Cannot Be Saved In Ignorance: A Zoharic Model

[volgadon]

Gnosticism is a much abused term, especially in comparative religious studies. Gnosis itself, however, is not a bad term for revealed, spiritual knowledge, if one keeps it separate from the several groups of Late Antiquity usually labelled Gnostic. What I want to do here is to explore certain examples of LDS teachings on gnosis, particularly in D&C 131, but I will skip around a bit. There is an interesting text from the Zohar that provides a good model to compare and contrast. I certainly don't consider it as having any relation to the teachings of Joseph Smith, one can't even extract most aspects of temple ritual from it, but considering similar concepts can help deepen our appreciation and understanding of our own rituals and their purpose. If nothingmore, then at least by highlighting contrasts.

In vol. 4 of Garrett and Robinson's ''A Commentary on The Doctrine and Covenants," there some pertinent remarks.

]6. It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance. This verse is true on more than one level of understanding. In the first place, the Prophet Joseph taught, "A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God." Second, it is impossible for an individual to be exalted in the celestial kingdom after enduring to the end without a knowledge of the covenants made in the holy temple, to which he or she must be true and faithful. Third, and most in keeping with the sense of verse 5, it is impossible for an individual to receive the more sure word of prophecy and the unconditional guarantee of exaltation while still in the flesh without having come to know that he or she is sealed up unto eternal life (v. 5).

What I want to do is generate discussion. I don't want to lecture. I'll be posting the Zohar text in smaller posts, interspersed with commentary, but I'd love to hear wht others think.

[cesc101]

I personally think D&C 131, places on hinges of Temple Ceremonies the salvation of individuals, as well as points out the responsible of the individual to actively seek ways of "working out [their] salvation", namely; Knowledge ---(cf, Prov 11:9 "...through knowledge shall the just be delivered.")

[DavidB]

I look at the Book of Mormon prophets who each seemed to say that they knew of their salvation. I take the Doctrine and Covenants as meaning you can not be saved without knowing you are saved.

[cesc101]

I take the Doctrine and Covenants as meaning you can not be saved without knowing you are saved.

True!

But, JS quote from Volgadon post, might be indicating something like; "Knowledge is Power" - considering D&C 130:18 also.

[CV75]

6. It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance. This verse is true on more than one level of understanding. In the first place, the Prophet Joseph taught, "A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God." Second, it is impossible for an individual to be exalted in the celestial kingdom after enduring to the end without a knowledge of the covenants made in the holy temple, to which he or she must be true and faithful. Third, and most in keeping with the sense of verse 5, it is impossible for an individual to receive the more sure word of prophecy and the unconditional guarantee of exaltation while still in the flesh without having come to know that he or she is sealed up unto eternal life (v. 5).

What I want to do is generate discussion. I don't want to lecture. I'll be posting the Zohar text in smaller posts, interspersed with commentary, but I'd love to hear what others think.

I think these three levels of understanding are based on John 17:3, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

I also think these three levels of understanding show a progression from simple knowledge to applied knowledge (as a result of faith) to endowed knowledge (the more sure word of prophesy) that is impossible to obtain by faith and enduring in Christ alone, but comes by sheer grace after all we can do.

[CV75]

It is interesting to me that the brother of Jared had such faith that he saw the finger of the Lord and concluded that "the Lord had flesh and blood", but that the Lord corrected him and said, "thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood." From Ether 3:

13 …the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. [Knowledge brings redemption—we are not saved in ignorance]

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. [Redemption, or eternal life, is initiated with belief and realized with knowledge]

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. [belief led to knowledge]

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting. [The reaction tof "fear" or "astonishment" to the attainment of new knowledge is interesting to me, as opposed to "doubting" with is another reaction]

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

Once he believed and knew, the brother of Jared could say with confidence (hope) that he will believe and come to know more (Verse 12). Verse 20 demonstrates that even "perfect knowledge" may not be complete knowledge, but perfect in that point, yet enough through grace to be brought into the presence of the Lord where complete knowledge can eventually be gotten.

So knowledge seems to continue to grow even after we are redeemed. We are not saved in ignorance, but once we are saved we do not necessarily know everything.

Edited September 28, 2012 by CV75

[volgadon]

It is nice to wake up in the morning to find some very pertinent thoughts and comments.

I agree that knowledge is power, and the Brother of Jared passages fit very well with what I will be posting.

[volgadon]

I look at the Book of Mormon prophets who each seemed to say that they knew of their salvation. I take the Doctrine and Covenants as meaning you can not be saved without knowing you are saved.

That could be part of it, but such knowledge, to me at least, seems to be on a low rung compared to others forms of knowledge. I mean, you know you are saved, now what.

[volgadon]

One of my mission companions had decided to learn speed reading. As whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, will rise with us in the resurrection, speed reading, he explained, would allow him to flip through dozens of books in the space it took to read one. Of course he wouldn't remember most of what he read, but as these principles will rise with him, he'd have a huge head start on everything else. This was one of the few times where he didn't ignore me most of the day, but I still rolled my eyes. A creative interpretation, certainly, but I'm very glad none here have mentioned something like that.

[volgadon]

I'm off to work, but the Zohar passage will be from Midrash Shir Ha-Shirim 70d.

[CV75]

Before I forget; hope it's not early to bring up--How the brother of Jared’s knowledge developed (from Ether 3):

v. 4: “I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power [does he really know? I do not think so—he does not know what “all power” is, but he has sufficient faith to say this as if he knew], and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger [he does not know the Lord has a finger, and may be speaking figuratively]…”

v. 5: “We know that thou art able to show forth great power [“great” vs. “all” – he is beginning to look at what he actually knows more accurately], which looks small unto the understanding of men.”

v. 6: “And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.” Here, knowledge is obtained by the veil being removed, something only God has the power to do. This is a different process than gaining knowledge by acting upon our faith, which is doing something that we can do in order to gain knowledge as an observable result of our faith and action. This may be one reason the Tower was such an abomination—the builders were doing something of their own power to pierce the veil. God stopped them not because there was a threat that they could actually remove the veil themselves, but such advanced pride, knowledge and disregard of the principles of spiritual knowledge would have brought tools into existence that would have destroyed mankind well before the meridian of time.

v. 8: “I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.” Related to the verse 6 comment above, perhaps the brother of Jared was hyper-sensitive to the pursuit of forbidden knowledge and advanced knowledge obtained without faith. This kind of fear is not antithetical to faith, just an appreciation “that man is nothing.”

v. 9: “Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood…” Faith gives us foreknowledge as well leading us directly to current and witnessed knowledge.

v. 12: “Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.” We can compare this with verse 4, and though he knows more now than he did then, his expression of knowledge is in actuality still only an expression of faith.

v. 13: “Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.” Faith seems to be acknowledged as an expression of spiritual knowledge, where “I believe” means “I know” and so the Lord accepts the brother of Jared’s faith in the form of foreknowledge from verse 9, his completed faith in the form of having seen His finger from verse 6, and his current exercise of faith from verse 12.

[DavidB]

That could be part of it, but such knowledge, to me at least, seems to be on a low rung compared to others forms of knowledge. I mean, you know you are saved, now what.

For me the knowledge of being saved comes after one has recieved said blessing based upon the law upon which it was predicated. So once someone has the knowledge their "now what" would be maintain the course and steady as she goes.

Though it is possible one might not receive such knowledge until they have endured to the end.

Thanks for posting the commentary, it is always nice to read things that show my personal thoughts are in agreement with Joseph Smith.

[Calm]

Two ideas strike me when speaking of knowledge and salvation. The first is in Corinthians where it speaks of our knowledge in the future as being dramatically fuller than it is now, that our knowledge will apparently be on par with God's (which if he shares all with us makes sense).

¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The other is when Joseph Smith speaks of knowing God:

“There are but a very few beings in the world who understand rightly the character of God. The great majority of mankind do not comprehend anything, either that which is past, or that which is to come, as it respects their relationship to God. They do not know, neither do they understand the nature of that relationship; and consequently they know but little above the brute beast, or more than to eat, drink and sleep. This is all man knows about God or His existence, unless it is given by the inspiration of the Almighty.

“If a man learns nothing more than to eat, drink and sleep, and does not comprehend any of the designs of God, the beast comprehends the same things. It eats, drinks, sleeps, and knows nothing more about God; yet it knows as much as we, unless we are able to comprehend by the inspiration of Almighty God. If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves. I want to go back to the beginning, and so lift your minds into more lofty spheres and a more exalted understanding than what the human mind generally aspires to.

“… The scriptures inform us that ‘This is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’ [John 17:3.]

“If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being He is,—if he will search diligently his own heart—if the declaration of Jesus and the apostles be true, he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.....

“… Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach Him, and how to ask so as to receive an answer. When we understand the character of God, and know how to come to Him, He begins to unfold the heavens to us, and to tell us all about it. When we are ready to come to Him, He is ready to come to us.”9

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=dc48b00367c45110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

[wenglund]

In light of several posts above, the question may be raised as to how much knowledge and/or what type of knowledge would it take to ultimately be saved from ignorance?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CV75]

The other is when Joseph Smith speaks of knowing God:

From you Jospeh Smith quotes:

1. “… The scriptures inform us that ‘This is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’ [John 17:3.]

I really appreciate John 17:3 as that is where I believe that this relationship between eternal life and knowledge is the basis for the process of getting and applying correct knowledge correctly.

2. “… Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach Him, and how to ask so as to receive an answer. When we understand the character of God, and know how to come to Him, He begins to unfold the heavens to us, and to tell us all about it. When we are ready to come to Him, He is ready to come to us.”9

I think this is what the brother of Jared’s experience demonstrates as well as Joseph’s own experience in the Sacred Grove. Of course we have Moses’, Abraham’s, Enoch’s, Enos’ and others’ experiences on the scriptural record as well.

[CV75]

In light of several posts above, the question may be raised as to how much knowledge and/or what type of knowledge would it take to ultimately be saved from ignorance?

I would say any particle of knowledge, catalyzed by the corresponding particle of faith, would remove a corresponding particle of ignorance. This is what makes the knowledge spiritual. As we are saved by degrees, our faith and knowledge grow by degrees. But when we speak of saved in terms of being exalted, it is purely spiritual, and with that added factor of grace after all the faith that we can muster, and after doing all that is required to obtain the corresponding foreknowledge, to observe the truths (fruits of faith) that have been witnessed, and exercise current knowledge as a fulcrum for future faith. This last idea comes from repeating Romans 10;17 ("faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God") as a cycle of progress.

[wenglund]

I would say any particle of knowledge, catalyzed by the corresponding particle of faith, would remove a corresponding particle of ignorance. This is what makes the knowledge spiritual.

Agreed. It is also what makes knowledge somewhat material.

As we are saved by degrees, our faith and knowledge grow by degrees.

So, are we not ultimately saved from ignorance until we have achieved a fullness of faith and knowledge and there is no ignorance in us?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CV75]

Agreed. It is also what makes knowledge somewhat material.

Oh my, yes--all things are material; that goes withou saying (although maybe getting into all that later in the thread!).

So, are we not ultimately saved from ignorance until we have achieved a fullness of faith and knowledge and there is no ignorance in us?

I think that once we get to the point where the brother of Jared was, perfect knowledge is not complete knowledge, yet he was saved (as in worthy to enter the Lord's presence). Of course he was still spiritually ignorant in some things; I'm sure he would be the first to admit it. But this means imperfect ignorance (mingled with his fear and not his doubts)-or incomplete yet at teh same time perfect knowledge of this aspect of he Lord--would not prevent him from being saved either.

It might be time to create a table for the interaction of salvation, faith, knowledge, ignorance, doubt, fear, confidence and grace in their perfect and imperfect, complete and incomplete, all, some and nothing permutations. Easy!

[CV75]

...but then such a chart would play out differently for each individual depending on what the Lord expected of him.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I look at the Book of Mormon prophets who each seemed to say that they knew of their salvation. I take the Doctrine and Covenants as meaning you can not be saved without knowing you are saved.

Then I am in trouble...I "hope" I am...can one truly know?

[zerinus]

Ummm, I am still waiting for Zohar to turn up. The Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and Zohar is crap!

[cesc101]

In light of several posts above, the question may be raised as to how much knowledge and/or what type of knowledge would it take to ultimately be saved from ignorance?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

the type that makes God a God!

[volgadon]

Ummm, I am still waiting for Zohar to turn up. The Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and Zohar is crap!

You will stay out if you are going to bring your usual level of behavior to the table.

[volgadon]

In light of several posts above, the question may be raised as to how much knowledge and/or what type of knowledge would it take to ultimately be saved from ignorance?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That is part of the reason for the thread. I'm not pretending to know the full answer on this.

[zerinus]

You will stay out if you are going to bring your usual level of behavior to the table.

I am not staying out of anything. That is what I think of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and Zohar!