I Am Not A Christian

[Anakin7]

Recently I was working outside in a nearby city just a few long blocks from Azua Pacific University [ An local EV College ] and I happened to be wearing one of my T-shirts with a picture of Jesus Christ on the back with a statement of "My Master" underneath the picture. An evangelical Christian approached me who I believed works nearby who saw me wearing the shirt and asked "what does that mean ?" [in reference to the " My Master" statement on my shirt]. I told him that Jesus Christ was - The LORD OF LIFE/LORD/Redeemer/Saviour/God/King and Master. I boldly told him I was a member of the Church Of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints. He immediatly told me we had a different Jesus because we do not believe he is Eternal [ He did not mention The Spirit Brother Of Lucifer or any other criticisms]. I told him our scriptures declare that He Is Eternal but that the hebrew and greek word for eternal was an indefinate period of time, a very long time and studies had been done that show this. His response was studies have been done that refute that concept. He walked away believing I was hell bound because of this one area of false doctrine. Any thoughts ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[KevinG]

A newly departed Baptist was taken to heaven and escorted through the Pearly Gates. Upon arriving he was given a tour by St Peter. They walked through courses of angels playing harps upon billowing clouds and past large groups of the saved who were worshiping God with songs of praise. After a while the man became curious and asked "what happened to all of those who did not believe in the correct religion?" St. Peter parted the clouds and he gazed upon a lake of fire and brimstone. Devils were torturing many wicked souls with hellfire and pitchforks as they shrieked in misery and pain.

As he gazed upon the terrible scene he saw a patch of green forest, gardens and beautiful fountains with happy men and women toiling in the garden and playing with their children. The man asked St. Peter what was going on there. St. Peter replied, "oh, those are the Mormons. We can't keep them from turning hell into a heavenly place."

[Vance]

WOW!!!

I am surprised that his argument didn't convince you!

/s

[zerinus]

Recently I was working outside in a nearby city just a few long blocks from Azua Pacific University [ An local EV College ] and I happened to be wearing one of my T-shirts with a picture of Jesus Christ on the back with a statement of "My Master" underneath the picture. An evangelical Christian approached me who I believed works nearby who saw me wearing the shirt and asked "what does that mean ?" [in reference to the " My Master" statement on my shirt]. I told him that Jesus Christ was - The LORD OF LIFE/LORD/Redeemer/Saviour/God/King and Master. I boldly told him I was a member of the Church Of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints. He immediatly told me we had a different Jesus because we do not believe he is Eternal [ He did not mention The Spirit Brother Of Lucifer or any other criticisms]. I told him our scriptures declare that He Is Eternal but that the hebrew and greek word for eternal was an indefinate period of time, a very long time and studies had been done that show this. His response was studies have been done that refute that concept. He walked away believing I was hell bound because of this one area of false doctrine. Any thoughts ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

I would have given him a different answer. I would have told him he believed in a "different Jesus;" we believe in the Jesus of the Bible. As for the eternity of Jesus, I would have agree with him that Jesus is eternal.

Edited September 14, 2012 by zerinus

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Recently I was working outside in a nearby city just a few long blocks from Azua Pacific University [ An local EV College ] and I happened to be wearing one of my T-shirts with a picture of Jesus Christ on the back with a statement of "My Master" underneath the picture. An evangelical Christian approached me who I believed works nearby who saw me wearing the shirt and asked "what does that mean ?" [in reference to the " My Master" statement on my shirt]. I told him that Jesus Christ was - The LORD OF LIFE/LORD/Redeemer/Saviour/God/King and Master. I boldly told him I was a member of the Church Of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints. He immediatly told me we had a different Jesus because we do not believe he is Eternal [ He did not mention The Spirit Brother Of Lucifer or any other criticisms]. I told him our scriptures declare that He Is Eternal but that the hebrew and greek word for eternal was an indefinate period of time, a very long time and studies had been done that show this. His response was studies have been done that refute that concept. He walked away believing I was hell bound because of this one area of false doctrine. Any thoughts ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Far too often this type of thing occurs...individuals cannot be content that one believes and follows the teachings of Christ, but is only concerned in you follow their idea of who Christ is or is not. This is a recent phenomenon with the EV movement and the counter-cult community. They are accepting of even the behavior of Westboro (although they find it distasteful) because they have the right Jesus. I have sometimes quoted great Christian thinkers (great in their eyes and ours) such as C.S. Lewis. If they did not recognize the quote and thought it to be my words or the words of an Apostle or Prophet, they would object to the content, assuming that if coming from a Mormon it is wrong. When they learn the truth of who said it the conversation turns to my or "our" misunderstanding of what Lewis or Luther had to say. In short...the fact that we are Mormons renders any thought or idea invalid. Edited September 14, 2012 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Rivers]

Technically, Mormons do believe that Jesus is eternal in the sense that he literally had no beginning. In Mormon theology, all beings are intellegence which has no beginning. This would include Jesus.

Frankly, I get really tired of these types of arguments. I don't like it when other Christians bring them up and I don't like it when Mormons do it. I think Jesus is more concerned with how we live our lives and our character than what dogma believe in,

[swfarnsworth]

So, then, it is worse for people to accuse us of not being Christian because we're not creedal (if that's the right word), or because we don't worship the "right Jesus"?

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter whether or not we are classified as Christian as long as it's understood that Christ is the central figure of our faith. Of course, that sounds like a contradiction to me because of the definition of "Christian" that I've been using, but apparently not to some non-Mormons.

I would assume that most Christians traveling to India, for example, would identify themselves as simply Christian rather than Catholic or Methodist, as the distinction would probably not be meaningful in that part of the world. The specifics are meaningful enough to me, though, that I'm not sure which term (Mormon or Christian) I would use.

[Damien the Leper]

I have found that the harder I have tried to decide and figure out what it is that I actually believe, the more I realize that I don't believe any of it at all.

I guess I'm tired of the drawn out diatribes and soap boxes of who is more right than others or what is the correct way of believing anything concerning religious practice and theology.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Valentinus

[Ahab]

Recently I was working outside in a nearby city just a few long blocks from Azua Pacific University [ An local EV College ] and I happened to be wearing one of my T-shirts with a picture of Jesus Christ on the back with a statement of "My Master" underneath the picture. An evangelical Christian approached me who I believed works nearby who saw me wearing the shirt and asked "what does that mean ?" [in reference to the " My Master" statement on my shirt]. I told him that Jesus Christ was - The LORD OF LIFE/LORD/Redeemer/Saviour/God/King and Master. I boldly told him I was a member of the Church Of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints. He immediatly told me we had a different Jesus because we do not believe he is Eternal [ He did not mention The Spirit Brother Of Lucifer or any other criticisms]. I told him our scriptures declare that He Is Eternal but that the hebrew and greek word for eternal was an indefinate period of time, a very long time and studies had been done that show this. His response was studies have been done that refute that concept. He walked away believing I was hell bound because of this one area of false doctrine. Any thoughts ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

I believe you made a bad impression when you suggested eternal doesn't mean forever. It is true that eternity is an indefinate period of time, because it doesn't end or begin, but he probably didn't make that connection and thought you meant Jesus hasn't really existed forever, which isn't what you should want him to think.

Instead, I would explain how Jesus, and we, have always existed because what we are came from our parents, and just as we have a Father, and a Father before that, Jesus does too, with no beginning or end to the number of our Fathers.

And then, if he didn't understand that, I would tell him to keep thinking about it and maybe someday he would get it.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Ahab

[DH]

Technically, Mormons do believe that Jesus is eternal in the sense that he literally had no beginning. In Mormon theology, all beings are intellegence which has no beginning. This would include Jesus.

Frankly, I get really tired of these types of arguments. I don't like it when other Christians bring them up and I don't like it when Mormons do it. I think Jesus is more concerned with how we live our lives and our character than what dogma believe in,

I agree. Jesus IS eternal, just like the rest of us. And I don't really give a hoot if others don't think we're Christian.

[Ahab]

I have found that the harder I have tried to decide and figure out what it is that I actually believe, the more I realize that I don't believe any of it at all.

I guess I'm tired of the drawn out diatribes and soap boxes of who is more right than others or what is the correct way of believing anything concerning religious practice and theology.

I suggest that you simply ask God what is true, rather than trying to decide betweeen what other people tell you or trying to figure it out on your own. Once God lets you know what is really the truth all you'll have to decide is whether or not to believe what he tells you. He's already got everything figured out.

[Damien the Leper]

I suggest that you simply ask God what is true, rather than trying to decide betweeen what other people tell you or trying to figure it out on your own. Once God lets you know what is really the truth all you'll have to decide is whether or not to believe what he tells you. He's already got everything figured out.

Therein lies the greater problem. Does God exist? If so, says who? How is this substantiated? Can this be undeniably verified in some form other than mere testimony?

I cannot pray to a being that I'm not sure even exists. Nor am I really concerned that God exists. There are bigger problems to deal with than the source of moral dilemma, spiritual conscience and consequential religious agency. IOW, I'm not concerned with salvation or exaltation. I'm concerned with relieving the burdens of the here and now that could benefit humanity.

[altersteve]

Therein lies the greater problem. Does God exist? If so, says who? How is this substantiated? Can this be undeniably verified in some form other than mere testimony?

No, it can't.

I cannot pray to a being that I'm not sure even exists. Nor am I really concerned that God exists. There are bigger problems to deal with than the source of moral dilemma, spiritual conscience and consequential religious agency. IOW, I'm not concerned with salvation or exaltation. I'm concerned with relieving the burdens of the here and now that could benefit humanity.

Except that to Latter-day Saints, God and "relieving the burdens of here and now that could benefit humanity" are the same thing: you can't have the latter without the former.

[Damien the Leper]

Except that to Latter-day Saints, God and "relieving the burdens of here and now that could benefit humanity" are the same thing: you can't have the latter without the former.

Fair enough. I'm not necessarily arguing the existence of God. LDS are entitled, just as other Christians, to believe as they wish. Perhaps I am arguing that the concept of God is no longer relevant to me.

[Ahab]

Therein lies the greater problem. Does God exist? If so, says who? How is this substantiated? Can this be undeniably verified in some form other than mere testimony?

Mere testimony? How much better can it get than for God to be talking to you while God lets you know who is God?

I cannot pray to a being that I'm not sure even exists. Nor am I really concerned that God exists.

That one's easy. The word "God" refers to the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, whoever or whatever that is.

Some kind of being has to be the most supreme being in all of existence. The fact that God exists is a simple matter of logic.

There are bigger problems to deal with than the source of moral dilemma, spiritual conscience and consequential religious agency. IOW, I'm not concerned with salvation or exaltation. I'm concerned with relieving the burdens of the here and now that could benefit humanity.

Only the gospel can save us. Or maybe you think some Republican or Democrat can do it. Sheesh. Give me a break.

[swfarnsworth]

Therein lies the greater problem. Does God exist? If so, says who? How is this substantiated? Can this be undeniably verified in some form other than mere testimony?

Questions and answers written by Joseph Smith as part of the second Lecture on Faith:

Q. What testimony have men, in the first instance, that there is a God?

A. Human testimony, and human testimony only.

Q. How do men obtain a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?

A. By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly, strengthening their faith in him, until like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they obtain a manifestation of God to themselves. [Emphasis added]

Q. Is the knowledge of the existence of God a matter of mere tradition, founded upon human testimony alone, until a person receives a manifestation of God to themselves?

A. It is.

[BCSpace]

An evangelical Christian approached me who I believed works nearby

He immediatly told me we had a different Jesus because we do not believe he is Eternal [ He did not mention The Spirit Brother Of Lucifer or any other criticisms]. I told him our scriptures declare that He Is Eternal but that the hebrew and greek word for eternal was an indefinate period of time, a very long time and studies had been done that show this. His response was studies have been done that refute that concept. He walked away believing I was hell bound because of this one area of false doctrine. Any thoughts ?.

Colossians 1:16 IIRC, lexically, here Jesus was operative in the creation of the physical universe only; everything visible and invisible in it; a part of the heavens distinct from the spiritual place where God dwells. In other words, he was not around as God when the Father first existed as God. Evangelicals look at the word "invisible" and erroneously assume this refers to the the heaven where God dwells.

Trinitarians have the same problem LDS do with an infinite past except theirs is immediate (What was before God? What brought about God? etc.) and ours is pushed back for however many generations of Gods there are.

Check out the various usages of eternal here along with the commentaries from Thayer's Lexicon:

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Note the problem that exists by assuming "eternal" can, in some cases, mean "no beginning and no end". If that is the case, then how can we possibly have eternal life (Mark 10:30) without also having had a pre-mortal existence?

In other cases (Hebrew), "eternal" as in "eternal God" means:

east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime

a) front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East

b) ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time

c) anciently, of old (adverb)

d) beginning

e) east

That is Deuteronomy 33:27

The notion that Jesus is a God subordinate to the Father could help here too and the Bible, as well as early Christian doctrine prior to the later development of the trinity heresy, does include Subordinationism.

Edited September 14, 2012 by BCSpace

[Damien the Leper]

Mere testimony? How much better can it get than for God to be talking to you while God lets you know who is God?

Or perhaps God is a product of one's psychology.

That one's easy. The word "God" refers to the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, whoever or whatever that is.

Some kind of being has to be the most supreme being in all of existence. The fact that God exists is a simple matter of logic.

Why? What logic does a supreme being offer that was not already offered by pagan deities?

Only the gospel can save us. Or maybe you think some Republican or Democrat can do it. Sheesh. Give me a break.

If you'll notice my avatar, I don't in any way endorse the Republicans or the Democrats. Personally, I would like to see both parties annihilated. They do more harm than good.

[Damien the Leper]

Questions and answers written by Joseph Smith as part of the second Lecture on Faith:

This is hearsay. Can we not do better than so-and-so says God said so?

[Ahab]

Colossians 1:16 IIRC, lexically, here Jesus was operative in the creation of the physical universe only; everything visible and invisible in it; a part of the heavens distinct from the spiritual place where God dwells.

Spiritual place? You do realize every place is filled with matter and all matter is composed of physical elements, don't you?

In other words, he was not around as God when the Father first existed as God.

Yes he was, as part of his parents, just as every child is part of the parents they come from.

Evangelicals look at the word "invisible" and erroneously assume this refers to the the heaven where God dwells.

Trinitarians have the same problem LDS do with an infinite past except theirs is immediate (what was before God, what brought about God, etc.) and ours is pushed back for however many generations of Gods there are.

Heh, you're not thinking there is some point when the "first" one began, are you?

There is no "first" God, generally speaking. God is eternal, and I'm pretty sure every other kind of being is too.

The notion that Jesus is a God subordinate to the Father could help here too and the Bible, as well as early Christian doctrine prior to the later development of the trinity heresy, does include Subordinationism.

Rather than saying a God is subordinate to another God, though, it would be more proper to say that one person who is God is subordinate to another person who is God. There is only one God, because there is only one kind of being which is the most supreme being in all of existence.

[RobertAC]

. . . He immediatly told me we had a different Jesus. . . .

Yeah, that Jesus is trouble. Doesn't pick up after himself. Gets out of doing the dishes, even when asked to do them a half-a-dozen times. Always late for meetings.

[Ahab]

Or perhaps God is a product of one's psychology.

No, the other way around. Phychology.is a product of God, involving the scientific study of mental functions and behaviors.

Why? What logic does a supreme being offer that was not already offered by pagan deities?

My point was that by using logic you can see that among all beings there is one that has to be the most supreme being.

The glory of God is intelligence, which means God is the most intelligent of all beings. No other being is as glorious.

If you'll notice my avatar, I don't in any way endorse the Republicans or the Democrats. Personally, I would like to see both parties annihilated. They do more harm than good.

Well somebody has to save us, if we're ever going to be saved. Who do you think is up to the job?

[Ahab]

This is hearsay. Can we not do better than so-and-so says God said so?

Yes, we can do better than that. We can ask God and hear what he says. Who knows, some of us may already agree with him.

[teddyaware]

This thread will give me a chance to say something that's been on my mind:

This is a day when many Evangelical Christians feel put upon and even persecuted by the progressive secularists and others of similar ilk in our society. The anti-Evangelical hostility exhibited by these secularists and big-government idolitors is typified by the folowing quote from an article on Nora Ephron found at godfatherploitics.com...

'At the 2006 Aspen Institute panel discussion on “Television, Cinema and American Values,” Ephron was asked if she knew any evangelical Christians and/or Bush supporters, and if she did not then how does she know what she knows about “those kind of folks.” Her response was, simply, “No, and I’m not ashamed to admit it." She had disdain for millions of people with whom she had no knowledge. She admitted that she did not know a single evangelical Christian and was proud of that fact.'

So our Evangelical friends read pieces like this and plaintively lament, "How can these awful people hold these attitudes against us? Don't they know we worship a God who is the embodiment of perfect love? How can this Nora Ephron person actually boast and seem so proud of the fact that she doesn't even know a single Evangelical Christian?"

Well, if our born again brothers and sisters would stop and wax introspective for a few moments, they might learn the reason why they are so despised and derided: At least in part, this antipathy exists because the seculaists think Evangelicals believe in a God who is apparently unconcerned with the fact that he's going to send the majority of his human creation into and endless hell, where those so consigned will be compelled to endure endless sufferings of such horrific torment that the human mind cannot even conceive of the degree and extent of this never-ending spiritual, mental and physical agony. People like Nora Ephron have a sterotypical caricture of Christians affixed in their minds -- they think they worship a being who makes Hitler, Stalin and Mao look like a trio of amateurs.

Unfortuately, because of ignorance, we Latter Day Saints are thrown into the mix.

Edited September 14, 2012 by teddyaware

[BCSpace]

Spiritual place? You do realize every place is filled with matter and all matter is composed of physical elements, don't you?

Indeed. But recall that LDS differentiate between say the mortal body and the spirtual resurrected body. The Greeks had words to convey the same; one for the heaven describing the physical universe and one for the place where God dwells.

Heh, you're not thinking there is some point when the "first" one began, are you?

There always is. My own hypothesis is that the Gods were once mortal creatures who ultimately evolved to Divinity and now have discoovered and more efficient way for Theosis.

There is no "first" God, generally speaking. God is eternal, and I'm pretty sure every other kind of being is too.

LDS doctrine is that God was once a mortal man on another planet (Gospel Principles ch 47). This precludes him from being the first and only God unless you like my hypothesis. But that would not leave time enough for evolution......