Single Men, Marriage And Pre-Adult Limbo

[bluebell]

Since I missed anyone saying life was a puppet theater with God playing all the parts, I guess now I must indeed have misunderstood the discussion.

I don't have any idea what you are trying to say so that's my cue! Have a great night.

[Log]

Yeah, Duncan, you seem to have a good grasp of what's in your power.

As an aside, once upon a time, I had a membership on LDSSingles and LDSMingle. Interesting times. I learned a couple of things.

Even if I believe a sister might be a good match, I cannot will myself to fall in love with her; the heart cannot be commanded.

I cannot possibly know of myself that any particular sister is an appropriate (complementary) companion. It's revelation or bust.

Love is of God, and save he bestows it, I cannot have it. Love also does not necessarily mean the object of one's affection is a suitable companion; God has his own purposes for bestowing it.

God is the architect of the human heart.

In these last few years, I have come to understand that eternal marriage - the divine union of man and woman, available only through obedience to the commandments of God and submission to the ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ - is of central importance to us, our destiny, and our fulfillment as humans. The Lord God is actively crafting his sons and daughters for each other, through their experiences, that they may be made complementary, and, in sealing, perfectly united and fulfilled as one in heart and spirit, that they are mutually indwelling, and to be thus united is an invitation to eternal life and exaltation.

With those things in mind, and I cannot put it sufficiently into words as to communicate it to your hearts, it is my view that I have only to do two things towards finding companionship.

1. Repent.

2. Obey the voice of the Spirit.

Anything more or less than this is not the Lord's way.

And, because of this, I tend not to tell "war stories." What would be the point?

Edited March 18, 2012 by Log

[The Nehor]

Wow, this thread exploded while I was gone. I apologize to everyone here for any contribution I may have had to the directions it has gone in.

[Mormonme]

Duncan, don't feed the troll in his attempt to pervert the thread to his own agenda.

Don't feed the troll? Absolutely charming and delightful I'm sure.

There are a percentage of unmarried single men and women in the Mormon church who are homosexual.

If the Mormon church allowed Gay marriage instead of fighting a war against it, there would be less unmarried single people in the church.

My 'agenda' is to oppose institutionalised homophobia.

[selek1]

Yeah, Duncan, you seem to have a good grasp of what's in your power.

As an aside, once upon a time, I had a membership on LDSSingles and LDSMingle. Interesting times. I learned a couple of things.

Even if I believe a sister might be a good match, I cannot will myself to fall in love with her; the heart cannot be commanded.

I cannot possibly know of myself that any particular sister is an appropriate (complementary) companion. It's revelation or bust.

Love is of God, and save he bestows it, I cannot have it. Love also does not necessarily mean the object of one's affection is a suitable companion; God has his own purposes for bestowing it.

God is the architect of the human heart.

In these last few years, I have come to understand that eternal marriage - the divine union of man and woman, available only through obedience to the commandments of God and submission to the ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ - is of central importance to us, our destiny, and our fulfillment as humans. The Lord God is actively crafting his sons and daughters for each other, through their experiences, that they may be made complementary, and, in sealing, perfectly united and fulfilled as one in heart and spirit, that they are mutually indwelling, and to be thus united is an invitation to eternal life and exaltation.

With those things in mind, and I cannot put it sufficiently into words as to communicate it to your hearts, it is my view that I have only to do two things towards finding companionship.

1. Repent.

2. Obey the voice of the Spirit.

Anything more or less than this is not the Lord's way.

And, because of this, I tend not to tell "war stories." What would be the point?

Ironically- I agree with nearly everything in this post.

That having been said, I cannot see where (as you suggest) we disagree on the fundamentals.

[Log]

Minor differences in doctrinal matters, which, if we had a chance to discuss face-to-face, we would undoubtedly come to agreement on - that's it. Or not. I see you have agreed to statements by another poster in another thread on a similar subject which I think are palpably false on their face.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Log

[TAO]

Don't feed the troll? Absolutely charming and delightful I'm sure.

There are a percentage of unmarried single men and women in the Mormon church who are homosexual.

If the Mormon church allowed Gay marriage instead of fighting a war against it, there would be less unmarried single people in the church.

My 'agenda' is to oppose institutionalised homophobia.

Mmmm... not to be OT, but, if we did this, we'd break the instructions God has given the prophets and apostles.

You see, we could say nothing in the world is sin, and that everybody would be 'saved', but that's the very carnal world we are trying to avoid. Yes, less people will be married if we oppose homosexual marriage, but the alternative is a worse idea. A world without restrictions is what we are avoiding. This is one of the restrictions we have, that it is.

____________________

As for something related to the topic... imho... I think that we don't need to focus so much on critiquing either the men or the women, so much as we need to keep telling them 'get married', 'do not be ultra picky', and 'date many people so you can find who you want'. The church has been doing a good job at this, I'd love it if they kept it up with more of that, it is what really matters!

[Hamba Tuhan]

But as for the article, the major problem I have with it, is that it really doesn't apply to an LDS demographic. Most of the trends that they mentioned are simply not occuring within the female population....at least in UT and BYU.

FWIW, I think you may be living in a demographic 'bubble'. When I was doing my masters study in the US (Midwest), we had a YSA BBQ one Saturday afternoon to watch a gridiron game, and a bunch of YSAs from a nearby city was invited to join us. The guys were all in the lounge room watching the game, but I find gridiron the second most-boring sport in the world to watch (after cricket), so I migrated to the kitchen, where the females--all active members--were congregated and talking animatedly. I arrived just in time to hear the unanimous chorus of 'amens' which accompanied the statement that no fuddy-duddies in SLC were going to tell them to put forming families ahead of careers and 'personal fulfilment'.

[LeSellers]

What is wrong with women who want to finish an education or take control of their own reproductive agency?

Who said they shouldn't "finish an education or take control of their own reproductive agency"? Not I.

What I said was that this is the reason they give for failing to even want to date seriously, and for desiring, long before they're able to make independent decisions about the matters, to have few or now children, quite in defiance of the commandment to establish families and "multiply".

My Jacquie and I have seven children. She has a degree, as do I (two for me, and all three of which I count as wasted time and money—I've learned more from extensive reading and living in many different places, and what I've learned in life is more valuable than any college class or course of instruction, and she has, too).

I believe that society is obliged to interfere and teach girls and women that they should put themselves first, get educations, and determine for themselves when, with whom, and how many, children will enter into their lives.

"Put themselves first" is just an acceptable way of saying "they should be selfish and egocentric".

This life is not about the individual, it's about serving others. We serve our families first. But, with no family, that's more'n a bit tough.

Education is important. Family is more so.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

Education opens the door, but we still have to walk through it.

[LDSToronto]

Who said they shouldn't "finish an education or take control of their own reproductive agency"? Not I.

What I said was that this is the reason they give for failing to even want to date seriously, and for desiring, long before they're able to make independent decisions about the matters, to have few or now children, quite in defiance of the commandment to establish families and "multiply".

I can see why you'd see there is a difference. I don't see one, but we have different perspectives. You've actually clarified a point that was somewhat murky for me. In the LDS Church, dating is encouraged, but we should face a distinct attribute of LDS dating - dating leads to very quick marriages. I got married 9 months after my first date with my wife, so don't feel I am critical of quick marriages.

If dating just lead to more dating, I think there'd be less of what some here are describing as 'rejection' or even lack of desire to date. But in the LDS culture, dating leads to marriage proposals. Perhaps what we are seeing are LDS singles who have realized this and are less likely to date someone that they would not feel comfortable spending their lives with.

Or, even more so - LDS women may see marriage as the end of their own hopes and aspirations. This may not be the case in Jacquie's life, Lehi, but it is the case in many women's lives.

Thoughts?

H.

[LDSToronto]

"Put themselves first" is just an acceptable way of saying "they should be selfish and egocentric".

Um, no. That's the way you've chosen to interpret the phrase.

This life is not about the individual, it's about serving others. We serve our families first. But, with no family, that's more'n a bit tough.

LDS culture and theology teaches that one should commit one's life to service. OK, I'll buy that. But that doesn't mean one has to have a family to have a life of fulfilling service.

Education is important. Family is more so.

I'm not just talking about education; women have a right to hopes, dreams, aspirations, education, family, vocation, whatever they want. If they choose to rear a family according to the LDS ideal, that choice is no more noble or worthy than any other choice.

Labeling this behaviour as 'selfish and egocentric' is inappropriate.

H.

[frankenstein]

Here my two cents on female education. You never know when you need to able to provide.

A LDS Bishop, with 6 children, was sentenced to 72 months incarceration, the wife will now have to figure out how to take care of the family. And before any CFR the former bishop being sentenced I will not post the name as I am concerned someone here might know the family.

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

If someone waits till the wolf is at the door it's a bit too late to start to make other plans. Everyone should get a good education. We never know when unemployment, injury, divorce, or death may make it necessary for the other partner to have a good income.

[Jeff K.]

Regardless of circumstances, Frankenstein is correct. I won't worry about the economic well being of my family should I die. This is mainly due to my wife's talents and degree. Women without an education is indeed a waste of talents the Lord gave us.

[Deborah]

This thread reminds me of this:

I think one problem today is we are too hung up on "romantic" visions of what love is. Having said that it is pretty hard to think about facing every morning looking at someone with whom you have no chemistry.

Keep in mind both Isaac and Jacob had to go far away to find their wives. The Lord will guide us but we really have to do the work.

[Duncan]

frankenstein:

If someone waits till the wolf is at the door it's a bit too late to start to make other plans. Everyone should get a good education. We never know when unemployment, injury, divorce, or death may make it necessary for the other partner to have a good income.

death, divorce, disease happens to people and someone has to step up to take the wheel

[LDSToronto]

Regardless of circumstances, Frankenstein is correct. I won't worry about the economic well being of my family should I die. This is mainly due to my wife's talents and degree. Women without an education is indeed a waste of talents the Lord gave us.

Is economic backup the only reason a woman should pursue an education?

[thesometimesaint]

LDSToronto:

It's a good reason for both men and women. Not the only reason of course. Self improvement, learn something interesting, satisfy a thirst for knowledge, are also good reasons. if someone can apply that knowledge to improve their financial conditions as well that is so much more icing on the cake.

[LDSToronto]

LDSToronto:

It's a good reason for both men and women. Not the only reason of course. Self improvement, learn something interesting, satisfy a thirst for knowledge, are also good reasons. if someone can apply that knowledge to improve their financial conditions as well that is so much more icing on the cake.

Ah, good. Because it was starting to sound as though the only reason a woman should want to pursue education is to serve as a backup provider to the man if he is incapacitated by some means.

H.

[Calm]

LDS women may see marriage as the end of their own hopes and aspirations.

While some may, in my experience very, very few have ever expressed or even hinted at that belief in my experience, especially irl. Marriage itself tends to be a very big part of most LDS women's hopes and aspirations, they don't see it as an ending, but more of a beginning of new ways to reach those hopes and aspirations, even those who desire to have a full time career that demands a lot of time and effort and schooling. Edited March 18, 2012 by calmoriah

[Log]

Ah, good. Because it was starting to sound as though the only reason a woman should want to pursue education is to serve as a backup provider to the man if he is incapacitated by some means.

H.

In other words, you were trolling. That makes sense, given your avatar.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Log

[LDSToronto]

While some may, in my experience very, very few have ever expressed or even hinted at that belief in my experience, especially irl.

Not my experience at all. Most LDS women I know, and perhaps it's in Canada only that this happens, can't wait until their kids are old enough to be alone after school so that they can pursue vocational and educational interests.

Marriage itself tends to be a very big part of most LDS women's hopes and aspirations, even those who desire to have a full time career that demands a lot of time and effort and schooling.

Change the word 'part' to 'expectation' and I will agree.

H.

[MorningStar]

Not my experience at all. Most LDS women I know, and perhaps it's in Canada only that this happens, can't wait until their kids are old enough to be alone after school so that they can pursue vocational and educational interests.

Change the word 'part' to 'expectation' and I will agree.

H.

Oh, not in the US. We just dream of going to the bathroom by ourselves.

[LDSToronto]

In other words, you were trolling. That makes sense, given your avatar.

No, I was seeking clarification. And I fail to see the relationship between my avatar and trolling. Please explain.

H.