Heavenly Father, Christ, And What "One" Means

TAO · April 11, 2012

Hey guys, there was a question in the Social Hall that I offered to move to General Discussion. Hopefully I didn't do the wrong thing (if I did, mods please close this).

In any case, here is 'onelovedbyJesus's question:

Jesus specifically said He and the Father are one. the greek word one in this context is translated to mean in nature and essence, perfections, and particularly in power.
so i guess my question is i dont really understand how the greek word "hen" which is one when Jesus says "I and the Father are one" can be interpreted differently than what is plainly said?
not trying to start arguement merly a discussion

Keep in mind, he is new here, so please keep conversation civil. Thanks =D.

OnelovedbyJesus · April 11, 2012

if you dont mind i will add the verse that goes along with this, thanks!

John 10:30-38

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

again thanks!

why me · April 11, 2012

They are one in purpose but separate.

JAHS · April 11, 2012

Jesus said:

"For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh"

When jesus uses the word "one" here He did not mean that a man and woman would actually become one person when they are married, but that they would dedicate themselves to each other, work together and be one in purpose and spirit.

As Jesus was praying to the Father He said:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" (John 17:11, 21-22)

Here, Christ prayed for his disciples and other converts, that they should be preserved in unity, "that they all may be one" as the Father and the Son are one. I don't know if the greek word for "one" used in the above verses is the same in the other passages that say god and jesus are one.

Edited April 11, 2012 by JAHS

TAO · April 11, 2012

No prob!

In any case, now I'm gonna take a stab at a response. =).

There, is, in my opinion, alot of parts which could lead to either of the two interpretations. You have listed several, which point out to the 'one-ness' interpretation. There are ones that go in the other direction, however. The SometimesSaint, in another thread, pointed out this one:

John 17:11-26
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the ^aworld, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be ^bone, as we are.
none of them is ^blost, but the son of ^cperdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
joy fulfilled in themselves.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the ^aworld, but that thou shouldest ^bkeep them from the ^cevil.
world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy ^btruth: thy word is ^ctruth.
sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall ^bbelieve on me through their word;
one; as thou, ^bFather, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ^cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
one, even as we are ^bone:
perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast ^bloved them, as thou hast loved me.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not ^aknown thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
declared unto them thy ^bname, and will declare it: that the ^clove wherewith thou hast ^dloved me may be in them, and I in them.

As this verse, shows, Christ sometimes prays to the Father. Now, it would be kinda weird for Christ to be talking to himself, which is what would be the case if it was 'one-ness'. So, we instead use the alternative interpretation - being "one" means being one in purpose. Furthermore, we will be one with Christ in the same way once we are ressurected to a state of happiness. In other words, it won't destroy our individuality, rather, we will see all the goodness of Christ's laws, and conform to them, becoming one in that manner. We will all still have our own bodies, and our own spirits. But each and every one of us will have the same goal - to spread Christ's gospel. =)

Or something sorta along those lines =D.

Best of Wishes,

-TAO

OnelovedbyJesus · April 11, 2012

I understand how the interpretation of one in purpose can be seen, though from the example of john 10:30 specifically the greek word hen as i said before meant in nature and essence, perfections, and particularly in power.

and i agree how can Jesus be praying to himself?? confusing right? i was for a while confused myself though after reserach in the bible i was able to learn some things. when Jesus came down in the flesh.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
2. John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Philippians 2

^⁵Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
^⁶Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
^⁷But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
^⁸And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross

^{but who are we to say we understand every or any aspec of God? He is infinite so no one can say Jesus cant pray to God or Himself.}

^{thanks for the help and discussion!!}

OnelovedbyJesus · April 11, 2012

I understand how the interpretation of one in purpose can be seen, though from the example of john 10:30 specifically the greek word hen as i said before meant in nature and essence, perfections, and particularly in power.

and i agree how can Jesus be praying to himself?? confusing right? i was for a while confused myself though after reserach in the bible i was able to learn some things. when Jesus came down in the flesh.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
2. John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Philippians 2

^⁵Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
^⁶Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
^⁷But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
^⁸And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross

^{but who are we to say we understand every or any aspec of God?}

TAO · April 11, 2012

I understand how the interpretation of one in purpose can be seen, though from the example of john 10:30 specifically the greek word hen as i said before meant in nature and essence, perfections, and particularly in power.
and i agree how can Jesus be praying to himself?? confusing right? i was for a while confused myself though after reserach in the bible i was able to learn some things. when Jesus came down in the flesh.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Philippians 2
^⁵Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
^⁶Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
^⁷But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
^⁸And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross
^{but who are we to say we understand every or any aspec of God?}

Mmm... I don't think we understand every aspect of God. But we must understand some aspects: we understand how he is amazingly merciful, and amazingly loving, and many other amazing things. We understand enough to communicate with God via the Holy Spirit. We understand enough to call him a Father and a Brother, and, a Savior. We may not understand these things fully, but we do understand them to at least a tiny degree =).
In any case, I think we'll continue to disagree on the interpretations. But that is okay, that it is. =).

Vance · April 11, 2012

As I see it, IF

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Means that the Father and the Son are one being/person/entity.

THEN

1 Cor 3:6 I (Paul) have planted, Apollos watered; . .

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one:

Means that Paul and Apollos are one being/person/entity.

thesometimesaint · April 11, 2012

Jesus and God the Father are not the same person. Jesus instructed the Apostles to pray to God the Father not to himself. For only God the Father knows when Jesus will come back. Jesus did only the will of the Father not his own will. At Jesus's baptism he was not saying he was well pleased with himelf. The Scriptures are replete with examples of where Jesus is not the same person as God the father.

why me · April 11, 2012

^{but who are we to say we understand every or any aspec of God?}

This is true. However, when Christ was on the earth and if he were god in the flesh, the question will remain: who was watching the ship, when god was made flesh? The world still had millions of people living life, doing wrong and doing right. Who was watching over them when god was made flesh and occupied attempting to save the world?

My point is simple: Christ needed to carry out the will of the father and the father was still watching over the earth. Their purpose was one but separate as beings.

followerofemmanuel · April 11, 2012

As confusing as the Trinity can seem, I also find the idea that Jesus and Heavenly Father are two separate Gods but one in purpose, also really confusing. Some of the LDS understandings of of who God is seem to make sense but then I get stuck where in Isaiah 44:8 the Bible says "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Wouldn't Heavenly Father know everything? To me this one verse speaks clearly that there being only one God period. From there I then need to understand where Jesus and the Holy Spirit fit in. What are peoples thoughts?

Edited April 12, 2012 by followerofemmanuel

mfbukowski · April 11, 2012

if you dont mind i will add the verse that goes along with this, thanks!
John 10:30-38
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
again thanks!

I learned an interesting fact this last week.

There is a monument to Brigham Young in the Avenues section of Salt Lake City which contains his grave, and on the statue of the monument, Brigham is teaching his children the scriptures, and the book is opened to John 10. The entire text is visible there on the monument.

It's pretty understandable why that is.

JAHS · April 11, 2012

As confusing as the Trinity can seem I also find the idea that Jesus and Heavenly Father as two separate Gods, one in purpose also really confusing. Some the LDS position seems to make sense but then I get stuck where inIsaiah 44:8 "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Wouldn't Heavenly Father know everything? To me this one verse speaks to there being only one God period. From there I then need to understand where Jesus and the Holy Spirit fit in. What are peoples thoughts.

In Isaiah 44:8 the way I see it if you read it within the context is that Jehovah was trying to persuade the Israelites from worshipping the many false gods of their neighbors, and he wanted them to focus on their God, Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ.

mfbukowski · April 11, 2012

As confusing as the Trinity can seem I also find the idea that Jesus and Heavenly Father as two separate Gods, one in purpose also really confusing. Some the LDS position seems to make sense but then I get stuck where inIsaiah 44:8 "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Wouldn't Heavenly Father know everything? To me this one verse speaks to there being only one God period. From there I then need to understand where Jesus and the Holy Spirit fit in. What are peoples thoughts.

They are one as a family is "one"- assuming we were perfect and always responded "correctly" to each situation which arose. It's not even that they are so much of "one mind" as it is that just as you know what is right and wrong, and your parents and you and your grown siblings might be "one" in knowing what is right and wrong, you still might have to teach children what you already almost instinctively know about a situation.

You don't stare at funny looking people. You don't make personal comments about people etc. Those are extremely simple examples, but imagine that the entire workings of the universe were as obvious to you- and your family - as those things are to you.

You would be "one" with your family in knowing those things, and the response of one to a question would be the same response another would give. As your family reaches more and more knowledge, you become one in more and more ways. Perhaps you are one in politics for example, or in your opposition or support for specific issues- maybe gun control or abortion etc- complex issues, but yet things on which you can agree.

After an eternity, perhaps your family would grow to be "one" as each of you learned what was right in all things. Like that the Republican party is always right.

(just kidding of course)

Anyway, that's kind of the way I see it. As we accumulate more wisdom and light, we grow together. Ask a dozen sets of great grandparents about child rearing and I bet you will get phenomenally similar answers.

Anyway, that's what I think!

KevinG · April 11, 2012

I'm down with being one.

JeremyOrbe-Smith · April 11, 2012

I like to look at it as if we're still taking part in the Hymn of Creation that was spontaneously sung at the foundation of the world. We each have our distinct notes to sing, we are all distinct individuals, and yet the overarching effect is a unified song. We're not "one" in the sense of a plainchant, where each voice is exactly identical and interchangeable with the other; we're "one" in the sense of harmony, where many different strands come together to form a cohesive chorus without losing sight of all the individuals who contribute their unique richness and depth to the whole.

volgadon · April 11, 2012

Jesus specifically said He and the Father are one. the greek word one in this context is translated to mean in nature and essence, perfections, and particularly in power.

Would you mind directing me to a study showing that such are part of the semantic field of the Greek word one?

Damien the Leper · April 12, 2012

Would you mind directing me to a study showing that such are part of the semantic field of the Greek word one?

I'm going to second your CFR, Volgadon. I would like to know what the Greek word used to support this position is. Further, I would like to see a study of its linguistics and etymology.

mfbukowski · April 12, 2012

Would you mind directing me to a study showing that such are part of the semantic field of the Greek word one?

Excellent excellent point! Too bad I can't give you more than one rep point on that one!

Vance · April 12, 2012

As confusing as the Trinity can seem, I also find the idea that Jesus and Heavenly Father are two separate Gods but one in purpose, also really confusing. Some of the LDS understandings of of who God is seem to make sense but then I get stuck where in Isaiah 44:8 the Bible says "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Wouldn't Heavenly Father know everything? To me this one verse speaks clearly that there being only one God period. From there I then need to understand where Jesus and the Holy Spirit fit in. What are peoples thoughts?

Just for fun let's look at the 1828 dictionary definition of "besides".

besides
BESI'DES, prep. Over and above; separate or distinct from. And there was a famine in the land, besides the first famine. Gen.26.

Nothing exclusionary there. Nothing that can be construed to mean that no other real and true gods exist.

To quote Fessick, "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

Edited April 12, 2012 by Vance

TheSkepticChristian · April 14, 2012

It's very good explained in the book of Mormon

3 Nephi 19:23

23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that Imay be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

TheSkepticChristian · April 14, 2012

3 Nephi 19:29

29 Father, I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me out of the world, because of their faith, that they may be purified in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may beone, that I may be glorified in them.

TheSkepticChristian · April 14, 2012

This scripture is also very good to explain what it means to be one

3 Ne 28:10

10 And for this cause ye shall have ^afulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are ^bone;

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