I Am Not A Christian

[EllenMaksoud]

Recently I was working outside in a nearby city just a few long blocks from Azua Pacific University [ An local EV College ] and I happened to be wearing one of my T-shirts with a picture of Jesus Christ on the back with a statement of "My Master" underneath the picture. An evangelical Christian approached me who I believed works nearby who saw me wearing the shirt and asked "what does that mean ?" [in reference to the " My Master" statement on my shirt]. I told him that Jesus Christ was - The LORD OF LIFE/LORD/Redeemer/Saviour/God/King and Master. I boldly told him I was a member of the Church Of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints. He immediatly told me we had a different Jesus because we do not believe he is Eternal [ He did not mention The Spirit Brother Of Lucifer or any other criticisms]. I told him our scriptures declare that He Is Eternal but that the hebrew and greek word for eternal was an indefinate period of time, a very long time and studies had been done that show this. His response was studies have been done that refute that concept. He walked away believing I was hell bound because of this one area of false doctrine. Any thoughts ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Yex, you just encountered the Dark Side.

[thesometimesaint]

Don't you just love it when someone tries to tell you what you believe.

[pmccombs1]

... He immediatly told me we had a different Jesus because we do not believe he is Eternal [ He did not mention The Spirit Brother Of Lucifer or any other criticisms].

You might have told him that you sincerely hold some beliefs about Jesus that others might not agree with, and it's possible that maybe you got some things wrong about Him--but that you still think He's the same fellow the Evangelicals believe in. You might point out that sometimes children might make mistakes about something as simple as the sun, and perhaps they think it is pretty close by instead of far away. Just because the kids might be wrong about the sun, it doesn't mean they believe in a different sun than the astronomers who know more about it. We are all children when it comes to understanding God and Jesus, but we like to think we're believing in the same thing even if we understand it differently.

He walked away believing I was hell bound because of this one area of false doctrine. Any thoughts ?

If my above argument fails you the next time you encounter this situation, you might point out something that I once learned from a TV show¹. You can say that "heaven is for people who like the sort of things that go on in heaven. Like, well, singing, talking to God, watering pot plants." At that point you can get a little smug and suggest with some relish that, "Hell, on the other hand, is for people who like the other sorts of things: adultery, pillage, torture... those areas."

You could also ask that person if they think "hellbound" is a good name for a rock band. That might change the subject.

----

¹The show I am referring to is called Blackadder, and it isn't a very Christian thing to watch because it is sometimes very rude. But I like it. There's a chance I might go to hell too.

Edited June 7, 2013 by pmccombs1

[CA Steve]

Are the FLDS followers of Joseph Smith?

[Tacenda]

Are the FLDS followers of Joseph Smith?

Yes, and often his portrait along with BY are seen on the wall. Along with a picture of their current leaders. Edited June 8, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Yes, and often his portrait along with BY are seen on the wall. Along with a picture of their current leaders.

Are the FLDS followers of Joseph Smith?

Define "followers".

I would say they think they follow him and sincerely try to do so in my mind, how successful they are actually at such is debatable. If they are in apostasy, I would conclude they have misstepped, ignored a crucial principle or more or possibly altered or added to it and thus have not followed all of his actual teachings.

Of course, not every LDS is a successful follower of Joseph Smith either.

Edited June 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Avatar4321]

Don't you just love it when someone tries to tell you what you believe.

Yes. It's probably why i get along so great on political and religious message boards.

[Avatar4321]

Yes, and often his portrait along with BY are seen on the wall. Along with a picture of their current leaders.

And then turn around and ignore most of what they both taught.

[CA Steve]

Define "followers".

I would say they think they follow him and sincerely try to do so in my mind, how successful they are actually at such is debatable. If they are in apostasy, I would conclude they have misstepped, ignored a crucial principle or more or possibly altered or added to it and thus have not followed all of his actual teachings.

Of course, not every LDS is a successful follower of Joseph Smith either.

The definition of "follower" is the issue.

If we claim the FLDS are not followers of Joseph Smith because they are in apostacy, aren't we using the same logic our critcs use against us to claim we are not Christians?

Edited June 8, 2013 by CA Steve

[Calm]

The definition of "follower" is the issue.

If we claim the FLDS are not followers of Joseph Smith because they are in apostacy, aren't we using the same logic our critcs use against us to claim we are not Christians?

Well, I don't use that logic. I just say they are not successful, even if sincere followers just as someone can be a Christian but not a very good one (and that can involve more than one rule of measurement). Edited June 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[coolrok7]

Tanyan, Evangelicals and Mormons do have totally different ideas as to what “Eternal” means in our doctrinal differences that exist in our understanding on the nature of God. Elder Brockbank said the following at the April 1977 Conference under the title of: "The Living Christ":

Many of the Christian churches in the British Isles do not consider or recognize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a Christian church.

The following statement was printed in the London Times:

“Are the Mormons Christians? Certainly they claim to be followers of Christ and hence entitled to take their place alongside other denominations as another Christian church. …

“In fact, there is good reason for regarding them as a new religion rather than as another variety of Christianity. The Christ they follow is both the Christian Messiah of the New Testament, and the Risen Christ who visited the New World after the end of His ministry in the old one. Traditional Christianity—Roman Catholic [and] Protestant … —rejects the very existence of this Christ who reappeared on earth after the Ascension, and so the Christ followed by the Mormons is not the Christ followed by traditional Christianity.” (“Alcohol, tea, and smoking banned,” The London Times, June 18, 1976, special supplement on Mormons, p. II.)

It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For example, from the Church of England’s Articles of Religion, article one, I quote: “There is but one living God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions.”

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions. We also believe that the trinity of the Godhead is made up of three separate personages—God, the Eternal Father; Jesus Christ, the Son of God—our Savior; and the Holy Ghost. These two concepts of the Trinity and their attributes are completely different. (The Ensign, Elder Bernard P. Brockbank, May 1977)

[thesometimesaint]

I may think that former US President "Bill" Clinton is the worst person in the world. You may think just the opposite. But we are still talking about the same person.

[Stargazer]

Tanyan, Evangelicals and Mormons do have totally different ideas as to what “Eternal” means in our doctrinal differences that exist in our understanding on the nature of God. Elder Brockbank said the following at the April 1977 Conference under the title of: "The Living Christ":

Many of the Christian churches in the British Isles do not consider or recognize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a Christian church.

The following statement was printed in the London Times:

“Are the Mormons Christians? Certainly they claim to be followers of Christ and hence entitled to take their place alongside other denominations as another Christian church. …

“In fact, there is good reason for regarding them as a new religion rather than as another variety of Christianity. The Christ they follow is both the Christian Messiah of the New Testament, and the Risen Christ who visited the New World after the end of His ministry in the old one. Traditional Christianity—Roman Catholic [and] Protestant … —rejects the very existence of this Christ who reappeared on earth after the Ascension, and so the Christ followed by the Mormons is not the Christ followed by traditional Christianity.” (“Alcohol, tea, and smoking banned,” The London Times, June 18, 1976, special supplement on Mormons, p. II.)

It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For example, from the Church of England’s Articles of Religion, article one, I quote: “There is but one living God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions.”

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions. We also believe that the trinity of the Godhead is made up of three separate personages—God, the Eternal Father; Jesus Christ, the Son of God—our Savior; and the Holy Ghost. These two concepts of the Trinity and their attributes are completely different. (The Ensign, Elder Bernard P. Brockbank, May 1977)

And your point is?

This whole notion of "a different Christ" is incredibly ridiculous. Nobody knows for certain how tall the mortal Jesus stood. Was He 5'8" or 5'4"? Heck, I don't know. But if I were to say I believe Jesus stood 5'9" tall, and you said that's crazy he was 5'4", would you then claim that I was talking about a different Jesus from the Jesus I was talking about? Any rational and objective observer would have to say that we were talking about the same person, but we just had differing opinions as to the value of certain characteristics. What if I thought He had red hair, and you were convinced he had black hair? He's still the same Jesus.

So, you say he is without body, parts or passions. I say he had a body, laid it down, and has it again now; has parts to his mortal body, has parts to his present body; and has lots of passions, otherwise the shortest verse in the Bible, John 11:35 ("Jesus wept") is a flat-out lie. Now, your belief that Jesus is without body, parts or passions flies directly in the face of the bald facts as shown in the scriptures. But there is no way in the world that I could ever bring myself to state that you worship a different Jesus than I do. It would be irrational in the extreme for me to say that you are not a Christian because you disagree with me over certain characteristics of Jesus Christ. You might be wrong; I might be wrong. BUT HE'S THE SAME JESUS.

[Anakin7]

Tanyan, Evangelicals and Mormons do have totally different ideas as to what “Eternal” means in our doctrinal differences that exist in our understanding on the nature of God. Elder Brockbank said the following at the April 1977 Conference under the title of: "The Living Christ":

coolrok my missouri Lutheran synod friend thank you for your post. Eternal can mean "out of time, or a really long period of time". I Am reminded once again of mote's and Beam's and casting stones syndrom of many. And of course there are Evangelical Christians that see and hear doctrinal differences in Lutheran theology as well. My past 2 months have been uplifting as I have met 2 Southern Baptist Ministers and 4 Calvery Chapel street ministers and have had friendly discussions with them and they affirmed that they will see Mormons in Heaven. By The way I am Anakin7 here not Tanyan.

May True Grace be With You

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited June 11, 2013 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Stargazer, Jesus’ physical appearance was not my point at all in which I was responding to the point raised concerning the nature of "eternal" and how it applies to Jesus.

[BlueDreams]

Stargazer, Jesus’ physical appearance was not my point at all in which I was responding to the point raised concerning the nature of "eternal" and how it applies to Jesus.

I'm missing it.....I don't see how this illuminated the nature of "eternal" and how it applies to Jesus for either LDS or otherwise. An explanation would be so much better.

Plus, I just read the whole talk. I don't think he was using "different jesus" in the same means that is often used by Ev's...which often assumes a more literal form of the idea "different jesus"....his was more a play on common terms to make the point that there are false doctrines taught about the same Being that leads to false commands, ideas, and worship forms.

With luv,

BD

[coolrok7]

Sorry Anakin7, I had inadvertently posted with your old name from ZLMB as I had been looking at an old comment of yours and didn't pick up on that I had typed your older screen name when I hit the post button.

I’m on a mini-vacation up in Solvang and yesterday I was on my way out the door and rushed my initial response. I wasn’t really finished developing my opening point to you.

[coolrok7]

BlueDreams, this is the part of the quote which I was referring to concerning the idea of being “completely different” (or the “another Jesus” of Paul when it comes to Him being “eternal” from “everlasting to everlasting”):

. . .The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions. We also believe that the trinity of the Godhead is made up of three separate personages—God, the Eternal Father; Jesus Christ, the Son of God—our Savior; and the Holy Ghost. These two concepts of the Trinity and their attributes are completely different. (The Ensign, Elder Bernard P. Brockbank, May 1977)

Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. (Psalm 90:1-2)

Edited June 11, 2013 by coolrok7

[Anakin7]

Sorry Anakin7, I had inadvertently posted with your old name from ZLMB as I had been looking at an old comment of yours and didn't pick up on that I had typed your older screen name when I hit the post button.

I’m on a mini-vacation up in Solvang and yesterday I was on my way out the door and rushed my initial response. I wasn’t really finished developing my opening point to you.

No problem my Lutheran Synod Friend. I am off to pick up my wife at this time. Will come back when time allows.

Salvation Is Absolutly Free But It Will Cost Us Our Very Lives

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Stone holm]

We used to get that rhetoric all the time back in the Midwest. The Church has spent a lot of time and effort trying to convince the Evangelicals we are Christian. The simple truth. Is we are, but our God and their god are not the same god.

[Stargazer]

Stargazer, Jesus’ physical appearance was not my point at all in which I was responding to the point raised concerning the nature of "eternal" and how it applies to Jesus.

So it wasn't your point. OK. I'm not saying that it was. And of course I wasn't responding specifically to you, but to this bankrupt "different Jesus" idea. And my bringing up Jesus' physical appearance was simply to do a reductio ad absurdam to the point that I was trying to raise. Which that just because I have a different conception of Jesus from you does not make a non-Christian out of me, nor am I worshipping a different Christ.

Now, as to the eternality of Jesus, well, He's eternal. That's something I believe with all my heart.

[coolrok7]

Your statement below (as an aside) is what I had in mind when I used “Tanyan” for your screen name earlier.

By me saying below that, “you don’t accurately reflect the Mormon view of God. . .”, you were making your points to those you were talking to using Evangelical verbiage before I knew who you were, a bit disingenuous to me on your part after listening to you before the different meetings had actually started):

Tanyan, it was at the meeting at Mariners recently where I finally got to meet you personally, not just a name on a screen. This was after the initial meeting with Greg Johnson/Bob Millet and their traveling Evangelical/Mormon dialogue (which I didn’t get to attend but saw the DVD, although I had attended an earlier one at the Stake building in Anaheim Hills several years ago). . . .

“coolrok7 and Tanyan meet.

Last night at Mariners Church in Irvine Ca. there was an Evangelical/LDS Discussion group that met at Mariners Church. There were 6 in attendance [2 moderators, Charlotte Pardee of EXMFJ and her Husband, coolrok7, and 1 LDS/Mormon - ME !-OUCH]. Is was a positive experience for everone involved. Looking forward to the next one next week [As far as I know I will be able to attend] Just a shout out to coolrok7 thanks again for carrying that bag for me !. For some stange reason everyone there thought that I was a somewhat different LDS than they had ever met in the past. Anyway may Grace Rain on all this day. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNiGHT.”

It was in the follow-up meetings where Mormons were invited to participate if they wanted to, in which you showed up (a small group setting). It was determined by those listening to you (myself included), based on what you were saying, you don’t accurately reflect the Mormon view of God, although you do consider yourself to be “Mormon” in belief.

It wasn't exactly a positive but I did finally get to meet you in person after tying to before these meetings when we were at ZLMB for several years before.

[Calm]

a bit disingenuous to me on your part

Are you claiming that this is what he appeared to be then to you, but you have since changed your mind now that you know him a bit better or are you claiming his approach was and is "a bit disingenuous".

you were making your points to those you were talking to using Evangelical verbiage

Can you explain to me what is wrong with trying to speak to someone in their own language?

[Ahab]

We used to get that rhetoric all the time back in the Midwest. The Church has spent a lot of time and effort trying to convince the Evangelicals we are Christian. The simple truth. Is we are, but our God and their god are not the same god.

They just don't know him as well as we do, and when we try to tell them the additional truth points we know about him they tend to tune those points out because they go against their own false teachings about him. And they also don't like to believe they are wrong.

[Stone holm]

They just don't know him as well as we do, and when we try to tell them the additional truth points we know about him they tend to tune those points out because they go against their own false teachings about him. And they also don't like to believe they are wrong.

They go by the same names, but their doctrines and their natures are different. I don't see why we disagree with them, just tell them, "Yep, we don't believe in the god that you do, go ahead and worship gas if you want."