How Would You Understand This?

[inquiringmind]

Suppose you were dreaming of the Celestial Kingdom.

You feel the joy and peace, you're basking in it's beauty, and then you see the words "you're not gonna make it" before you wake up.

How disturbed would you be?

How would you understand it?

If the joyful and peaceful feelings were from God, could He actually be telling you that you're not gonna make it?

That there's no sense trying?

If that disturbing message was from the devil, where did the joyful and peaceful feelings come from?

Would you conclude that dreams are just subconscious wishes and fears, there probably is no God, and give up on all religion all together?

[happy]

I would be glad it was just a dream and move on.

[inquiringmind]

I would be glad it was just a dream and move on.

But I thought Mormons believed that powerful positive feelings of joy and peace always came directly from God, feelings of doubt and despair came from the devil, and dreams were more than "just dreams."

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here (and I know I've asked questions like this before), but I'm still thinking of something I found very disturbing the other morning.

I would like more thoughts on how to understand this and move on.

How can you tell when a dream is just a dream, and what do you mean by "just a dream"?

[Jude2]

I would be glad it was just a dream and move on.

dittos

[inquiringmind]

But how would you know it was just a dream?

How would you know that God wasn't telling you that you're not gonna make it?

Edited August 26, 2012 by inquiringmind

[happy]

I don't believe God makes proclamations like that. Most of them are "do this or else", not "oh, by the way, you aren't making it".

[inquiringmind]

I don't believe God makes proclamations like that. Most of them are "do this or else", not "oh, by the way, you aren't making it".

Thank you.

I was just reading this on Wikipedia.

Subjects' vividly recalled dreams mostly occur during REM sleep

http://en.wikipedia...._movement_sleep

If one human being can tell when another human being is having a dream he's gonna remember (by looking at his eye movement), maybe the devil can tell when to really hit us with something disturbing.

Edited August 26, 2012 by inquiringmind

[William James]

Neither Mormons nor any other religious group has any scientific method for distinguishing between uninspired dreams and dreams influenced by supernatural forces. If this dream happened to me as you described it, I would probably not be concerned and would move on. If I were inclined to believe that the dream was a consequence of the supernatural, there is more than one reasonable interpretation that could be made of it- it could be merely a warning, or it could be a glimpse of your future. Unlike many Mormons, I don't believe in the absolute omniscience of God, and consequently don't believe that God knows who ultimately will or will not be "saved," unless, of course, you accept (as I tend to) that ultimately all will be "saved," and it is merely a question of how rapidly each soul progresses and learns during eternity.

[Freedom]

But how would you know it was just a dream?

How would you know that God wasn't telling you that you're not gonna make it?

God is a god of love, not sorrow. Would a loving parent say to a child who is trying to walk 'your not going to make it' or would they say to a wayward teenager 'your not going to make it'. Unless you are evil, I do not see God giving such a un-motivational message.

[TAO]

Suppose you were dreaming of the Celestial Kingdom.

You feel the joy and peace, you're basking in it's beauty, and then you see the words "you're not gonna make it" before you wake up.

How disturbed would you be?

How would you understand it?

If the joyful and peaceful feelings were from God, could He actually be telling you that you're not gonna make it?

That there's no sense trying?

If that disturbing message was from the devil, where did the joyful and peaceful feelings come from?

Would you conclude that dreams are just subconscious wishes and fears, there probably is no God, and give up on all religion all together?

I can't really tell how I'd react. I cannot truly feel what you feel, so I can't really tell you there.

But let me ask you this, did it seem like it came from God or the Devil? Have you prayed about it afterwards? Are you sure about your answer? Those are the things I would think about. Remember, God won't let Satan tempt you more than you are able... so I think there should be some way open to you so that you are able to tell whether you should follow the dream or not at all. You can find it.

But I thought Mormons believed that powerful positive feelings of joy and peace always came directly from God, feelings of doubt and despair came from the devil, and dreams were more than "just dreams."

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here (and I know I've asked questions like this before), but I'm still thinking of something I found very disturbing the other morning.

I would like more thoughts on how to understand this and move on.

How can you tell when a dream is just a dream, and what do you mean by "just a dream"?

Well kinda. At least in my experience, the devil can make you feel good, but there is a cloying corruptness about it... it's different than the way God does things. In addition, I have found that thinking of God allows me to think of other good things, whereas the devil tries to keep my thoughts where I know they shouldn't be. You can sort of tell, I guess, based on the behavior of those thoughts.

Some things are just a dream, in the sense that we interpret them to mean more, incorrectly. But other things aren't just a dream. So go to God with the question, and ask him whether you should trust the dream, or whether you should not. Don't be discouraged, you can do it.

[Storm Rider]

Suppose you were dreaming of the Celestial Kingdom.

You feel the joy and peace, you're basking in it's beauty, and then you see the words "you're not gonna make it" before you wake up.

How disturbed would you be?

How would you understand it?

If the joyful and peaceful feelings were from God, could He actually be telling you that you're not gonna make it?

That there's no sense trying?

If that disturbing message was from the devil, where did the joyful and peaceful feelings come from?

Would you conclude that dreams are just subconscious wishes and fears, there probably is no God, and give up on all religion all together?

You always come up with interesting sets of questions. It is as if you are always searching, but never willing to come to a conclusion; will you have faith or not. There is a difference between faith and superstition. Superstition often plays on the fears of mankind: death, accidents, bad luck, etc. It is true that we can deceive ourselves by placing meaning in things that have no meaning. We can also be deceived by evil spirits; those minions of the evil one that seek to destroy our faith in God and to revel in our earthly passions, which weakens our spirits.

There are dreams that come from God and there are dreams that are just dreams. When you have a dream that comes to you from God you will know it; there will not be any doubt in you remind that God is communicating with you.

You may be trying to make life, this mortal existence, a dichotomy of black and white. In a sense this is accurate, at the end of the day it is black and white. We either choose to follow God or not. However, I think that in between there is much that is grey. God is doing all he can to help us return to him without violating our free agency. For some it may look as if a person is moving away from God when in reality the person is just not taking big steps toward God. Little steps are good as long as we keep moving toward God and doing what is right.

Finally, you have to understand that each child of God can make it to the Celestial Kingdom because Jesus is our perfection. He paid the price and through him we are redeemed of all things. It is our responsibility to choose to follow or not. If you will not have faith you will not make it. The choice is ours to make.

[Glenn101]

Many if not most of our dreams come from our subconscious. We mostly are unaware of what has triggered them. I myself have had dreams that started off beautifuly, but evolved into a nightmares. I don't think that they were inspired by the Lord or altered by Satan, but were a product of my own insecurities.

However, I found that bad dreams can be "corrected". My wife used to have nightmares about her former husband. She would be dreaming happily about her current state (with which she seems pretty content) but then her former husband would enter the dream and shatter that happiness. Our therapist outlined how she could convince herself that all was going to turn out right and that her former husband was "going to get his", then go back to sleep with that in mind. It usually worked, sometimes with pretty funny results, in the dream, that is.

Glenn

[CV75]

Suppose you were dreaming of the Celestial Kingdom.

You feel the joy and peace, you're basking in it's beauty, and then you see the words "you're not gonna make it" before you wake up.

How disturbed would you be? How would you understand it? If the joyful and peaceful feelings were from God, could He actually be telling you that you're not gonna make it? That there's no sense trying? If that disturbing message was from the devil, where did the joyful and peaceful feelings come from? Would you conclude that dreams are just subconscious wishes and fears, there probably is no God, and give up on all religion all together?

I very, very often feel its joy, peace, and beauty (in terms of place, relationships, gifts and belssings in my life, and other aspects) and the assurance than I'm going to "make it" when I am asleep, waking, and awake. The experience transcends the need for any of thse questions, but a) I am not disturbed; b) my understanding is personal but I do find I keep my covenenants better each day that goes by; c) there's no "if" about the source of these feelings; d) some experiences, whether I am awake, awaking or sleeping are "just subconscious wishes and fears" and some are not, but this does not serve as an indicator to me about God's probability of being or as a motivator to "give up religion altogether."

[why me]

But I thought Mormons believed that powerful positive feelings of joy and peace always came directly from God, feelings of doubt and despair came from the devil, and dreams were more than "just dreams."

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here (and I know I've asked questions like this before), but I'm still thinking of something I found very disturbing the other morning.

I would like more thoughts on how to understand this and move on.

How can you tell when a dream is just a dream, and what do you mean by "just a dream"?

Not good to read dreams. There are 'professionals' who do this to no avail. usually, dreams can be a part of our psyche---our own fears. If this dream troubles you, you need to focus on what is troubling for you. Is there the possibility that your sub-conscience may be a reflection of your real worries? .

[rpn]

I'd tell my sub-conscious to quit being stupid. What you are describing, without the dream element, is what lots of LDS member think or say to themselves or about others. Truth is, in most cases they are completely misunderstanding the atonement and their obligations under it to simply do their personal best, and make their best better tomorrow than it is today, repenting quickly. The nagging feeling of discouragement can be Satan. It can also be our stupid programming when we haven't learned to think healthy. God would not be saying that because (a) we get the whole of our lives to make the right choices and be what we need be, so it would be a lie given in a dream when you aren't dead; and (b) He PLANNED for us all to succeed, not fail.

[moonlight12]

Suppose you were dreaming of the Celestial Kingdom.

You feel the joy and peace, you're basking in it's beauty, and then you see the words "you're not gonna make it" before you wake up.

How disturbed would you be?

How would you understand it?

If the joyful and peaceful feelings were from God, could He actually be telling you that you're not gonna make it?

That there's no sense trying?

If that disturbing message was from the devil, where did the joyful and peaceful feelings come from?

Would you conclude that dreams are just subconscious wishes and fears, there probably is no God, and give up on all religion all together?

Think of happy or satisfying dreams you have had. Say, for example, you dreamed you inherited $20,000 from a long-lost uncle. I doubt you would consider such a dream of divine origin. Most dreams are simply random excursions into what are typically improbabilities--excursions that occur when the rational mind is at rest.

As an accurate indicator of your post-mortal destination, your dream, in my opinion, means nothing. Don't lose any sleep over it.

[ERayR]

I would probably put it right in there with the dream I had of rolling under a log to escape a bear and rolled out of bed.

[wenglund]

Neither Mormons nor any other religious group has any scientific method for distinguishing between uninspired dreams and dreams influenced by supernatural forces.

That is because dreams, like most internal occurrence (like emotions, pain, etc.), don't lend themselves to direct scientific testing. Science can only test what it can observe, and it can't directly observe dreams. It can only observe general electro-chemical activity in the brain.

This doesn't mean that dreams, like other spiritual or internal experiences, can't be tested at all to distinguish between natural and supernatural. They can. Most of us have had natural dreams, and we can use those natural dreams to compare and contrast against supernatural dreams, just as we compare and contrast our dreams with experiences we have while we are awake so as to distinguish the difference. We don't need science to tell the difference between sleep experiences and awake experiences, nor do we need it to distinguish between natural and spiritual--some people's worship of science notwithstanding.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[William James]

That is because dreams, like most internal occurrence (like emotions, pain, etc.), don't lend themselves to direct scientific testing. Science can only test what it can observe, and it can't directly observe dreams. It can only observe general electro-chemical activity in the brain.

This doesn't mean that dreams, like other spiritual or internal experiences, can't be tested at all to distinguish between natural and supernatural. They can. Most of us have had natural dreams, and we can use those natural dreams to compare and contrast against supernatural dreams, just as we compare and contrast our dreams with experiences we have while we are awake so as to distinguish the difference. We don't need science to tell the difference between sleep experiences and awake experiences, nor do we need it to distinguish between natural and spiritual--some people's worship of science notwithstanding.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade:

How, if at all, in your opinion, can one know for certain whether a dream results from God's supernatural intervention? Thanks.

[BCSpace]

It does not seem that God gives such dreams to those with no hope. For example, the dreams of the seven good ears of corn and the seven bad, the seven fat oxen and the seven emaciated ones. There is a hopeful scenario there. In addition, there is Jeremiah 18:1-10.

[Libs]

Suppose you were dreaming of the Celestial Kingdom.

You feel the joy and peace, you're basking in it's beauty, and then you see the words "you're not gonna make it" before you wake up.

How disturbed would you be?

How would you understand it?

If the joyful and peaceful feelings were from God, could He actually be telling you that you're not gonna make it?

That there's no sense trying?

If that disturbing message was from the devil, where did the joyful and peaceful feelings come from?

Would you conclude that dreams are just subconscious wishes and fears, there probably is no God, and give up on all religion all together?

I would likely understand it as a fear that I need to work through. My own fear of failure....not given from God.

[wenglund]

Wade:

How, if at all, in your opinion, can one know for certain whether a dream results from God's supernatural intervention? Thanks.

I don't expect to know "for certain" until the vail is lifted and I no longer see as if through a glass darkly, but face to face. Rather, my expectation in spiritual matters during mortality, as with much of mortal life (which is subjective), is increased confidence and growth in faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Damien the Leper]

Meh...terrestrial sounds more fun anyway. Telestial sounds like too much fun. I don't know if I can party that hard with Jesus.

[rameumptom]

Compare the dream to what the scriptures teach. The Lord invites all to come unto him. John 3:16 is a perfect scripture to understand that God would not discourage a person. At best, IF it were his voice, it is his way of saying you have some things to work on before you will be holy enough to enter.

Another thought, It may be that the Lord showed you the Celestial Kingdom, but you told yourself that you aren't going to make it!

[KevinG]

Given the Savior sacrificed His life for all mankind (including you) I'd dismiss the "you won't make it" comment as the adversary trying to discourage you or perhaps your own fears. Approach Father in Heaven in your prayers and I'm sure you will get a different answer.