Little Children Inherit The Celestial Kingdom

[CV75]

Like anybody, the only people that are blameless before God are those who have been sanctified by grace. Nobody is unaffected by the fall, even those who are not accountable and therefore cannot willingly sin. The difference between little children and the rest of us is that for little children, they cannot willingly sin and therefore grace is automatically given, whereas for the rest of us, we can sin and therefore grace comes "only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent." (v. 21)

But nowhere is grace mentioned in relation to the salvation of little children. It can be said that everything the Lord does is an expression of His grace, so perhaps in that sense only might His grace be justifiably construed to save them--but not in the same way that it saves the formerly blameworthy.

Edited October 16, 2012 by CV75

[Cobalt-70]

No way! It says, “that the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God [because none will not know the will of God concerning them or sin ignorantly—consistent with verse 11], except it be little children [as has always been the case], only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent. And even at this time [the same principle holds true; we don't have to wait until knowledge fills the earth] …according to the words which I have spoken unto thee [where children are held up as the standard for blamelessness, as has always been the case!].

My dispute with your argument is not whether or not little children are blameless, or held up as an example of humility. Clearly, the Book of Mormon says they are blameless, and clearly the Book of Mormon praises their humility. The question is whether or not they are blameless independently of the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon clearly says that they are not. It says that they, like everyone else in the world including those that died without law or sinned ignorantly, are naturally fallen and depraved because of the fall of Adam, and even if they cannot willfully sin, they are in need of an atonement. The Book of Mormon, and particularly Mosiah 3, is very clear that there is nobody that can escape the need for the grace of Jesus, including little children.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Cobalt-70]

But nowhere is grace mentioned in relation to the salvation of little children. It can be said that everything the Lord does is an expression of His grace, so perhaps in that sense only might His grace be justifiably construed to save them--but not in the same way that it saves the formerly blameworthy.

Verse 16 says, point blank, that "the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins." Then in the next verse, it says that "there is...no other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ." There is no way for little children to be saved except through the grace of Christ. Why? Because "by nature" they are fallen and depraved because of the fall of Adam.

This is consistent with the later passage Moroni 8:5, which says that "little children are alive in Christ." It is through God's grace that they are made "alive," despite their depraved human nature, that would would otherwise damn them. If they are held up by the Book of Mormon as an example, it is only because of the effect of God's grace upon them. By nature, they are depraved; but with God's grace, they are made humble and blameless before God.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[CV75]

My dispute with your argument is not whether or not little children are blameless, or held up as an example of humility. Clearly, the Book of Mormon says they are blameless, and clearly the Book of Mormon praises their humility. The question is whether or not they are blameless independently of the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon clearly says that they are not. It says that they, like everyone else in the world including those that died without law or sinned ignorantly, are naturally fallen and depraved because of the fall of Adam, and even if they cannot willfully sin, they are in need of an atonement. The Book of Mormon, and particularly Mosiah 3, is very clear that there is nobody that can escape the need for the grace of Jesus, including little children.

“Rinse and Repeat”

Verse 16: If children could sin (like we do) they could not be saved except through Christ (just like we are). But they are blessed (as are we) for as they fall (which they would do if they were blameworthy like us, as in “If little child could sin…”), even so the blood of Christ atones for their sins (like it does for us sinners).

Now with regards to resurrection, the spirits of little children who have died must rely upon the power of Christ for that, and one may construe that as receiving God’s grace without going too far afield. But we all have relied upon Him from the foundation of the world, and even before that.

I suggest you (if you haven’t already—I jumped in late) define very specifically what you mean by “depraved” because it can mean a whole range of things in Christian thought.

[CV75]

Verse 16 says, point blank, that "the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins." Then in the next verse, it says that "there is...no other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ." There is no way for little children to be saved except through the grace of Christ. Why? Because "by nature" they are fallen and depraved because of the fall of Adam.

This is consistent with the later passage Moroni 8:5, which says that "little children are alive in Christ." It is through God's grace that they are made "alive," despite their depraved human nature, that would would otherwise damn them. If they are held up by the Book of Mormon as an example, it is only because of the effect of God's grace upon them. By nature, they are depraved; but with God's grace, they are made humble and blameless before God.

“Repeat and Rinse”

Verse 16: If children could sin (like we do) they could not be saved except through Christ (just like we are). But they are blessed (as are we) for as they fall (which they would do if they were blameworthy like us, as in “If little child could sin…”), even so the blood of Christ atones for their sins (like it does for us sinners).

Now with regards to resurrection, the spirits of little children who have died must rely upon the power of Christ for that, and one may construe that as receiving God’s grace without going too far afield. But we all have relied upon Him from the foundation of the world, and even before that.

I suggest you (if you haven’t already—I jumped in late) define very specifically what you mean by “depraved” because it can mean a whole range of things in Christian thought.

[Cobalt-70]

Verse 16: If children could sin (like we do) they could not be saved except through Christ (just like we are). But they are blessed (as are we) for as they fall (which they would do if they were blameworthy like us, as in “If little child could sin…”), even so the blood of Christ atones for their sins (like it does for us sinners).

That argument might make a little more sense without the word "even" in verse 16, and if instead of saying "they fall," it said "they would fall." Also, you'd have to change "atoneth for their sins" to "would atone for their sins." That's not what it says. And that reading totally conflicts with the context. The previous verse just gets through saying that the law of Moses itself has no avail, and that salvation comes only through the atonement of Christ. Why would it then, in the next verse say, "...Oh!, except for one thing--little children don't need the atonement of Christ because they haven't broken the law of Moses." That would completely contradict what the author just got through saying.

Besides, back in verse 11, the chapter already says that Christ's "blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, or who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned." Little children fit within all three of these categories. And verse 16 confirms that little children fit within that first catetory--that "as in Adam, or by nature, they fall," and thus children have fallen by the transgression of Adam. The point is that despite their fall, little children are redeemed.

The points that Mosiah 3 are trying to make is that:

1. The blood of Christ redeems (a) original guilt, (b) violations of the law by those outside the law, and © sins made in ignorance. (v. 11)
   
2. Salvation does not come through the law of Moses. Salvation only comes through the atonement of Christ. (v. 15)
   
3. Even though little children cannot sin (against the law of Moses or otherwise), they "could not be saved" without the atonement of Christ. (v. 16)
   
4. Although, "as in Adam, or by nature," little children fall, "the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins." Therefore they are blessed. (v. 16)
   
5. There is no other way (including the law of Moses) "by which salvation can come unto the children of men," except through the atonement of Christ. (v. 17)
   
6. Since the fall of Adam, humanity is naturally an enemy to God. (v. 19)
   
7. Although little children are, "as in Adam, or by nature" fallen (v. 16), because God is just (v. 18) they are automatically held blameless before God (v. 21).
   
8. Because children are redeemed, they are in a state of innocence and humility. Those of us who are accountable for our sins must emulate that humility before God in order to join children in that state of redemption. (v. 18-19)
   

I suggest you (if you haven’t already—I jumped in late) define very specifically what you mean by “depraved” because it can mean a whole range of things in Christian thought.

It just means the natural fallen state of humanity. The Book of Mormon teaches that in this natural state, a person is an "enemy to God," (Mos. 3:19). It says that all people inherit this fallen state as a result of the fall (Alma 12:22; Hel. 14:16). It is a state of rebellion against God in which the devil has all power over the person, (Mos. 3:5) and the person is absolutely incapable of doing any good whatsoever (Moroni 7:24). Without the atonement, it says that each of us would forever remain in that natural state of abject wickedness, and would be endlessly lost. (Mos. 3:4). Indeed, the Book of Mormon teaches that all the goodness in the world is the result of the grace of Christ (Moroni 7:22, 24).

Based on the above passages, the Book of Mormon agrees with Protestants in accepting the idea of "total depravity." By contrast, Catholics believe that human nature was only "wounded" by the fall of Adam. We, and Protestants, teach that because of the fall, our natural state absent the grace of Christ is to be God's enemy, totally within the power of the devil, and incapable of doing any good.

[CV75]

That argument might make a little more sense without the word "even" in verse 16, and if instead of saying "they fall,"

***

I considered that, but this is only creating an offense for a grammatical idiosyncracy when the entire message is considered. Grace as it relates to the salvation of little children in their blameless state is not mentioned in either Mosiah 3 or Moroni 8. In Moroni 8:3, grace is mentioned only in relation to being “kept” in accordance to the endurance and faith of the adult accountable person.

I think I explained that little children are “fallen” in that by nature they die irrespective of their blamelessness. Grace does not apply to their blamelessness as they are spiritually “alive in Christ.” I agree that despite death, they are to be granted resurrection and eternal life. The redemption in their case is the removal of death as a consequence of Adam’s but not their own transgression.

I also think that little children, as the dust of the earth, “are alive in Christ” in the same way that their worthless grownup counterparts are (Mosiah 4: 5, 2; 2: 21, 23 & 25), but without the depravity and guilt.

Regarding depravity and rebellion, little children have to be left out of this as they cannot rebel. Some people may view the amoral death process as part of being depraved, which is why I suggested you clarify how you use the term. After all, the Book of Mormon was written for our day.

We know that parents are accountable for teaching their children the by age of eight (D&C 68:25). We know that at some point, “when they begin to grow up,” sin conceives in their hearts (Moses 6:55), and they can sin once they begin to become accountable before God (D&C 29:47). While we take the “years of accountability” to be the age of eight as a matter of parental duty and baptismal policy, there is comfort for those who hold that little children can and do become accountable and sin before the age of eight and are to be given no quarter: in the Lord’s glorious plan they will be punished accordingly! Baptism in this life would be waived but an opportunity for proxy baptism should probably be extended to avoid the agony that is rightly due them. I don’t think Mosiah 3 addresses the treatment of little children in this context.