None of them have chosen rebellion?It seems to me unless God is stating that he has only allowed those of his children who were valiant in the pre-Mortal life ( a non doctrinal thought, I beleive) or those children who would absolutely choose to live the Gospel Law, then agency has been taken away from them. It also lends thoughts to the horrible disadvantage the rest of us are at having to prove our faithfulness.Any thoughts?I don't think we have the complete picture. I think their path is not as simple as it seems, and I think we are not as disadvantaged as it seems.Rob Osborn wrote a really interesting post in another thread that I think is applicable:http://www.mormondia...entry1209185864And, the Cliff Notes version:http://www.mormondia...entry1209185964
Cobalt-70 Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 your taking things out of context and you are setting up a strawman.... the Doctrine is not after all we do, rather Nephi's quote is misused... I am not being baited into this again, my responses stop here.I agree with you. I think Nephi's quote is misused, and that is my point.
The Nehor Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 I suspect that some made their calling and election sure before entering mortality. Many of them die young. Some do not. This is of course a dangerous idea if the proud get a hold of it.
DBMormon Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 I agree with you. I think Nephi's quote is misused, and that is my point.Then you have to stop saying that when a % of LDS mis-interpret a scripture that somehow that makes it the church's fault and is somehow doctrine.... Don't imply it. your saying "in the contemporary version of LDS soteriology" but that isn't acurate. It is a false view held by many members but is not the doctrine of the church nor do I think it is a view held by over 50% of active members
CV75 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Sanctification is required even if there is no sin, because of the fall of Adam. According to Book of Mormon soteriology, because of the fall, we are in a state of depravity. We are carnal, sensual, and devilish even if we do not ourselves sin. That depraved nature is what we inherit from Adam.According to Alma 3:16: "And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you that they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins." This tells us several things: (1) Little children cannot sin. (2) Despite not being able to sin, they could not be saved were it not for grace. (3) The reason they could not be saved is that they inherit a fallen and sinful nature from Adam, but Christ's blood automatically atones for original sin.I think you have to back up a little to verse 11 and read through verse 21.“For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have [category 1] fallen [become separated from God] by the transgression of Adam, [category 2] who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or [category 3] who have ignorantly [as opposed to willfully] sinned. …And even if it were possible that little children could [willfully] sin they could not be saved [by the law of Moses (see verse 15)]; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall [category 1], even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins [categories 2 and 3—covering them on all 3 points without having to demonstrate the steps in verse 21 to become blameless].”These verses teach that Christ saves the blameless, that little children are blameless, and the blameworthy can become blameless by becoming as little children by following Him; and that little children are the very model of blamelessness, or for “putting off the natural [or the willfully blameworthy “category 1”] man and becoming a saint through the atonement of Christ (verses 18, 19).” Nothing is really said of grace in relation to children in this chapter.
Bart Burk Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Doctrinally we are taught that all individuals who die before the age of accountability automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom.We also know agency is an eternal principle.Doesn't making every under 8 person have claim on the celestial glory taking away their agency.How can it be assured that every one of them, if left to accept Christ and his gospel, would choose to live the Doctrine of Christ. Would None of them have chosen rebellion?It seems to me unless God is stating that he has only allowed those of his children who were valiant in the pre-Mortal life ( a non doctrinal thought, I beleive) or those children who would absolutely choose to live the Gospel Law, then agency has been taken away from them. It also lends thoughts to the horrible disadvantage the rest of us are at having to prove our faithfulness.Any thoughts?What if in the end we're all really little children? When will God give up on us?
Ahab Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Doctrinally we are taught that all individuals who die before the age of accountability automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom.We also know agency is an eternal principle.Doesn't making every under 8 person have claim on the celestial glory taking away their agency.No. Why would you even consider the idea that it could? Try to spell out your reasoning out so that even a little child could understand what you mean.How can it be assured that every one of them, if left to accept Christ and his gospel, would choose to live the Doctrine of Christ.That's not the question, as I see it. The question should be: Why are they automatically considered as if they never committed any sin of their own?Would None of them have chosen rebellion?We're talking about little children who die before 8 years of age, so the issue isn't what would have happened if they had lived longer as mortals.God's judgment is based on what we have actually done, by our own free will, rather than on what we could have done.It seems to me unless God is stating that he has only allowed those of his children who were valiant in the pre-Mortal life ( a non doctrinal thought, I beleive) or those children who would absolutely choose to live the Gospel Law, then agency has been taken away from them.Their agency to choose between good and evil is based on them having a knowledge of good and evil, first, so if they didn't know the difference between good and evil they don't get judged as if they were people who did know the difference.It also lends thoughts to the horrible disadvantage the rest of us are at having to prove our faithfulness.Why do you consider it to be a disadvantage to have to show your faithfulness to God? Try considering it to be a challenge if not a blessing for you.Any thoughts?Yeah. What else would you like to know?
Cobalt-70 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Then you have to stop saying that when a % of LDS mis-interpret a scripture that somehow that makes it the church's fault and is somehow doctrine.... Don't imply it. your saying "in the contemporary version of LDS soteriology" but that isn't acurate. It is a false view held by many members but is not the doctrine of the church nor do I think it is a view held by over 50% of active membersI would disagree. I have never heard 2 Ne. 25:23 interpreted in any authoritative LDS Church setting except as saying that the atonement does not kick in until after we have expended our best efforts by doing good works. This interpretation is all over the lds.org website, including in the LDS Bible Dictionary. It's also in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism ("The Lord requires all persons to do all that they can do for themselves to obtain salvation.")
Rob Osborn Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Perhaps the revelation is out of context. It should mean that all who die before becoming accountable are saved from hell at the time of death. Every individual at some point must accept Christ, the gospel and must enter, on their own free will all the ordinances of the temple.
Cobalt-70 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I think you have to back up a little to verse 11 and read through verse 21.“For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have [category 1] fallen [become separated from God] by the transgression of Adam, [category 2] who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or [category 3] who have ignorantly [as opposed to willfully] sinned. …And even if it were possible that little children could [willfully] sin they could not be saved [by the law of Moses (see verse 15)]; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall [category 1], even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins [categories 2 and 3—covering them on all 3 points without having to demonstrate the steps in verse 21 to become blameless].”These verses teach that Christ saves the blameless, that little children are blameless, and the blameworthy can become blameless by becoming as little children by following Him; and that little children are the very model of blamelessness, or for “putting off the natural [or the willfully blameworthy “category 1”] man and becoming a saint through the atonement of Christ (verses 18, 19).” Nothing is really said of grace in relation to children in this chapter.Verse 21 says that in the last days, little children "shall be found blameless before God." But it does not say that they are blameless before God independently of the atonement of Jesus. Verse 16 says quite the opposite: that like everybody little children inherit Adam's fallen and sinful nature, and that "the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins."Like anybody, the only people that are blameless before God are those who have been sanctified by grace. Nobody is unaffected by the fall, even those who are not accountable and therefore cannot willingly sin. The difference between little children and the rest of us is that for little children, they cannot willingly sin and therefore grace is automatically given, whereas for the rest of us, we can sin and therefore grace comes "only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent." (v. 21)
CV75 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Verse 21 says that in the last days, little children "shall be found blameless before God."No way! It says, “that the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God [because none will not know the will of God concerning them or sin ignorantly—consistent with verse 11], except it be little children [as has always been the case], only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent. And even at this time [the same principle holds true; we don't have to wait until knowledge fills the earth] …according to the words which I have spoken unto thee [where children are held up as the standard for blamelessness, as has always been the case!].
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