Cannot Be Saved In Ignorance: A Zoharic Model

[volgadon]

I am not staying out of anything. That is what I think of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and Zohar!

Goodbye.

[volgadon]

To clarify, I don't mind dissenting opinions, in fact I welcome them, but if the posts have no substance, like #21, they will be reported to the mods.

[zerinus]

Goodbye.

Goodby or no goodby, I respond to posts as I see fit.

[zerinus]

To clarify, I don't mind dissenting opinions, in fact I welcome them, but if the posts have no substance, like #21, they will be reported to the mods.

I am quite used to that, don't worry.

[volgadon]

I am quite used to that, don't worry.

Yes, I know you are used to posting without any substance. That is why I have little patience for your disruptions.

[zerinus]

Yes, I know you are used to posting without any substance. That is why I have little patience for your disruptions.

Not quite. I am the kind of guy who speaks his mind. If some people don't like it, that's too bad.

[volgadon]

Not quite. I am the kind of guy who speaks his mind. If some people don't like it, that's too bad.

I don't see how it is an either or situation, but are you going to post anything of substance? If not, goodbye.

Edited September 29, 2012 by volgadon

[zerinus]

I don't see how it is an either or situation, but are you going to post anything of substance? If not, goodbye.

I already have: The Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and Zohar is crap. That is all that needs to be said on that subject.

[volgadon]

I already have: The Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and Zohar is crap. That is all that needs to be said on that subject.

Goodbye.

[zerinus]

Goodbye.

Goodby or no goodby, I respond to posts as I see fit.

[shalamabobbi]

Can I play too?

http://www.tygrrrrexpress.com/2008/06/the-zohar-vs-the-zohan/

[volgadon]

Goodby or no goodby, I respond to posts as I see fit.

Not on my threads if you keep up like this. Either post something of substance or stay out. If you keep to your same level, this is the last I have to say to you here and will be the third report I've made on you in this thread.

Edited September 29, 2012 by volgadon

[zerinus]

Not on my threads if you keep up like this. Either post something of substance or stay out.

You just don't get it, do you. I already have. How many times do you want me to repeat it?

If you keep to your same level, this is the last I have to say to you here and will be the third report I've made on you in this thread.

LOL! Keep reporting. The answer is still the same: The Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and Zohar is crap.

[zerinus]

Can I play too?

http://www.tygrrrrex...r-vs-the-zohan/

Here is an interesting quote from that link:

"The Zohar could be analyzed over the course of an entire life, and

never be completely understood

."

And here is the Lord's reply:

D&C 50

:

10 And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand;

11 Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face.

12 Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand.

13 Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question—unto what were ye ordained?

14 To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth.

15 And then received ye spirits

which ye could not understand, and received them to be of God;

and in this are ye justified?

16 Behold ye shall answer this question yourselves; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto you; he that is weak among you hereafter shall be made strong.

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth,

understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together

.

23 And that which

doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness

.

24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

Edited September 29, 2012 by zerinus

[volgadon]

Then I am in trouble...I "hope" I am...can one truly know?

l think one can receive a sound assurance that the path one follows is right. Pa Pa, don't give up! You are one of my favourites, and I love yourtestimony when you bear it.

[Storm Rider]

Ummm, I am still waiting for Zohar to turn up. The Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and Zohar is crap!

Zerinus, that type of disrespect is not found in a knowledgeable disciple of Christ. I have read many holy books and I have always found some truth and a wealth of reasons for why our brothers and sisters revere them. Your comments grate badly on the Spirit when read. There is no need for such comments here and they are beneath you..

[teddyaware]

Zerinus: The light of Christ shines in all people, regardless of creed. There is something to learn of the divine within all men, if one has humility and wisdom enough to see. Throughout my life I have learned much of eternal value from those spiritually-minded folks who are not as yet members of the LDS Church.

In this regard, much of Zohar is also inspired by the Spirit that "giveth light to every man that cometh into the world." Which is the same Spirit that "enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit." For example, who can deny the following quote from Zohar is anything but inspired from above?

From Zohar:

"Who is wise? The one who learns from all people…

“Who is mighty? The one who subdues the evil inclination…

"Who is rich? The who who rejoices in his portion….

“Who is honored? The one who honors other human beings….”

Edited September 29, 2012 by teddyaware

[volgadon]

Zerinus: The light of Christ shines in all people, regardless of creed. There is something to learn of the divine within all men, if one has humility and wisdom enough to see. Throughout my life I have learned much of eternal value from those spiritually-minded folks who are not as yet members of the LDS Church.

In this regard, much of Zohar is also inspired by the Spirit that "giveth light to every man that cometh into the world." Which is the same Spirit that "enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit." For example, who can deny the following quote from Zohar is anything but inspired from above?

From Zohar:

"Who is wise? The one who learns from all people…

“Who is mighty? The one who subdues the evil inclination…

"Who is rich? The who who rejoices in his portion….

“Who is honored? The one who honors other human beings….”

That is actually from the Sayings of the Fathers, one of my absolutely favourite works of all time.

Edited September 29, 2012 by volgadon

[zerinus]

Zerinus, that type of disrespect is not found in a knowledgeable disciple of Christ. I have read many holy books and I have always found some truth and a wealth of reasons for why our brothers and sisters revere them. Your comments grate badly on the Spirit when read. There is no need for such comments here and they are beneath you..

Thank you for your advice. I will take that on board. But I have my own reasons for posting as I do.

Edited September 29, 2012 by zerinus

[Skylla]

Zerinus is out of the thread.

Skylla

[SamIam]

Thank you.

Edited September 29, 2012 by SamIam

[volgadon]

Here is an interesting quote from that link:

"The Zohar could be analyzed over the course of an entire life, and

never be completely understood

."

And here is the Lord's reply:

D&C 50

:

10 And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand;

11 Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face.

12 Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand.

13 Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question—unto what were ye ordained?

14 To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth.

15 And then received ye spirits

which ye could not understand, and received them to be of God;

and in this are ye justified?

16 Behold ye shall answer this question yourselves; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto you; he that is weak among you hereafter shall be made strong.

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth,

understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together

.

23 And that which

doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness

.

24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

It is a shame that Zerinus had to post crap instead of more posts like this before he was banned, This is an example of a post with some substance, even though it completely misunderstands the issue.

What was it that David O. McKay said of the temple towards the end of his life? Only now am I beginning to understand.

Edited September 29, 2012 by volgadon

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

l think one can receive a sound assurance that the path one follows is right. Pa Pa, don't give up! You are one of my favourites, and I love yourtestimony when you bear it.

I believe in my Heavenly Father and have always had a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ as Saviour (note KJV spelling) even though in pain I have questioned at time. But that assurance has escaped me so often. My bio-father abandoned us when I was four, and this has messed with my mind. If my earthly father can reject me...can my Heavenly Father do the same? At eight my step father adopted me and gave me his name "Lee" which I am proud to have (he also did the same for my brother and sister) and I consider no other to be my father...but 54years later, I am still perplexed. I wonder if I will ever understand. I pray God will ever help we figure it out.

[volgadon]

I believe in my Heavenly Father and have always had a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ as Saviour (note KJV spelling) even though in pain I have questioned at time. But that assurance has escaped me so often. My bio-father abandoned us when I was four, and this has messed with my mind. If my earthly father can reject me...can my Heavenly Father do the same? At eight my step father adopted me and gave me his name "Lee" which I am proud to have (he also did the same for my brother and sister) and I consider no other to be my father...but 54years later, I am still perplexed. I wonder if I will ever understand. I pray God will ever help we figure it out.

Sadly, in this world, some biological can forsake their children. Your step-father sounds more like what the Lord is. Isaiah 49:

¹³ Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

¹⁴ But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.

¹⁵ Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

¹⁶ Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

[volgadon]

Unless otherwise indicated, all passages are from Isaiah Tishby's The Wisdom of the Zohar, vol. III, p. 1131-1132. His translation of the passage is entitled The Level of Mystic Knowledge.

Some strands of Zoharic writings, most of it in fact, strongly encourage widening esoteric circles to all those of Israel who are capable of learning the mysteries. Elsewhere in the Zohar, revealing too much of the mysteries, or revealing them to any but a small band of initiates, results in the physical death or spiritual destruction of the revelator. "The soul of the man who reveals mysteries is certainly not part of the body of the holy king. Consequently, there is no mystery in him, nor does he come from the place of the mystery. And when his soul departs it will not cleave to the body of the king, for it is not his place. Alas for that man! Alas for him! Alas for his soul!"[1] Improper revelations can even result in the death of one's children. As a later example of this Prometheus effect, the untimely deaths of both R. Isaac Luria and his young son were believed to have been decreed by heaven as punishment for his revealing the secret of the two young roes of a doe and the secret of the seventh say of Passover, respectively.[2] Unlike those "Promethean" sections, the writings we'll focus on consider knowledge of the mysteries essential for all men. Unless man is taught the mysteries here, in this life, his soul will be denied access to the gates of supernal wisdom in the heavens.

[1]Tishby, "The Wisdom of the Zohar," vol. III, p. 1087.

[2]For an extensive study, see Yehuda Liebes, "Two Young Roes of a Doe: The Secret Sermon of R. Isaac Luria

before his death," Elior, R., and Y. Liebes, eds., "Lurianic Kabbalah: Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on the History of Jewish Mysticism," Jerusalem Studies in Jewish Thought, vol. 10 (Jerusalem, 1992) (Hebrew).