Don Bradley'S Return To The Church

[cinepro]

So, all were involved in a fraud that they never denied? And visionary eyes? What does that mean? All the witnesses testified to what they saw and felt. No one denied it.

Without referring to the Book of Mormon witnesses specifically, it should be noted that such a scenario is possible.

For example, depending on how you view it, this could be an example of people believing in something that isn't true but never denying it, even until they die:

http://www.reliefmine.com/

[why me]

Without referring to the Book of Mormon witnesses specifically, it should be noted that such a scenario is possible.

For example, depending on how you view it, this could be an example of people believing in something that isn't true but never denying it, even until they die:

http://www.reliefmine.com/

Many things can be compared. Except for the fact that it does seem that the eight witnesses touched something. And that the other 3 had a visionary experience. And this is the problem. The question: what did they experience needs to be asked. And how did Joseph accomplish it is the second question if the experience was not what it claimed to be.

This is a tough nut to crack. Our friend Tacenda seems to be in the grips of the EV who are constantly exclaiming to her that the lds church is not christ centered. This is false. Or that the mormon jesus and the mormon god are different from the true god. Not true.

[Avatar4321]

As I look around my house I have pictures of the Savior all around. And scriptures lay nearby. But I really wonder if all these years it's all for looks. I've never really known my Savior. I think I'm a complete fake. To the outsider it looks as if I'm close to the Lord. But in actuality I choose the remote or mouse over the scriptures. In the past I'd choose a movie over the temple for date night. What a pathetic loser. And when I see the real Christlike behavior of those that don't appear to be at first, I notice their actions and it speaks volumes compared to my pictures on the wall, etc.

How would any of us know a master we don't serve? That's what the scriptures ask (roughly, i did paraphrase). I've found that the best way to know Christ is to experiment on His word. You may have done something like that, I don't know. But I do know experimenting on the Word over time is what eventually tells us what is true.

[Avatar4321]

True. But we do not have any collaboration of those journals. What we do have is a written record by men decades after the event. We have nothing written during the time of the event. We have no witnesses. It all takes faith. But we do have 11 witnesses to the book of mormon that testify to its truthfulness. And if they are correct then the book of mormon becomes a second testament of christ. Thus, the proof.

Actually, there are 12 witnesses of the Book of Mormon.

[Bart Burk]

How would any of us know a master we don't serve? That's what the scriptures ask (roughly, i did paraphrase). I've found that the best way to know Christ is to experiment on His word. You may have done something like that, I don't know. But I do know experimenting on the Word over time is what eventually tells us what is true.

I know people that say if you experiment with praying the Rosary and going to mass everyday that you will find out the Catholic Church is true ... I'm afraid sometimes we just wind up believing what we believe in.

[Garden Girl]

I'm glad you chimed in DB. I need to say this to someone that might have struggled with what I'm going to say. The crux of my problem is this. I've read that Satan (son of the morning) is the God of this world and that is why we so desparately need our Savior since Adam/Eve sinned when they went against their Father and partook of the fruit.

Also we have even admitted to believing in a different Christ. Remember Pres. Hinckley's statement? Back to the crux of my problem. Is Satan able to stand in place of the HG? And blind us to the truth? These have been my thoughts. I would love to stay LDS, but worry that our believing in a different Jesus is a problem.

Tacenda...

42 years as a LDS?? Where have you been? What have you been studying? Your lack of understanding is stunning... this, and other things you've said in your posts makes me wonder how you could be asking such questions and/or expressing such opinions at this point in time... that you could make such a statement as highlighted above after 42 years is truly baffling.

I also agree with the person who said you spend too much time listening to your EV friends...

GG

[Bart Burk]

Tacenda...

42 years as a LDS?? Where have you been? What have you been studying? Your lack of understanding is stunning... this, and other things you've said in your posts makes me wonder how you could be asking such questions and/or expressing such opinions at this point in time... that you could make such a statement as highlighted above after 42 years is truly baffling.

I also agree with the person who said you spend too much time listening to your EV friends...

GG

I tried to get a link to a page discussing President Hinckley's statement on FAIR, but the link doesn't work. The upshot is that Hinckley was only saying that Mormons didn't believe in a Christ defined by the creeds, but only a Christ defined by the scriptures. So don't read too much into his statement. He didn't say that Mormons believed in a "different Christ." That's an evangelical spin on what he said.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Bart Burk

[Arbiter]

I've sought spiritual confirmation for a belief in our church that's now been lost, but keep getting the message from EV's or others, that our church contradicts the bible. Did you ever believe this and if so how does one get the answer that our church lines up with the bible?

The truth is that the Bible contradicts the Bible. Some accounts of Judas' death say he jumped off a cliff, and one says he hung himself for instance. God says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" but he told Isaac to kill his son for another.

I have a long, shall I say chequered, history with anti-Mormon evangelicals. (Some have better comprehension of the Savior's teachings than their fellow anti-Mormon evangelicals. So I usually make that distinction). I know what their most typical criticisms of the church are. I know about the sanctimony -- the judgments. They always remind me of some church members, who don't have much tolerance for those who question some of the eminently questionable things about the church. If I were you I'd rely heavily on the actual words of Jesus. We don't use red letter editions of the Bible in the church, but they are very helpful in doing just that. I have an old King James red letter edition that I love, and am never far away from. Not just in case I run into someone determined to make me wrong about matters of scripture, but to help me remember what the guy we ALL -- evangelicals and latter day saints -- claim to follow, actually taught. I think I paid ten bucks for it at Wal-Mart about a million years ago. (Okay, maybe 10-11 years ago.) In your encounters with zealots of all persuasions, think you'll find it the best $10 you ever spent. (Could be a little more than that now. I'm not smart enough to adjust for inflation.)

[Arbiter]

I mean 'Abraham.' Any way for me to go back and edit such a dumb mistake?

[Arbiter]

Tacenda...42 years as a LDS?? Where have you been? What have you been studying? Your lack of understanding is stunning... this, and other things you've said in your posts makes me wonder how you could be asking such questions and/or expressing such opinions at this point in time... that you could make such a statement as highlighted above after 42 years is truly baffling.

I also agree with the person who said you spend too much time listening to your EV friends...

GG

Outrageously dismissive. Ugh.

[Tacenda]

The truth is that the Bible contradicts the Bible. Some accounts of Judas' death say he jumped off a cliff, and one says he hung himself for instance. God says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" but he told Isaac to kill his son for another.

I have a long, shall I say chequered, history with anti-Mormon evangelicals. (Some have better comprehension of the Savior's teachings than their fellow anti-Mormon evangelicals. So I usually make that distinction). I know what their most typical criticisms of the church are. I know about the sanctimony -- the judgments. They always remind me of some church members, who don't have much tolerance for those who question some of the eminently questionable things about the church. If I were you I'd rely heavily on the actual words of Jesus. We don't use red letter editions of the Bible in the church, but they are very helpful in doing just that. I have an old King James red letter edition that I love, and am never far away from. Not just in case I run into someone determined to make me wrong about matters of scripture, but to help me remember what the guy we ALL -- evangelicals and latter day saints -- claim to follow, actually taught. I think I paid ten bucks for it at Wal-Mart about a million years ago. (Okay, maybe 10-11 years ago.) In your encounters with zealots of all persuasions, think you'll find it the best $10 you ever spent. (Could be a little more than that now. I'm not smart enough to adjust for inflation.)

Thanks for the advice that I needed! I do have a very old "red letter" bible in a drawer in my night stand that use to be my mom's! I do need to pull that out and read it instead of the triple combination I use for family scripture study. I took it to my room in hopes I'd get some personal scripture study in at night, but I forgot about it. Sad, huh. Do you know if they have a red letter bible as an app for a phone. Don't worry about answering that, I'll do some checking.

[Tacenda]

Outrageously dismissive. Ugh.

I'm totally use to it. Some bless their souls, won't know what some go through until they do it themselves. But I for one don't want that for anyone.

[Calm]

I tried to get a link to a page discussing President Hinckley's statement on FAIR, but the link doesn't work. The upshot is that Hinckley was only saying that Mormons didn't believe in a Christ defined by the creeds, but only a Christ defined by the scriptures. So don't read too much into his statement. He didn't say that Mormons believed in a "different Christ." That's an evangelical spin on what he said.

Exactly

[Calm]

I mean 'Abraham.' Any way for me to go back and edit such a dumb mistake?

When you get to 25 posts. Edited October 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Garden Girl]

Outrageously dismissive. Ugh.

Hello Arbiter...

Sorry if I sound "dismissive" of Tacenda... and sorry Tacenda if you think I am being dismissive... I just become exasperated with her because, based on her own words, she seems to seek answers from sources other than those that will actually give her the truth she seeks.

I've been reading her 1300+ posts since she came on board in her struggle to find "truth" and the answers to her many questions, and instead of going to accurate, reliable sources available within the Church, let alone doing the studying, pondering, and praying about the scriptures, she runs to and fro quoting from here and there including her EV friends and seems to ignore the answers she receives here.

Don Bradley's experience is one that we can all benefit from in times when we have questions, and I'm sure we all do... but in Tacenda's case I find it really baffling that someone who claims to have been active etc for 42 years can actually be concerned about the Church teaching about a different Jesus...

So... I apologize... it is not my intent to be dismissive or hurtful... but I do state firmly that those seeking answers should just stop and stand still and wait upon the Lord through prayer and even fasting if possible... then start methodically going through each issue. The more studying and praying about an issue, the more questions regarding other issues will be answered also... this is a lot different than tossing out a question, getting a discussion going, then running on to ask something else...

GG

[Calm]

I'm totally use to it. Some bless their souls, won't know what some go through until they do it themselves. But I for one don't want that for anyone.

But there are several on the board who have experienced much the same and come through it.

It is the common use of anti-mormon sound bites in certain posters language (such as "a different Jesus") that indicates where one's interest is currently lying and where the pirmary source (at least primary in the sense of what is being paid the most attention to) for information is coming from.

This comment by GG is not out of the blue, she has been talking to Tacenda about this same thing with corrections about it several times in the past already (as GG pointed out, many of us have discussed extensively Tacenda's concerns since the middle of June this year...so much so that she's clocked up over 1300 posts in the back and forth. On GG's side she is probably feeling all those times of trying to engage and help Tacenda with her questions have been dismissed by Tacenda's return to the improper cliched "different Jesus" soundbite.

Edited October 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I'm right here listening (reading). Okay, so I'm only supposed to get the answers from the church published articles? Doesn't that seem one sided? What if someone is not so sure the answers are accurate? I have tried. I've lived on the side of pray and read your scriptures to know if it's true. But that's one sided. Shouldn't I get information from all sides and put them together for a more well rounded picture? The EV's you speak about are not in person, just sites that have sermons and what not. In fact I don't know a single EV right now. I watch shows, period. Shows that have led people out of the church, granted, not a great faith promoter but there have been very faithful LDS that have left. One is a bishop who comes off as very sincere, to me anyway. This is what I'm up against. I love the LDS people, they seem to be so picture perfect compared to some EV's who look a little scruffy or don't have the best buildings etc. But I'm trying to see the heart not the looks. I'm trying to see what it is to worship the Saviour. I'm wondering why we don't always speak of him in our worship services like they do. I know you believe He's talked about in a round about way and that what ever we talk about are things that he wants us to do. Like attending the temple etc. But it seems as if the EV's could go months on just a few scriptures in the bible. They delve so internally into it. Maybe we as LDS need to get back to the basics so one can get the relationship with Him and then go onto the other parts, even though some, like Elder Bruce R. McConkie, believe that to be a wrong concept, atleast the personal relationship with the Saviour part.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Tacenda

[sheilauk]

As I look around my house I have pictures of the Savior all around. And scriptures lay nearby. But I really wonder if all these years it's all for looks. I've never really known my Savior. I think I'm a complete fake. To the outsider it looks as if I'm close to the Lord. But in actuality I choose the remote or mouse over the scriptures. In the past I'd choose a movie over the temple for date night. What a pathetic loser. And when I see the real Christlike behavior of those that don't appear to be at first, I notice their actions and it speaks volumes compared to my pictures on the wall, etc.

Putting yourself down will not help you in maintaining your faith or getting to know the Saviour. As I've mentioned, I've been through a lack of faith and I've spent years away from church and been to several protestant denominations. I have some idea of what you are feeling. And I don't think you can find what you are searching for in the places you are looking.

Do you have faith in Jesus Christ? Do you believe in Him as your Saviour? Do you want to know Him? Once you do, your life is likely to change forever. Are you prepared for that change? No church or scripture can help you believe in Christ and no church - LDS, EV or any other will bring you knowledge of Christ by your simply being a member and knowing their doctrines, principles or scriptures. The only way to know Christ, in my experience, is by the only way we get to know anyone - talking with Him - more commonly known as prayer. But not the sort of prayers said in Church - talk to Him as you would anyone you were getting to know. Tell Him what you feel, what you think, what you want. Ask Him questions, directly - not through reading anything - scripture, other books, message boards, or listening to the TV etc. As you drive to work, as you mow the lawn, cook your dinner, take a walk - talk to Him and remember to listen to His reply - thoughts that come into your head, things you see about you, a comment someone else makes, a section of scripture that you notice when you are doing your studying and especially be aware of the presence of the Holy Ghost. You may need to really ponder on your feelings to distinguish how the Holy Ghost makes itself known to you. In other words, as Don Bradley indicates, obtain a spiritual experience. When you know Him, then you can ask which church is true and which you should belong to. And then, anything which isn't perfect in the particular church (and there is no church which is perfect), won't matter to your faith.

[Calm]

I'm right here listening (reading). Okay, so I'm only supposed to get the answers from the church published articles? Doesn't that seem one sided? What if someone is not so sure the answers are accurate? I have tried. I've lived on the side of pray and read your scriptures to know if it's true. But that's one sided. Shouldn't I get information from all sides and put them together for a more well rounded picture? The EV's you speak about are not in person, just sites that have sermons and what not. In fact I don't know a single EV right now. I watch shows, period. Shows that have led people out of the church, granted, not a great faith promoter but there have been very faithful LDS that have left. One is a bishop who comes off as very sincere, to me anyway. This is what I'm up against. I love the LDS people, they seem to be so picture perfect compared to some EV's who look a little scruffy or don't have the best buildings etc. But I'm trying to see the heart not the looks. I'm trying to see what it is to worship the Saviour. I'm wondering why we don't always speak of him in our worship services like they do. I know you believe He's talked about in a round about way and that what ever we talk about are things that he wants us to do. Like attending the temple etc. But it seems as if the EV's could go months on just a few scriptures in the bible. They delve so internally into it. Maybe we as LDS need to get back to the basics so one can get the relationship with Him and then go onto the other parts, even though some, like Elder Bruce R. McConkie, believe that to be a wrong concept, atleast the personal relationship with the Saviour part.

It seems to me that you are relying on other people to find the answers and then teach you. I don't think you will be satisfied with that because no one else besides you knows all the questions you have and what really bothers you about them, no one but you and the Lord. Do you want secondhand knowledge/experience or to know it for yourself?

add-on: I see sheilauk has said the same thing only much better than I did.

Edited October 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Bart Burk]

I'm right here listening (reading). Okay, so I'm only supposed to get the answers from the church published articles? Doesn't that seem one sided? What if someone is not so sure the answers are accurate? I have tried. I've lived on the side of pray and read your scriptures to know if it's true. But that's one sided. Shouldn't I get information from all sides and put them together for a more well rounded picture? The EV's you speak about are not in person, just sites that have sermons and what not. In fact I don't know a single EV right now. I watch shows, period. Shows that have led people out of the church, granted, not a great faith promoter but there have been very faithful LDS that have left. One is a bishop who comes off as very sincere, to me anyway. This is what I'm up against. I love the LDS people, they seem to be so picture perfect compared to some EV's who look a little scruffy or don't have the best buildings etc. But I'm trying to see the heart not the looks. I'm trying to see what it is to worship the Saviour. I'm wondering why we don't always speak of him in our worship services like they do. I know you believe He's talked about in a round about way and that what ever we talk about are things that he wants us to do. Like attending the temple etc. But it seems as if the EV's could go months on just a few scriptures in the bible. They delve so internally into it. Maybe we as LDS need to get back to the basics so one can get the relationship with Him and then go onto the other parts, even though some, like Elder Bruce R. McConkie, believe that to be a wrong concept, atleast the personal relationship with the Saviour part.

Don't forget the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics when you are doing your searching. And don't trust the EVs to give you any unbiased information about them either. What you will find is that EVs link together a few scriptures they call the Romans road and ignore the scriptures that don't line up with their saved by grace theology. And quite frankly, you can't find sola scriptura in the Bible -- that's something they invented.

http://www.catholic.com/radio/shows/sola-scriptura-7124

[Tacenda]

Thanks for those responses. If you were here I'd give you a hug, for now will you accept a cyber one? I'm going to try the suggestion to not only pray (that ones tough because it isn't satisfying to try to come up with something non repetitious) but speak to Him all throughout the day. My inactive sister told me this one after I told her once of my faith in the church crisis and then the crisis about any belief at all. She told me she talks to Him all day long. So this is a wonderful suggestion that I needed to hear again. In fact I'd love to build a family home evening around that! Our children would learn so much that way.

[Pahoran]

I'm glad you chimed in DB. I need to say this to someone that might have struggled with what I'm going to say. The crux of my problem is this. I've read that Satan (son of the morning) is the God of this world and that is why we so desparately need our Savior since Adam/Eve sinned when they went against their Father and partook of the fruit.

I want to know how so many of us can overlook all the evidences against the church being true.

Because "all the evidences" are not very many; nor are they very compelling.

And say we know through the holy ghost. Could the devil stand in place of the HG? Also we have even admitted to believing in a different Christ. Remember Pres. Hinckley's statement?

Yes I do. "Different" than what?

We believe in the Christ described in the Bible, not the one produced by committees of philosophers. Please note that the "different Christ" claim of the anti-Mormon propagandists -- namely, the assertion (or insinuation) that we worship someone other than Jesus of Nazareth -- is an utterly discredited anti-Mormon canard.

No informed person believes it, and no honest person argues it.

It is utterly and inexcusably false.

Now Tacenda, if you really don't know which Jesus you worship, then maybe you should seek the Lord while He may be found. And maybe this forum isn't the place to seek Him.

Another thing is most nonlds Christians would hold up the bible and fight tooth & nail in it's defense and being so bold as to saying 98% is true and the two percent that isn't is the grammar or punctuations, etc. I'm not saying they're right just showing their loyalty and comparing it to what I've seen with this thread.

And what is it that you've seen on this thread? That we are not bibliolaters?

What have you seen on this thread, Tacenda? That Latter-day Saints don't accept the silly notion that "The Word of God" exactly and only equals "The (Protestant) Bible?" How, after lo, those two-and-forty years, could this possibly come as a surprise to you?

And how the bible appears to have been somewhat discarded.

Not to anyone who knows what they are talking about.

I can see why that is so, since some of it might contradict mormonism. [sic]

While even more of it "might contradict" American Protestantism.

Back to the crux of my problem. Is Satan able to stand in place of the HG? And blind us to the truth? These have been my thoughts. I would love to stay LDS, but worry that our believing in a different Jesus is a problem.

"Different" from what, precisely?

Tacenda, from just about the first week this forum was founded (then known as the FAIRboard) we have had regular visits from people with the same schtick: they all claimed to be oh so faithful lifelong Mormons with "just one little question" about something or other. And as soon as that "just one little question" was answered, they would immediately trot out "just one [more] little question," and then just one more after that, and so on and so forth.

Funnily enough, all of these little questions were either bog-standard anti-Mormon talking points, or minor variations on the same.

And the more they talked, the less they sounded like Latter-day Saints, and the more like EV's or apostates with a cover story.

Sometimes we'd stumble across that same poster on another forum, saying things like "Come on over to the Mormon board and watch those gullible apologists dance to my tune."

So as you can see, we have ample experience of this sort of thing, and ample reasons to mistrust those who come to this board with that particular schtick. But despite that, we have taken you at your word and fielded question after question after question after question, and all of them rather standard anti-Mormon talking points.

Now I don't know for sure that you are one of those, Tacenda. But the more time goes by, the more you sound just like them.

So, given the fact that we have been extraordinarily patient with you, might I suggest that instead of trotting out your umpteenth "just one little question," how about you cut to the chase and tell us where you are really coming from?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Arbiter]

Hello Arbiter...

Sorry if I sound "dismissive" of Tacenda... and sorry Tacenda if you think I am being dismissive... I just become exasperated with her because, based on her own words, she seems to seek answers from sources other than those that will actually give her the truth she seeks.

I've been reading her 1300+ posts since she came on board in her struggle to find "truth" and the answers to her many questions, and instead of going to accurate, reliable sources available within the Church, let alone doing the studying, pondering, and praying about the scriptures, she runs to and fro quoting from here and there including her EV friends and seems to ignore the answers she receives here.

Don Bradley's experience is one that we can all benefit from in times when we have questions, and I'm sure we all do... but in Tacenda's case I find it really baffling that someone who claims to have been active etc for 42 years can actually be concerned about the Church teaching about a different Jesus...

So... I apologize... it is not my intent to be dismissive or hurtful... but I do state firmly that those seeking answers should just stop and stand still and wait upon the Lord through prayer and even fasting if possible... then start methodically going through each issue. The more studying and praying about an issue, the more questions regarding other issues will be answered also... this is a lot different than tossing out a question, getting a discussion going, then running on to ask something else...

GG

Looks like I misjudged you too. I hope you'll forgive me. I'm new. I still find a lot of honest searching vibes in Tacenda's posts. But I've been known to get exasperated with little provocation myself. I think all is well.

[Arbiter]

I'm right here listening (reading). Okay, so I'm only supposed to get the answers from the church published articles? Doesn't that seem one sided? What if someone is not so sure the answers are accurate? I have tried. I've lived on the side of pray and read your scriptures to know if it's true. But that's one sided. Shouldn't I get information from all sides and put them together for a more well rounded picture?

You shouldn't be afraid of a mere source of information. But I don't think you'll find something that's the Holy Grail you've been looking for, either exclusively on Church sites or anywhere else. Faith is the kind of thing that can't really be proven or disproven. Besides, there isn't one side, the Church, and one other side. There's the Church and a million other sides. You can drive yourself crazy.

The Church sites are very, very nice. I genuinely like them a lot. They are beautifully written, and they load fast and page back and forth fast too. Killer tools too, if you have a class to prepare, or a talk to write. I love how I can enter a scripture reference, and it comes up with the verses highlighted. I love that. It really looks like the problems the Church once most certainly did have, of dissembling when something embarrassing turned up, just aren't there any more. You can't hide anything anyway now. The internet has made it all but impossible. Just be just as skeptical of what you read anywhere, as you are about what you read on mainline church sites. That way you can't go wrong.

[Tacenda]

Because "all the evidences" are not very many; nor are they very compelling.

Yes I do. "Different" than what?

We believe in the Christ described in the Bible, not the one produced by committees of philosophers. Please note that the "different Christ" claim of the anti-Mormon propagandists -- namely, the assertion (or insinuation) that we worship someone other than Jesus of Nazareth -- is an utterly discredited anti-Mormon canard.

No informed person believes it, and no honest person argues it.

It is utterly and inexcusably false.

Now Tacenda, if you really don't know which Jesus you worship, then maybe you should seek the Lord while He may be found. And maybe this forum isn't the place to seek Him.

And what is it that you've seen on this thread? That we are not bibliolaters?

What have you seen on this thread, Tacenda? That Latter-day Saints don't accept the silly notion that "The Word of God" exactly and only equals "The (Protestant) Bible?" How, after lo, those two-and-forty years, could this possibly come as a surprise to you?

Not to anyone who knows what they are talking about.

While even more of it "might contradict" American Protestantism.

"Different" from what, precisely?

Tacenda, from just about the first week this forum was founded (then known as the FAIRboard) we have had regular visits from people with the same schtick: they all claimed to be oh so faithful lifelong Mormons with "just one little question" about something or other. And as soon as that "just one little question" was answered, they would immediately trot out "just one [more] little question," and then just one more after that, and so on and so forth.

Funnily enough, all of these little questions were either bog-standard anti-Mormon talking points, or minor variations on the same.

And the more they talked, the less they sounded like Latter-day Saints, and the more like EV's or apostates with a cover story.

Sometimes we'd stumble across that same poster on another forum, saying things like "Come on over to the Mormon board and watch those gullible apologists dance to my tune."

So as you can see, we have ample experience of this sort of thing, and ample reasons to mistrust those who come to this board with that particular schtick. But despite that, we have taken you at your word and fielded question after question after question after question, and all of them rather standard anti-Mormon talking points.

Now I don't know for sure that you are one of those, Tacenda. But the more time goes by, the more you sound just like them.

So, given the fact that we have been extraordinarily patient with you, might I suggest that instead of trotting out your umpteenth "just one little question," how about you cut to the chase and tell us where you are really coming from?

Regards,

Pahoran

Do you need my driver's license and temple recommend number? I'm not a poser. The real thing. I know it's difficult for you to believe that members might leave because of historical issues. It must be that I've sinned or was offended. Even though I'm active this doesn't apply yet but is typically what members might think. My newly put in bishop knows what I'm going through, that is if my former bishop relayed the info to him. I stumbled onto info while searching the internet about 6 six yrs. ago it was the website telling about JS wives. I didn't know the extent. Then one thing led to another. And then found Staylds.com and then NOM and now this board. The ability to discuss these subjects with believing members has done alot of good. But I understand that I come up with doozies and it's from watching EV shows. I love some advice I received today. I think I finally will be able to put some issues to rest. Thanks to the spirit I felt. Sound cheesy or made up? Maybe. But hopefully you feel the spirit that it's not. And I admit I very well could have been anti but don't ever want that. Edited October 4, 2012 by Tacenda