Bill Clinton Just Said He "Almost Became A Mormon."

[Mark Beesley]

So, your point is that such a criticism of President Clinton, while it may have merit in another context, is irrelevant and a red herring in the context of this discussion (since he likely hadn't engaged in any infidelity to that point in his life)? OK. That's probably true. Point taken.

Thank you. Yes, kinda . . . except one thing: I don't think there is ever any merit to criticizing another person because of personal foibles.

[Robert F. Smith]

I am actually impressed he remembers that much after several decades.

Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. Also, not for nothing he was well known as a policy wonk. Got to have a good memory to do all that.

[Robert F. Smith]

Does anyone else really think the law of chastity might also have had something to do with it? ;-)

That's not likely the problem. When he was a young man, free love was all the rage. Had he adopted the LDS religion, he might very well have put a lid on any sexual escapades. The real question is whether conversion would have caused him to ignore Hilary and to marry a nice Mormon girl. From that one would also have to ask whether the non-existence of such a power couple would have prevented his rise to the Arkansas governership or the Presidency of the USA.

[Kenngo1969]

Thank you. Yes, kinda . . . except one thing: I don't think there is ever any merit to criticizing another person because of personal foibles.

I guess we'll simply have to disagree on what constitutes a mere personal foible versus what constitutes a more serious character flaw. President Clinton, for all of his faults, was much more adept at the business of governing than the White House's current occupant. There's an old Chinese proverb that says, "A wise man knows everything, a shrewd man knows everybody." President Obama is plenty wise, while President Clinton was plenty shrewd.

[KevinG]

Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. Also, not for nothing he was well known as a policy wonk. Got to have a good memory to do all that.

I knew a woman who worked as a speech writer for him when he was Governor of Arkansas. She said she could hand him a paper with a dozen bullet points at the bottom of an escalator and by the time he got to the top they were memorized. Amazing!

The couple of speeches I wrote for my Governor were put on an electronic reader and sometimes referred to. Thank goodness he was a very good extemporaneous speaker.

[BCSpace]

"Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."

-Agrippa

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mote/beam

To you and Mark remember this next time Glenn Beck is brought up.

[Mark Beesley]

To you and Mark remember this next time Glenn Beck is brought up.

Have I ever made a comment about Beck's personal failings?

[theplains]

Clearly he doesnt understand it completely. Because sealings and work for the dead fix the problem. dont they?

Not really. Here is a simple example. Suppose a wife and husband are sealed and they have a son and a daughter.

• The husband does not endure to the end and winds up leaving the LDS Church. He is cast into outer darkness.
  
• The wife endures to the end but fails to reach exaltation, so she ends up alone in the celestial kingdom.
  
• The son is not good enough so he ends up in the terrestrial kingdom.
  
• The daughter is worse and she ends up in the telestial kingdom.
  

The forever family? Yes ... but forever living apart.

Regards,

Jim

[Duncan]

I have a true but funny story about Bill Clinton and the Church that happened to me personally but I am waiting on some guests so I will have to share at a later time!

[Calm]

Not really. Here is a simple example. Suppose a wife and husband are sealed and they have a son and a daughter.

• The husband does not endure to the end and winds up leaving the LDS Church. He is cast into outer darkness.
  
• The wife endures to the end but fails to reach exaltation, so she ends up alone in the celestial kingdom.
  
• The son is not good enough so he ends up in the terrestrial kingdom.
  
• The daughter is worse and she ends up in the telestial kingdom.
  

The forever family? Yes ... but forever living apart.

Regards,

Jim

Not an accurate description of what would happen according to LDS belief.

Unless the husband managed somehow to become a son of perdition...and one has to be pretty much a prophet to have done that, probably having seen the Lord such as the Brother of Jared had done (who did not become a SOP, just using him as an example of a witness of Christ), he wasn't heading to Outer Darkness.

And we don't know what the kingdoms actually may be. All may be in the same location and just not experiencing the same awareness level of God is one possibility. They may associate with each other as much as they want even if they do not function as an exalted family.

Plains, I know you are sincere, but you keep making major mistakes with what LDS believe so you really need to stop telling us what we believe. At least make stuff like the above into a question as in "is this scenario accurate" rather than making such errors as if they were statement of facts.

Read Hebrews 6:4–6; Alma 24:30; 39:6; Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–38 and the student manual commentary for Hebrews 6:4–6, “What Must People Do in Order to ‘Crucify to Themselves the Son of God Afresh, and Put Him to an Open Shame’?” (p. 385). According to Matthew 12:31, how serious is the sin described in Hebrews 6:4–6? Write what a person must do to become a son of perdition and what the eventual punishment will be.

http://www.lds.org/manual/institute/independent-study/new-testament/212/lesson9?lang=eng&query=%22son+of+perdition%22

[Calm]

I have a true but funny story about Bill Clinton and the Church that happened to me personally but I am waiting on some guests so I will have to share at a later time!

Have fun tonight....

[Calm]

Also for those curious and want the real scoop on Outer Darkness:

http://www.lds.org/e...estion?lang=eng

The other is the never-ending state of the wicked for whom there is no mercy because they, “like unto the son of perdition” (3 Ne. 29:7; John 17:12), have rejected the mercy of Christ and would sell him “for silver and for gold, and for that which moth doth corrupt.” (3 Ne. 27:32.) These are they, called perdition and the sons of perdition, who come out “in open rebellion against God” and “listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness. …

“Therefore [their] final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.” (Mosiah 2:37, 39; see also 2 Pet. 3:7; Rev. 20:13–15; D&C 76:31–46.)....

here is a fourth destination, however, for those “comparatively few” who cannot abide even a telestial glory. The Lord explains that the destiny of the sons of perdition is a kingdom without glory (see D&C 88:24), and “the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows,” only those “ordained unto this condemnation” (seeD&C 76:43–49). These are they who “cannot repent.” They “sin against the Holy Ghost” and “put Christ to open shame.” (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 1:47–49.)

“All who partake of this, the greatest of sins, sell themselves as did Cain to Lucifer. They learn to hate the truth with an eternal hatred, and they learn to love wickedness. They reach a condition where they cannot repent. The spirit of murder fills their hearts and they would, if they had the power, crucify our Lord again, which they virtually do by fighting his work and seeking to destroy it and his prophets. …

“Before a man can sink to this bitterness of soul, he must first know and understand the truth with a clearness of vision wherein there is no doubt. The Change of heart does not come all at once, but is due to transgression in some form, which continues to lurk in the soul without repentance, until the Holy Ghost withdraws, and then that man is left to spiritual darkness. Sin begets sin; the darkness grows until the love of truth turns to hatred, and the love of God is overcome by the wicked desire to destroy all that is just and true. In this way Christ is put to open shame, and blasphemy exalted.

“How fortunate it is that in the mercy of God there will be comparatively few who will partake of this awful misery and eternal darkness.” (Ibid, p. 49.)

Thus, hell has an end for all consigned to it except the sons of perdition. They alone remain in a hell which has no end.

The above in no way describes the typical "leaving the LDS Church" individual or even apostate. Cain, who listened to Satan and murdered his brother after he walked with God, is the only SoP that has been identified. Even Judas might not be (did he kill himself out of despair or sorrow and regret for what he had done?)

[Duncan]

Have fun tonight....

well, I had 5 elders here playing lego! it was supposed to be a meet and greet the new elder in our ward and behold and lo 5 of them showed up!

[Calm]

Lego! My kind of party. Our walk in closet in our spare room is wall to wall legos. October is usually free shipping month from lego dot com so I get enough to stash under my bed for the next year.

[Sevenbak]

It sounds to me like he was pretty impressed with the missionaries and doesn't have anything against Mormons. He disagrees with the idea of only members of one church being allowed in the highest degrees of glory. That is a common criticism of religions that believe that sort of thing, and I have no reason to believe Clinton doesn't believe what he said. So why do you find it disingenuous? I don't see it.

And how is saying that he was impressed by the missionaries, but disagreed with their theology, politically ill-advised or provocative?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you just don't like Clinton, and would feel this way about anything he said at all.

No. Sure he cheated on Hilary later in his life, and that was wrong, but I don't see the connection to Mormonism or this interview.

I disagree. Bill Clinton knew exactly what he was doing, at a time when Evangelicals are starting to coalesce around Romney. He's trying to stop that with his casual statement about baptists and Mormons. Bill just didn't drop that one out of the blue. He is a major surrogate for Obama right now, has been ever since the convention.

I believe you give him far less "credit" than he deserves.

[Calm]

I do not doubt that Clinton was aware of the impact his comments might have, but that doesn't necessarily mean that isn't exactly the reason why he didn't join and if so, there is nothing wrong with him saying it (I hope I didn't give that impression before, I would just hope that better info was also made available).

Whether it was a manipulative moment in my view would depend on why he mentioned it. Huckabee's 'question' "don't they believe Satan was Jesus' brother" or whatever he said was an afterthought, talking about his reason why he didn't join the Mormons in a comment about a missionary encounter is not. Was it in response to a question the interviewer asked along the lines of 'what has been your experiences with Mormons' or did he more or less bring it up 'out of the blue'? We probably don't have the full content of the interview so I don't see how we can fairly judge. And of course if he was lying about the experience in the first place that would be definitely inappropriate, though I see no reason to suppose that, just mentioning it to cover all the bases.

[theplains]

Not an accurate description of what would happen according to LDS belief.

My hypothetical scenario is one where the "forever family" is "forever separate". Unless you believe God

would put the entire family in the same kingdom irregardless of the faithfulness of all of its members while

they lived on earth.

From what I understand of LDS theology, the temple ordinances are really beneficial for those who will

inherit exaltation and eternal increase in the highest division of the celestial kingdom.

I found this:

"Temple ordinances are not "mere signs." They are channels of the Spirit of God that enable one to be

born of God in the fullest sense and to receive all the covenants and blessings of Jesus Christ. The

performing of earthly ordinances by proxy for those who have died is as efficacious and vitalizing as if

the deceased person had done them. That person, in turn, is free to accept or reject the ordinances

in the spirit world" (http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Salvation_of_the_Dead)

If I have mistated anything, please provide me with source material to point me in the right direction.

Thanks,

Jim

[Tacenda]

My hypothetical scenario is one where the "forever family" is "forever separate". Unless you believe God

would put the entire family in the same kingdom irregardless of the faithfulness of all of its members while

they lived on earth.

From what I understand of LDS theology, the temple ordinances are really beneficial for those who will

inherit exaltation and eternal increase in the highest division of the celestial kingdom.

I found this:

"Temple ordinances are not "mere signs." They are channels of the Spirit of God that enable one to be

born of God in the fullest sense and to receive all the covenants and blessings of Jesus Christ. The

performing of earthly ordinances by proxy for those who have died is as efficacious and vitalizing as if

the deceased person had done them. That person, in turn, is free to accept or reject the ordinances

in the spirit world" (http://eom.byu.edu/i...ion_of_the_Dead)

If I have mistated anything, please provide me with source material to point me in the right direction.

Thanks,

Jim

I've had trouble with seeing how the LDS say how exciting it is that we'll be a forever family, when in actuality, not everyone would be able to acheive that ideal. Unlike the other Christians that usually don't separate the families. As long as they are bornagain and come unto Christ they're in it together. So not the degrees like the LDS. For instance as it sits right now, if I'm a believing LDS then only my sister and I out of 6 siblings will be together. Also, it makes me wonder too, what if we are to create worlds without end how are we together then?

[Sky]

Regardless of political ideology, I personally like Bill Clinton and don't believe any member of the Church should take offense in what he said. His comments seemed light hearted and harmless. He doesn't hate the Church or its people.

[thesometimesaint]

theplains, Tacenda:

There is no free ride to the Celestial Kingdom. Everyone will pay to the last Farthing for any unrepented of sin.

Christ has paid the price for our repented of sins. The Sealing cements those bonds, but it is not a free ride.

[cdowis]

(answer).....

Regardless of political ideology, I personally like Bill Clinton and don't believe any member of the Church should take offense in what he said. His comments seemed light hearted and harmless.

I assume he was moving his lips. (a private joke)

[theplains]

There is no free ride to the Celestial Kingdom. Everyone will pay to the last Farthing for any unrepented of sin.

How will those who have died and are destined for the celestial kingdom pay? Is there a Mormon equivalent to

purgatory?

Thanks,

Jim

[Calm]

He said "unrepented sin". Those bound for the CK will have repented and accepted the Atonement fully.