Don Bradley'S Return To The Church

[volgadon]

Not lead from God, I never said that. I said the word of God, the bible. I know having been LDS for 42 yrs. that I rarely heard the bible be openly described as "the word of God".

The Bible isn't THE word of God. None of the scriptures are. They are records of a portion of the word of God and that is a significant distinction. All this being said, I have heard the term frequently.

[volgadon]

Alright, I invite you to substantiate your guffaw.

When you are ready, let me know. We can even open a new thread.

[Tacenda]

When you are ready, let me know. We can even open a new thread.

My "hah" was not meant to be a guffaw. It was a "stomp your foot and turn around quickly and walk away" expression. Not a "laugh out loud and make fun of" expression. Edited September 29, 2012 by Tacenda

[volgadon]

My "hah" was not meant to be a guffaw. It was a "stomp your foot and turn around quickly and walk away" expression. Not a "laugh out loud and make fun of" expression.

Whatever it was, if you want to show how the DSS prove the Bible, I'll be happy to start a new thread for you.

[Tacenda]

Whatever it was, if you want to show how the DSS prove the Bible, I'll be happy to start a new thread for you.

That's up to you.

[volgadon]

That's up to you.

Well, no, not if you won't post. Substantiating your assertions, that is your choice.

[Tacenda]

I didn't mean to assert anything but made an assumption instead.

[altersteve]

Does anyone ever get asked to pray to know if the bible is true?

Well I'm sure someone has.

[DBMormon]

I believe the bible to be true and thankful we now have the Dead Sea Scrolls as evidence of that.

I wish the BofM had that much. But just as the bible has a talking donkey, we have JS having seen God and Jesus, in both instances I have to wonder if the author might have used some kind of hallucinogen of some sort. Wild mushrooms or the Datura plant possibly.

by 100% true I mean is contains figurative stories, incorrect staements about scientific issues (earth is flat) and so it is not a standard to measure all truth. Otherwise world would be flat. So one must appeal to another source.... the Holy Ghost to confirm truth in all places including the BOM and the church

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/54790798-80/bradley-mormon-faith-smith.html.csp

One LDS I would love to interview is this man. I know he is on here sometimes. I think his journey is amazing and should implore those who have left the church to keep their eyes open to new answers. Way too many people leave without hammering out some of their issues and I sure hope they give it another look.

I had been waiting for a long time to read his story and glad to finally have found it.

- Are the critics/ex-mormons smarter then Bradley, Givens, Barlow, ect...?

My point is many leave the church thinking they wised up and saw the truth and yet smarter men have stayed.

- If Bradley can come back anyone can.

I realize some have left with what they thought were good reasons and I respect that just trying to say this is not a faith for just naive people who are brainwashed though there are some those in this church just like any other faith.

Homecomings are always great.

[Tacenda]

by 100% true I mean is contains figurative stories, incorrect staements about scientific issues (earth is flat) and so it is not a standard to measure all truth. Otherwise world would be flat. So one must appeal to another source.... the Holy Ghost to confirm truth in all places including the BOM and the church

I'm glad you chimed in DB. I need to say this to someone that might have struggled with what I'm going to say. The crux of my problem is this. I've read that Satan (son of the morning) is the God of this world and that is why we so desparately need our Savior since Adam/Eve sinned when they went against their Father and partook of the fruit.

I want to know how so many of us can overlook all the evidences against the church being true. And say we know through the holy ghost. Could the devil stand in place of the HG? Also we have even admitted to believing in a different Christ. Remember Pres. Hinckley's statement? Another thing is most nonlds Christians would hold up the bible and fight tooth & nail in it's defense and being so bold as to saying 98% is true and the two percent that isn't is the grammar or punctuations, etc. I'm not saying they're right just showing their loyalty and comparing it to what I've seen with this thread. And how the bible appears to have been somewhat discarded. I can see why that is so, since some of it might contradict mormonism. Back to the crux of my problem. Is Satan able to stand in place of the HG? And blind us to the truth? These have been my thoughts. I would love to stay LDS, but worry that our believing in a different Jesus is a problem.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

Back to the crux of my problem. Is Satan able to stand in place of the HG? And blind us to the truth?

As you will no doubt be aware, the Saviour Himself was repeatedly accused of being possessed by the devil and therefore teaching false doctrine. He gave His accusers a simple test: 'If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself'.

I would love to stay LDS.

If that's really what you want, then you know what to do.

And then you'll know.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bart Burk]

I'm glad you chimed in DB. I need to say this to someone that might have struggled with what I'm going to say. The crux of my problem is this. I've read that Satan (son of the morning) is the God of this world and that is why we so desparately need our Savior since Adam/Eve sinned when they went against their Father and partook of the fruit.

I want to know how so many of us can overlook all the evidences against the church being true. And say we know through the holy ghost. Could the devil stand in place of the HG? Also we have even admitted to believing in a different Christ. Remember Pres. Hinckley's statement? Another thing is most nonlds Christians would hold up the bible and fight tooth & nail in it's defense and being so bold as to saying 98% is true and the two percent that isn't is the grammar or punctuations, etc. I'm not saying they're right just showing their loyalty and comparing it to what I've seen with this thread. And how the bible appears to have been somewhat discarded. I can see why that is so, since some of it might contradict mormonism. Back to the crux of my problem. Is Satan able to stand in place of the HG? And blind us to the truth? These have been my thoughts. I would love to stay LDS, but worry that our believing in a different Jesus is a problem.

I don't know of any LDS who have discarded their Bible. But leaning on the Bible alone has resulted in literally thousands of Protestant denominations based on each one's interpretation of the Bible. The Arminians battle the Calvinists. Infant baptism or adult baptism? Which day is the Sabbath? And on and on and on. When I left the LDS, I went through a Protestant stage until I realized that for the most part evangelical Protestantism was as much entertainment as worship. And so many of them were voting to ignore the moral teachings of the Bible! At least for me the Protestants did not provide a safe place to rest. Who knew how they were going to interpret the Bible tomorrow?

[Tacenda]

As I look around my house I have pictures of the Savior all around. And scriptures lay nearby. But I really wonder if all these years it's all for looks. I've never really known my Savior. I think I'm a complete fake. To the outsider it looks as if I'm close to the Lord. But in actuality I choose the remote or mouse over the scriptures. In the past I'd choose a movie over the temple for date night. What a pathetic loser. And when I see the real Christlike behavior of those that don't appear to be at first, I notice their actions and it speaks volumes compared to my pictures on the wall, etc.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Tacenda

[why me]

Looks to me like something has led you away from... rather than nearer...to the word of God, the bible.

The bible has not been proven true at all. It all takes faith. It would be wonderful if a journal were found by someone at the time of christ where the person writes of Christ's miracles but no such luck so far. We only have the bible and as we know the gospels were written long after the death of christ.

We don't even have 11 witnesses to the bible and what it says. It would certainly be nice if we had 11 average people testify that the record of christ is true because they saw the miracles or experienced the miracles. But no such luck.

We are governed by faith.

[why me]

That's up to you.

When the DSS was discovered it was hoped that it would confirm the account of jesus. But no such luck. It did not cofirm that Christ is the Christ, unfortunately. But I wished it did. The world would have needed such a confirmation. We still need faith that the bible is what it claims to be.

[why me]

Tacenda, Don's return to church was based on a powerful experience that he had that confirmed for him that the lds church is true. And he seems to have cemented that experience through his own research into church history and with Joseph Smith. But I think that his spiritual experienced most likely trumped church history, even though he is finding his research faith building.

[Tacenda]

The bible has not been proven true at all. It all takes faith. It would be wonderful if a journal were found by someone at the time of christ where the person writes of Christ's miracles but no such luck so far. We only have the bible and as we know the gospels were written long after the death of christ.

We don't even have 11 witnesses to the bible and what it says. It would certainly be nice if we had 11 average people testify that the record of christ is true because they saw the miracles or experienced the miracles. But no such luck.

We are governed by faith.

Why Me, I think the books in the bible are journals, that testify of Him.

[why me]

Why Me, I think the books in the bible are journals, that testify of Him.

True. But we do not have any collaboration of those journals. What we do have is a written record by men decades after the event. We have nothing written during the time of the event. We have no witnesses. It all takes faith. But we do have 11 witnesses to the book of mormon that testify to its truthfulness. And if they are correct then the book of mormon becomes a second testament of christ. Thus, the proof.

[Tacenda]

True. But we do not have any collaboration of those journals. What we do have is a written record by men decades after the event. We have nothing written during the time of the event. We have no witnesses. It all takes faith. But we do have 11 witnesses to the book of mormon that testify to its truthfulness. And if they are correct then the book of mormon becomes a second testament of christ. Thus, the proof.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were eyewitnesses. And as long as it is written down within a generation, typically 70 yrs. then they are deemed accurate.

I hate to tell you Why Me but the BoM witnesses saw the plates with visionary eyes and they were related to JS. So some don't give these witnesses alot of credit either.

[why me]

I hate to tell you Why Me but the BoM witnesses saw the plates with visionary eyes and they were related to JS. So some don't give these witnesses alot of credit either.

So, all were involved in a fraud that they never denied? And visionary eyes? What does that mean? All the witnesses testified to what they saw and felt. No one denied it. Here is john whitmer:

John Whitmer may be my favorite official witness to the Book of Mormon.

With the rest of the Eight Witnesses, he claimed to have “seen,” “handled” and “hefted” the golden plates in June 1829. Seven years later, he again wrote forcefully of that experience:

“I desire to testify to all that will come to the knowledge of this address, that I have most assuredly seen the plates from whence the Book of Mormon is translated, and that I have handled these plates, and know of a surety that Joseph Smith, Jr., has translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. And in this thing the wisdom of the wise most assuredly has perished. Therefore, know ye, O ye inhabitants of the earth, wherever this address may come, that I have in this thing freed my garments of your blood, whether you believe or disbelieve.”

http://www.ldsliving.com/story/67474-defending-the-faith-john-whitmer-left-church-but-kept-testimony-of-book-of-mormon

And what about Jacob Whitmer:

Even though Jacob severed his relationship with the Church, he never denied his experience with the gold plates and the Book of Mormon. In 1888, John C. Whitmer, Jacob's son, recalled his father's last words about his part as a witness. This is what he said, "My father (Jacob Whitmer) was always faithful and true to his testimony in regard to the Book of Mormon, and confirmed it on his deathbed."

If I were about to die, and I was about to go meet God, the last thing I would want is to keep a lie going. I would want to clear my conscience as fast as I could. He had every opportunity and every reason to do it. He had nothing to gain by keeping the story going, and nothing to lose by going public with a recantation of his testimony. The fact is that he never recanted, even on his death bed, because he knew what he had witnessed and signed his name too was true. And here's the kicker, Jacob Whitmer has an image of an open Book of Mormon etched into his headstone. On the back is an inscription that reads "Jacob was one of the eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon". Jacob's testimony is literally etched in stone.

http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/Jacob_Whitmer.html

And david whitmer:

Even though David Whitmer never reconciled his feelings about Joseph Smith or regain his membership in The LDS Church, he wanted his testimony to be set straight. In March 19, 1881, seven years prior to his death, David Whitmer published the following affidavit in the local newspaper. He had some a few of the top residents of that State of Missouri vouch for his character and competency.

"Unto all nations, kindred, tongues and people unto whom these presents shall come: It having been represented by one John Murphy of Polo (Caldwell County), Missouri, that I had in a conversation with him last summer, denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon….

"To the end, therefore, that he may understand me now if he did not then, and that the world may know the truth, I wish now, standing as it were, in the very sunset of life, and in the fear of God, once for all to make this public statement:

"That I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that book, as one of the three witnesses.

"Those who know me best, will know that I have always adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do now again affirm the truth of all my statements as then made and published.

"He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear; it was no delusion. What is written is written and he that readeth let him understand. And if any man doubt, should he not carefully and honestly read and understand the same before presuming to sit in judgment, and condemning the light which shineth in darkness, and showeth the way of eternal life, as pointed out by the hand of God?

"In the Spirit of Christ who hath said follow thou me, for I am the life, the light and the way, I submit this statement to the world, God in whom I trust being my Judge, as to the sincerity of my motives and the faith and hope that is in me of eternal life.

"My sincere desire is that the world may be benefited by the plain and simple statement of the truth.

"And all the honor be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."

http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/David_Whitmer.html

What visionary eyes are you talking about?

[why me]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were eyewitnesses. And as long as it is written down within a generation, typically 70 yrs. then they are deemed accurate.

Well, actually, we have no other sources besides these individuals. And at times their stories vary. But it would be nice to have a journal from that time verifying the bible. But we have none. And atheist would say that the writers made it all up since we have no other verification. Sad, that you can believe these writers but not the witnesses to the book of mormon. Most of whom died giving their testimony of the book of mormon. And two requesting their testimony be put on their tombstone: jacob whitmer and David Whitmer.

[webbles]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were eyewitnesses. And as long as it is written down within a generation, typically 70 yrs. then they are deemed accurate.

Luke wasn't an eyewitness of Christ. The authorship of the other three Gospels might not even be by the their named apostles. Check out the wikipedia page for each of them and read the section about authorship.

[Avatar4321]

http://www.sltrib.co...-smith.html.csp

One LDS I would love to interview is this man. I know he is on here sometimes. I think his journey is amazing and should implore those who have left the church to keep their eyes open to new answers. Way too many people leave without hammering out some of their issues and I sure hope they give it another look.

I had been waiting for a long time to read his story and glad to finally have found it.

- Are the critics/ex-mormons smarter then Bradley, Givens, Barlow, ect...?

My point is many leave the church thinking they wised up and saw the truth and yet smarter men have stayed.

- If Bradley can come back anyone can.

I realize some have left with what they thought were good reasons and I respect that just trying to say this is not a faith for just naive people who are brainwashed though there are some those in this church just like any other faith.

Anyone can come back. The Gospel is true.

[Sky]

I'm happy that Don Bradley found his way back into the fold. He truly seems happy and secure in his faith. Perhaps I'll get to meet him sometime. I think his experience shows that there is still room for faith in a skeptical world if we seek after it. What a great spot to be in to have both spiritual experiences and intellectual knowledge.