How Wrong Will God Let General Authorities Be?

[bu11fr0g]

The toughest issue for me to crack right now is how wrong will God let the prophet/apostle/general authorities/correlation be?

What contexts will he allow them to be wrong in?

Why?

It is a very precarious position to ask a new member (let alone an old one) to rely on the spirit more than on what someone widely recognized for their spiritual stature and understanding is saying.

Yet, a member of the first presidency speaking in general conference is obviously not an indicator that it is going to be correct (see http://archive.org/stream/conferencereport1968sa#page/n109/mode/2up, click on the page to move through the talk) .

but what about a prophet's interpretation of what God told him?

or a prophet (member of quorum of 12) speaking in general conference?

or a proclamation?

or an introduction to the Book of Mormon?

or a lesson manual?

or part of the temple ceremony?

or a calling from a local leader?

what things are we obliged to accept without personal spiritual confirmation or more especially when we aren't sure of our own spiritual confirmation?

Edited June 2, 2012 by bu11fr0g

[mfbukowski]

It is a very precarious position to ask a new member (let alone an old one) to rely on the spirit more than on what someone widely recognized for their spiritual stature and understanding is saying.

Why?

Why would you think "stature" among men means anything? It doesn't. Listen to God.

Without a testimony of the gospel, there is no reason to be a member. The missionaries don't baptize people without a testimony- they would be out of the church faster than they came in.

This is not a philosophical association- this is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sorry if that was too direct- but it is the truth.

[Lightbearer]

what things are we obliged to accept without personal spiritual confirmation or more especially when we aren't sure of our own spiritual confirmation?

Herein is the problem as I see it. Unless a person is guided by the Holy Ghost they cannot stand. We cannot live off "borrowed light" forever, we must put oil in our own lamps and gain a testimony for ourselves so that when a prophet or leader speaks we can say Amen and mean it. The Lord gave this criterion:

"Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 21:4 - 6)

I do not think it necessary to second guess the prophet or the Lord, he has also stated the following:

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty." (Sixty–first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.) (Doctrine and Covenants | Official Declaration 1:11)

As long as we follow the First Presidency and the Twelve and placing ourselves in a position so that we will be in tune with the gift of the Holy Ghost, we will not have to wonder or question we can know. There is no "blind obedience" here, if we will keep our spiritual eyes open.

[mfbukowski]

I do not think it necessary to second guess the prophet or the Lord, he has also stated the following:

Which doesn't matter if he was not a prophet, and the only way you can know that is by the spirit.

As long as we follow the First Presidency and the Twelve and placing ourselves in a position so that we will be in tune with the gift of the Holy Ghost, we will not have to wonder or question we can know. There is no "blind obedience" here, if we will keep our spiritual eyes open.

Yep.

OK- that's about all I have to say about it.

[Storm Rider]

The toughest issue for me to crack right now is how wrong will God let the prophet/apostle/general authorities/correlation be?

What contexts will he allow them to be wrong in?

Why?

It is a very precarious position to ask a new member (let alone an old one) to rely on the spirit more than on what someone widely recognized for their spiritual stature and understanding is saying.

Yet, a member of the first presidency speaking in general conference is obviously not an indicator that it is going to be correct (see http://archive.org/s...e/n109/mode/2up, click on the page to move through the talk) .

but what about a prophet's interpretation of what God told him?

or a prophet (member of quorum of 12) speaking in general conference?

or a proclamation?

or an introduction to the Book of Mormon?

or a lesson manual?

or part of the temple ceremony?

or a calling from a local leader?

what things are we obliged to accept without personal spiritual confirmation or more especially when we aren't sure of our own spiritual confirmation?

For me I always return to the New Testament when Jesus asked Peter, "whom say ye that I am?" (Matt 16:15-18) Upon Peter stating that he was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Christ answered him and said, "Blessed are thou Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood have not revealed it unto thee, but my father, which is heaven." This pure example of the importance and value of gaining a spiritual witness is vital in the life of a disciple of Jesus the Christ. He then goes on to say that this rock, that of personal revelation, is what his Church will be built upon and when it is built upon this foundation, the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the body of believers that have united under proper authority, they function only upon the keys of the priesthood, and their ability to function is built upon this rock; that each member will govern her/his life upon the principle of gaining a personal witness.

It is true that some will live their lives leaning upon the testimony of others, the all disciples will depend upon gaining a personal witness, a personal relationship, with the Father. It is through this relationship that we come to know the Son (and vice-versa) and it is all made possible through the power and direction of the Holy Spirit.

Will men err? Yes, as long as they are mortal. Will men of God err? Yes, as long as they are mortal. Will prophets, apostles, and preists err? Yes, as long as they are mortal. Will men and women speculate upon the mysteries of Heaven? Yes, as long as they seek to understand the Kingdom of God. Does speculating lead to a deeper understanding of God? Yes, as long as the speculation does not end until the Spirit confirms truth has been obtained.

What is the purpose of a prophet and apostle? To lead, guide, preside, and maintain the keys of the Kingdom. Are they men of God? Yes, but they are mortal and will continue to err. Are they the most spiritual men upon the earth? No, they are just men who have been called to hold the keys of the Kingdom; to preside, guide, and lead.

We will stand at the last days (our own last days) upon our witness of Christ and the very gates of hell will not be able to conquer us. Why? Because we are enrobed in the Holy Spirit and our knowledge is build upon pure truth.

[mbh26]

I like the quote President Monson always used to use. "Above all things, to thine own self be true."

[DBMormon]

Why would you think "stature" among men means anything? It doesn't. Listen to God.

MfBukowski - you can't say on one hand you are free to go by the spirit on what you follow and don't follow and then on the other say that whether by my voice or the voice of my servant it is the same and also from Pres. Benson 14 fundamentals

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Wilford Woodruff stated:

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

[DBMormon]

My answer to the OP is this. God will not allow the church leadership to lose it's authority, keys, or take us away from the principles and ordinances of the gospel. Anything outside that we are left to some revelation, some inspiration, some good (advice, theology, doctrine), and some well thought out well intended bad (advice, theology, doctrine).

Elder Holland whom I adore and respect a 1000 fold said this referring to bad (advice, theology, doctrine) regarding the race issue.

One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. ... I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. ... They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong. ...

It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don't know, and, [as] with many religious matters, whatever was being done was done on the basis of faith at that time. But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. ... At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed. I think, to the extent that I know anything about it, as one of the newer and younger ones to come along, ... we simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place.

Edited June 2, 2012 by reelmormon

[Anijen]

My answer to the OP is this. God will not allow the church leadership to lose it's authority, keys, or take us away from the principles and ordinances of the gospel.

He allowed it once before. Although he has promised it would not happen again as a whole, he will continue to let individuals lose their authority, keys, etc as they sin and not repent.

[Deborah]

The toughest issue for me to crack right now is how wrong will God let the prophet/apostle/general authorities/correlation be?

What contexts will he allow them to be wrong in?

Why?

First of all one must understand the purpose of a prophet, which is stated from LDS.org as:

Like the prophets of old, prophets today testify of Jesus Christ and teach His gospel. They make known God's will and true character. They speak boldly and clearly, denouncing sin and warning of its consequences. At times, they may be inspired to prophesy of future events for our benefit.

If one understands this is the purpose of prophets, and that everything else they say is to help bring about these things, based often on their own experience and inspiration, then what does it matter if something isn't quite "right" to what we later discover by gaining greater knowledge. Prophets do not have everything revelaed. They are often given the doctrine or principle and then expected to find a way to implement it, often by trial and error. An early example is how sealings were done in the church, without regard to relationships or with no witnesses or recording of such events. They of course learned the importance of such things later.

We have much more secular knowledge now than ever before, and that even includes finding lost manuscripts or discovering artifacts that explain history better. This aids us in our spiritual study and makes the scriptures more complete. We are always learning and the fact that we are is evidenced in how some of the ways we teach things change. It does not change the basics of the gospel as indicated above, and that is what matters.

[SamIam]

The toughest issue for me to crack right now is how wrong will God let the prophet/apostle/general authorities/correlation be?

What contexts will he allow them to be wrong in?

Why?

Having read the talk you posted, first off you give no indication of what parts you find "wrong." While I can guess your failings to comprehend the direction of the church perhaps center on the brief mention of Adam and Eve in Elder Dyers Talk, I surely can't be positive as we are supposed to guess.

Edited June 3, 2012 by SamIam

[DBMormon]

He allowed it once before. Although he has promised it would not happen again as a whole, he will continue to let individuals lose their authority, keys, etc as they sin and not repent.

I am speaking of the church, not one leader at a given time. If one leader does that he should be removed by some means

[Anijen]

I am speaking of the church, not one leader at a given time. If one leader does that he should be removed by some means

I knew what you were speaking of hence when I wrote "He allowed it once before." Although we are free to choose and will always have our agency. Heavenly Father has promised it would not happen again (speaking of the church). It is much easier today to keep a functioning church with priesthood leadership than it was 2000 years ago. However, sin and temptations are just as abundant as it was back then.

[DBMormon]

I knew what you were speaking of hence when I wrote "He allowed it once before." Although we are free to choose and will always have our agency. Heavenly Father has promised it would not happen again (speaking of the church). It is much easier today to keep a functioning church with priesthood leadership than it was 2000 years ago. However, sin and temptations are just as abundant as it was back then.

I also think the loss of authority stemmed in part from the murder of the original apostles which barring some horrific circumstance can't really happen again.

[mfbukowski]

MfBukowski - you can't say on one hand you are free to go by the spirit on what you follow and don't follow and then on the other say that whether by my voice or the voice of my servant it is the same and also from Pres. Benson 14 fundamentals

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Wilford Woodruff stated:

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

This doesn't make sense. The only way you can know a prophet IS a prophet is by the spirit.

Why aren't you following the Pope or Dali Lama? They have a lot more "status"

Those folks think THEIR "prophet" will never lead them astray either. What about Jim Jones or this Mormon fundamentalist polygamist guy- what's his name again- they guy in jail? What about Martin Luther or Bahá'u'lláh or hundreds of other leaders of faiths who consider themselves as we consider our prophet??

Don't get me wrong- I have a testimony that TS Monson is the Lord's mouthpiece on earth but the only way anyone can know that is by the spirit.

Otherwise, just put their names on cards and throw them up in the air and pick one at random. They all have interesting philosophies if that is what you are after. They all have "status" and are great theologians if that is what you are after.

Unfortunately, only one speaks for the Lord, and the Lord himself is the only one who can tell you that. Why would anyone listen to anyone else?

I bet I could make a few million coming up with my own church, but unfortunately it would not be the Lord's church.

[mfbukowski]

You know how little kids always question everything? I am one of those little kids, but my entire life I have only asked one question: "How do you know that's true?"

Take every statement on this thread and tack that question at the end of it, and you will understand my point very well. You will find that the bottom line is that the only possible answer to any of these questions is to either take someone else's word for it, or know it for yourself. In science, we take someone else's word for it, because I am not a nuclear physicist nor a molecular biologist etc. We can only be those things one at a time because the fields are so vast.

But when it comes to religion, with abstract questions like what gives my life meaning, only YOU can know the answer for yourself. But for me, I will follow what the Lord has told me. THAT is what I know in my gut, if you pardon that expression.

[theplains]

First of all one must understand the purpose of a prophet, which is stated from LDS.org as:

Like the prophets of old, prophets today testify of Jesus Christ and teach His gospel. They make known God's will and true character. They speak boldly and clearly, denouncing sin and warning of its consequences. At times, they may be inspired to prophesy of future events for our benefit.

If one understands this is the purpose of prophets, and that everything else they say is to help bring about these things, based often on their own experience and inspiration, then what does it matter if something isn't quite "right" to what we later discover by gaining greater knowledge.

As an evangelical, I wish I had the equivalent of the records of the General Conferences as it pertains to the early church

leaders (Peter, Paul, etc). For your latter point, Jehovah's Witnesses use the analogy of the greater light correcting the

lesser light (in this case, false teachings and/or false prophecies given in the past are refuted/corrected by the present).

Can leaders in any religion (be it a Pope/Cardinal/LDS President/Member of the Quorum/Dalai Lama/a spiritual guru from

India/SDA President/JW Presiding Body) lead some (if not most) people astray by their teachings? I would say "yes" ... if

its a false teaching to begin with. People can also be deceived if the "teaching" does not rise to the level of a "doctrine".

Regards,

Jim

[KevinG]

I think it really staggers the imagination of some people that through the ministration of the Holy Ghost millions of Mormon leaders and disciples of Christ around the world could be so unified in their belief in the important aspects of the Gospel without the use of coercion or deception.

[The Nehor]

I think the distinction is that while the prophet can be wrong the Prophet will not be allowed to lead the people to hell.

[Kenngo1969]

"Not wrong enough to affect anyone's salvation."

There!

Satisfied?

[Kenngo1969]

I think it really staggers the imagination of some people that through the ministration of the Holy Ghost millions of Mormon leaders and disciples of Christ around the world could be so unified in their belief in the important aspects of the Gospel without the use of coercion or deception.

Indeed.

[ERayR]

My answer is he will let them be as wrong as they want to be. On the other side of the coin they and us can be as right as we allow ourselves to be.

[mfbukowski]

I think it really staggers the imagination of some people that through the ministration of the Holy Ghost millions of Mormon leaders and disciples of Christ around the world could be so unified in their belief in the important aspects of the Gospel without the use of coercion or deception.

I agree- it is truly one of the great miracles of our day and yet so few see it. Who would buy the angel and the plates and Book of Abraham, Kolob etc and pay 10% of their income on such a crazy story if the Lord himself did not tell them it is true?!

[The Nehor]

Who would buy the angel and the plates and Book of Abraham, Kolob etc and pay 10% of their income on such a crazy story if the Lord himself did not tell them it is true?!

I have some Scientologists here that would like to have a word.....

[CV75]

The toughest issue for me to crack right now is how wrong will God let the prophet/apostle/general authorities/correlation be?

I'd say you need to get a life!

Once I had a testimony, the faults of leaders (real or imagined) didn't bother me in the least. Once "I knew it, and I knew that God knew it," all I really had to worry about was applying the expanding resources He gave me with which to love and serve His children.