Cannot Be Saved In Ignorance: A Zoharic Model

[volgadon]

"Come and see. Whoever goes to that world without knowledge, even if he has to his credit many good deeds, is expelled from all the gates of that world." Not even good, pious deeds will gain him access past the gates where more knowledge can be revealed. On the other hand, the status of those who do study the mysteries is extolled, and it will gain them access to the heavenly paradise. "Blessed are those who study the Torah in order to know the wisdom of their Master, and who know and understand the supernal mysteries, for when a man leaves the world, all the punishments in the world are removed from him. Furthermore, they open for him the thirteen gates of the secrets of pure Balsam, upon which the supernal Wisdom depends, and the Holy One, blessed be He, takes delight in him in the Garden of Eden, and he possesses both worlds: this world, and the world to come."

[SamIam]

What I want to do here is to explore certain examples of LDS teachings on gnosis, particularly in D&C 131, but I will skip around a bit. There is an interesting text from the Zohar that provides a good model to compare and contrast.

What I want to do is generate discussion. I don't want to lecture. I'll be posting the Zohar text in smaller posts, interspersed with commentary, but I'd love to hear wht others think.

Over the years my understanding of the specific nature of what knowledge is required is found within the several directions placed here and there in scripture. I also note a similar end point in the PRDS concept of Judaism.

1.) Clue number one God's goal is to bring to pass immortality and eternal life. All of the knowledge required to make this occur is required.

2.) Whatever knowledge has to be available to all people. I always point this to an image in my mind of the poorest dirt farmer in the inhospitable mountains of Peru has to have access to all of the knowledge required.

3.) As all have not faith (D & C 109:7) ...while the rest of the scripture references seeking learning out of the best books this caveat at the beginning is very telling. Plan A is have sufficient faith to not require books for gaining knowledge. Plan B is if you fall short find a book. So the knowledge required may be purely available through the Holy Ghost and ongoing spiritual experience.

4.) The Holy Ghost “witnesses of the Father and the Son” (2 Nephi 31:18)

2 Nephi 31:18

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received

the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the

fulfilling of the promise which he hath made

, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

This concept is aligned with John 17:3 might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent. Thus while the Holy Ghost can bring all things to our remembrance the primary emphasis is the knowledge of Jesus Christ and God the Father.

5.) Line upon line precept upon precept defines a process of acquiring understanding and knowledge. So whatever the direction of the growth in knowledge it will predicate upon lower levels of knowledge that lead to an ultimate level of knowledge - hence the need for the right books.

6.) Joseph Smith statement # 1: "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject" (celestial Kingdom) (TPJS, p. 324; cf. HC 6:50).

Joseph Smith Statement #2 "the best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask it from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching" (TPJS, p. 191).

Line upon line is only a requirement because we are a bit slow and we have to develop faith in earlier principles to lead us upward to acquire knowledge that is on target with the foundation we are building.

6.) Kabbalism seems to me more focused on a triad of principles Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding as interdependent aspects of a fullness of knowledge. So it is not enough to know but to comprehend and understand wise application. Knowledge does not stand alone.

7.) PRDS A fullness of understanding is achieved at the Sod level of instruction through the Shekinah. Some references tie the Shekinah to the spirit of the Lord in a pillar of fire. Moses and the burning bush, Lehi when he casts himself on his bed, the Lamanite conversion in prison, Nephi and Lehi carried away in the spirit in the Tree of Life vision, The Brother of Jared, and several other experiences seem comprised of elements that would in some way be considered Sod level understandings being conveyed with surety and perfect understanding.

This is a summary building upon the thoughts above and more ramblings in my head. The focus of all the knowledge that must be gained, whether line upon line and precept upon precept or by faith in pleading with the Lord to know God the Father and Jesus Christ and is related to the type of being they are. This includes not just knowing them but why they act after the fashion they do. It contains a correct knowledge of their attributes and character.

This knowledge is exclusively acquired upon principles of faith, and so exercising faith is part of the aim of God is scripting a pattern of acquisition that places significant emphasis on that talent. This talent of faith is the foundation of who God is as well, so while we are honing it we are becoming like him else wise one cannot exercise faith as it is predicated upon principles of godliness. This then fulfills the goal of God to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man because as eternal life is his life our becoming like him ensures the goal is met. Since God holds the universe and worlds and suns in place upon principles of faith we can not know God without it as we will need to be proficient in its exercise if we are to be like him.

All of this type of knowledge is potentially spiritually acquired and is available to anyone who will apply the promises of scripture, which may be the best books required to gain the knowledge that will lead us back to God. This seems consistent with the Holy Ghost confirming of God the Father and truths that relate to such. As well, there is no field of study, from science to psychology to agriculture to good and evil that is not present in sufficient form to be the genesis of greater knowledge from the spirit according to what the truth of these things is to the Lord by greater understanding upon the principles of faith.

As Moses 6:63 indicates all things of creation speak of Christ we can learn all that is required with faith and good books (scriptures), and diligence.

The ultimate level of knowledge to where everything points is that finally all that we learn on the way is culminated in knowing God and his Son Jesus Christ. This level of knowing embraces the fullness of the concept of knowing, through being, like him. It is not enough to know of him, but to possess the intrinsic unspeakable knowledge wisdom and understanding of what it is to comprehend all that he is.

Of course the path for this ultimate level of knowledge is set in this life and will be adhered to as we progress in the eternities, however, it appears the if we can know as the Brother of Jared knew in this life then it is possible to acquire the greater part of what is required even in this existence.

Ether 4:7, 13, 15

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

This then seems the level of knowledge that we seek according to the rules as outlined in the scriptures. to know of God and his Son. Its end result is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise of eternal increase and a life and existence like unto the Fathers.

Edited September 29, 2012 by SamIam

[Grundelwalken]

I believe in my Heavenly Father and have always had a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ as Saviour (note KJV spelling) even though in pain I have questioned at time. But that assurance has escaped me so often. My bio-father abandoned us when I was four, and this has messed with my mind. If my earthly father can reject me...can my Heavenly Father do the same? At eight my step father adopted me and gave me his name "Lee" which I am proud to have (he also did the same for my brother and sister) and I consider no other to be my father...but 54years later, I am still perplexed. I wonder if I will ever understand. I pray God will ever help we figure it out.

My experience is similar except it was my mother who abandoned our family. Yet, (and maybe it is because of the difference of gender) there has never been doubt concerning the love of the Father and Son. Even in the most rebellious state of my existence (similar in length to yours), there was always a surety that God loved me and would provide a way out if I would follow.

Pa Pa, hold on and be assured that comfort and help are there. Your cries for strength are heard and will be answered. HOLD ON -- good folk like you are the reason us weaker souls keep trying. MW

Edited September 29, 2012 by Grundelwalken

[CV75]

Unless otherwise indicated, all passages are from Isaiah Tishby's The Wisdom of the Zohar, vol. III, p. 1131-1132. His translation of the passage is entitled The Level of Mystic Knowledge.

Some strands of Zoharic writings, most of it in fact, strongly encourage widening esoteric circles to all those of Israel who are capable of learning the mysteries. Elsewhere in the Zohar, revealing too much of the mysteries, or revealing them to any but a small band of initiates, results in the physical death or spiritual destruction of the revelator. "The soul of the man who reveals mysteries is certainly not part of the body of the holy king. Consequently, there is no mystery in him, nor does he come from the place of the mystery. And when his soul departs it will not cleave to the body of the king, for it is not his place. Alas for that man! Alas for him! Alas for his soul!"[1] Improper revelations can even result in the death of one's children. As a later example of this Prometheus effect, the untimely deaths of both R. Isaac Luria and his young son were believed to have been decreed by heaven as punishment for his revealing the secret of the two young roes of a doe and the secret of the seventh say of Passover, respectively.[2] Unlike those "Promethean" sections, the writings we'll focus on consider knowledge of the mysteries essential for all men. Unless man is taught the mysteries here, in this life, his soul will be denied access to the gates of supernal wisdom in the heavens.

[1]Tishby, "The Wisdom of the Zohar," vol. III, p. 1087.

[2]For an extensive study, see Yehuda Liebes, "Two Young Roes of a Doe: The Secret Sermon of R. Isaac Luria

before his death," Elior, R., and Y. Liebes, eds., "Lurianic Kabbalah: Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on the History of Jewish Mysticism," Jerusalem Studies in Jewish Thought, vol. 10 (Jerusalem, 1992) (Hebrew).

Sorry I missed some of this thread – crazy weekend but then again I appears I might have saved myself some trouble!

When you speak of a model of revealed spiritual knowledge to deepen our appreciation and understanding of our rituals and their purpose, are you looking at the method or obtaining it, the conditions under which it works, a description of what it is, or something else? This is your thread so I’d like to stay on task and not detract.

We touched on the brother of Jared a little, and of course we have many others: Abraham, Moses and Enoch from the Pearl of Great Price; Lehi, Nephi, Enos and others from the Book of Mormon. The Lord’s Intercessory Prayer provides great guidance for a model of revealed spiritual knowledge.

This passage speaks of those of Israel who are capable of understanding the mysteries—to me, these are those who hold the keys to know, and those who follow and sustain them and are given knowledge they can steward properly (including not blabbing about it, casting pearls to the swine, etc.).

Earlier I mentioned the knowledge involved with building the Tower of Babel, how it was gotten, and how it was treated, etc. in comparison to the process the brother of Jared went through. The brother of Jared approached the Lord for a technological solution and because of his attitude not only was it granted but he was given spiritual light and knowledge. The builders of the tower were able to find great technological solutions but because of their pride could not gain any spiritual light by it—they misused their stewardship and dominion and so the Lord confounded them (I suppose before they could do further damage to humanity).

I suppose it is possible that there is a point where profane knowledge approaches spiritual knowledge or truth, at which point they way we treat it determines whether we are saved or damned.

[CV75]

"Come and see. Whoever goes to that world without knowledge, even if he has to his credit many good deeds, is expelled from all the gates of that world." Not even good, pious deeds will gain him access past the gates where more knowledge can be revealed. On the other hand, the status of those who do study the mysteries is extolled, and it will gain them access to the heavenly paradise. "Blessed are those who study the Torah in order to know the wisdom of their Master, and who know and understand the supernal mysteries, for when a man leaves the world, all the punishments in the world are removed from him. Furthermore, they open for him the thirteen gates of the secrets of pure Balsam, upon which the supernal Wisdom depends, and the Holy One, blessed be He, takes delight in him in the Garden of Eden, and he possesses both worlds: this world, and the world to come."

I take from this that knowledge is subjective, real experience and that deeds are merely expressions of that (and when the former is lacking, no more than the actions of automatons—the quote from Joseph Smith in an earlier post uses the term “beast”). Going about our business like automations is like honoring God with our lips but having our hearts far from Him, or like those on the left hand (Matthew 25: 31-46) may have done good things but to the greatest and not the least. So knowing why we do certain good deeds (the power for doing them, the purpose, the honor and glory of them, etc.) is essential. And of course this boils down to knowing what we are becoming, being known as we are known, and God only knowing and doing that which is good.

Which brings up the knowledge of evil—God certainly has this, but not on a subjective level.

[CV75]

So, are we not ultimately saved from ignorance until we have achieved a fullness of faith and knowledge and there is no ignorance in us?

Here's less of a wise-guy answer (it was Friday, that's my excuse...). I think Jospeh Smith's saying about not being saved in ignorance really boils down to the impossibility of our being saved until the truth has been preached to us. After that, we can shed our ignorance by accepting it, or remain in willful ignorance by rejecting it. This is why the work for the dead is so essential--they cannot be saved in ignorance and so the gospel is preached to them and the ordinances provided by proxy in the temple. In this way, they act upon the word of God with faith, which through the ordinances become a subjective experience in the flesh, which is knowledge. This gets to your point that knowledge is material as well as spiritual--it can only be had in a fulness when the spirit and body are connected.

So I believe we are saved from ignorance only when we act correctly upon the word that has been preached to us. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the relationship between the Word, Logos, and Knowledge. To me, the Word is the opportunity for knowledge (not knowledge itself, except as He experiences it Himself), for we can either accept or reject it. The Lord's atonement affords us the opportunity to experience redemption and become like Him.

[MormonMason]

Not quite. I am the kind of guy who speaks his mind. If some people don't like it, that's too bad.

Questions of the day: Have you even read the Zohar? If so, have you even attempted to understand at least some of it?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My experience is similar except it was my mother who abandoned our family. Yet, (and maybe it is because of the difference of gender) there has never been doubt concerning the love of the Father and Son. Even in the most rebellious state of my existence (similar in length to yours), there was always a surety that God loved me and would provide a way out if I would follow.

Pa Pa, hold on and be assured that comfort and help are there. Your cries for strength are heard and will be answered. HOLD ON -- good folk like you are the reason us weaker souls keep trying. MW

Thank You...

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Sadly, in this world, some biological can forsake their children. Your step-father sounds more like what the Lord is. Isaiah 49:

¹³ Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

¹⁴ But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.

¹⁵ Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

¹⁶ Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Great reminder...good words.

[CV75]

I just now happened to be reading Mosiah 5-6. Some of this also hearkens back to a thread a while back that demonstrates how God as teacher imparts knowledge to prophet as pupil, and in ceremony, high priests to temple attendees, but adresses the OP as a model for teh relationship between knowledge and salvation:

1 And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them. God desires us to acknowledge, confess and otherwise demonstrate that we believe His words.

2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. Belief and knowledge are different forms of the same experience and incorporation of truth as part of who we are and what we do.

3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things. An example of belief as a form or foreknowledge which is a form of knowledge.

4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy.

Belief >>> faith >>> knowledge is a progression as well as different forms of the same thing.

5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God. Doing something with our knowledge: bringing it from an intellectual into a spiritual (what we covenant) and into a physical application (what we do)—but then again it begins with hearing and thinking, both requiring a body.

6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant. The Lord confirms that what we do with what we have is good.

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. The name by which we are saved is given, not that it is new, but that it has new meaning and application by us when we are born again spiritually, or when we know ourselves to be “changed” for the better.

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. Once the name is given in this way, we must receive it and remember it, and act accordingly.

9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. (See Matthew 25:31-40).

10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God. (See Matthew 25:41-46).

11 And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts. We need to remember what we know (one function of the sacrament).

13 For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart? Doing good works in Christ’s name is essential to remembering what we know.

15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen. Doing good works in Christ’s name is essential to remembering what we know and ultimately to be sealed His and to have eternal life, indicative that there is continually more to learn, remember and do until that perfect day.

Mosiah 6:3 emphasizes the role of the Lord’s anointed “to teach the people, that thereby they might hear and know the commandments of God, and to stir them up in remembrance of the oath which they had made…”

[wenglund]

Unless otherwise indicated, all passages are from Isaiah Tishby's The Wisdom of the Zohar, vol. III, p. 1131-1132. His translation of the passage is entitled The Level of Mystic Knowledge.

Some strands of Zoharic writings, most of it in fact, strongly encourage widening esoteric circles to all those of Israel who are capable of learning the mysteries. Elsewhere in the Zohar, revealing too much of the mysteries, or revealing them to any but a small band of initiates, results in the physical death or spiritual destruction of the revelator. "The soul of the man who reveals mysteries is certainly not part of the body of the holy king. Consequently, there is no mystery in him, nor does he come from the place of the mystery. And when his soul departs it will not cleave to the body of the king, for it is not his place. Alas for that man! Alas for him! Alas for his soul!"[1] Improper revelations can even result in the death of one's children. As a later example of this Prometheus effect, the untimely deaths of both R. Isaac Luria and his young son were believed to have been decreed by heaven as punishment for his revealing the secret of the two young roes of a doe and the secret of the seventh say of Passover, respectively.[2] Unlike those "Promethean" sections, the writings we'll focus on consider knowledge of the mysteries essential for all men. Unless man is taught the mysteries here, in this life, his soul will be denied access to the gates of supernal wisdom in the heavens.

[1]Tishby, "The Wisdom of the Zohar," vol. III, p. 1087.

[2]For an extensive study, see Yehuda Liebes, "Two Young Roes of a Doe: The Secret Sermon of R. Isaac Luria

before his death," Elior, R., and Y. Liebes, eds., "Lurianic Kabbalah: Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on the History of Jewish Mysticism," Jerusalem Studies in Jewish Thought, vol. 10 (Jerusalem, 1992) (Hebrew).

This is an interesting juxtaposition. Here we have a discussion on salvation from ignorance in which there is talk of damnation for disclosing knowledge. In other words, the same knowledge by which one may be saved from ignorance, may also be the cause of damnation--which damnation, I submit, applies not just to those who improperly reveal the mysteries, but also to those who hear the mysteries and whose minds aren't prepared to receive them (which is why the Savior often spoke in parables so that some people would not hear the mysteries and be held responsible for the mysteries and be damned accordingly--Mt. 13).

In a paradoxical sense, then, knowledge can be damning, and one may be saved from that damnation through ignorance.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 1, 2012 by wenglund

[CV75]

In a paradoxical sense, then, knowledge can be damning, and one may be saved from that damnation through ignorance.

i'd say that knowledge is damning when we willfully misuse it. The means of salvation from this kind of damnation is repentance. One is not saved from the willful misuse of knowledge through ignorance, only prevented from committing it by denying them premature access to knowledge. While this can be construed as a form of damnation, salvation from this kind of damnation comes by way of opportunity to obtain knowledge at the right time and place. Ignorance is then damning when we willfully refuse knowledge. So I think the key to salvation and damnation with regards to knowledge and ignorance is a function of our agency in response to knowledge and our opportunities.

I think the Lord’s use of parables was to allow people to exercise their agency at their own pace, depending on their willingness (at His expense) or willfulness (at their own expense).

[USU78]

The poster whose posts I had commented on is out of the thread . . . hence I delete all reference thereto.

I am reminded of the Sephiroth, specifically that of Malkuth, the Kingdom, as in the Kingdom of G-d, which is located graphically at the Master's feet . . . the place we gather to learn from Him. I'm also reminded of the Keter, the crown, as in the Crown of Victory He obtained upon His victory over Death and Hell, graphically located at the crown of His head, the site of His great intellect.

We are promised crowns if we overcome the world . . .

Edited October 1, 2012 by USU78