Single Men, Marriage And Pre-Adult Limbo

[Hamba Tuhan]

Yeah....great solution....look at what the women are doing wrong in the dating scene....on a thread about problematic trends in men. Kinda ironic really

Er, in case you didn't notice, Cinepro's OP was an excerpt from a book entitled Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[frankenstein]

Here is my take......EVERYONE IS PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SALVATION! (not yelling just emphasis)

If anyone wants to be out on a date, that person is responsible to keep asking for a date unrolled someone says yes.

To be very clear, if a female wants to be on a date it is her responsibility to ask until someone says yes.

To be very clear, if a male wants to be on a date it is his responsibility to ask until someone says yes.

If a female wants to be married it is her responsibility to ask someone to marry her.

If a male wants to be married it is his responsibility to ask someone to marry him.

The saints have learned very little from the scriptures, especially the saints have not learned to let go of foolish traditions.

I was single in the LDS church, and it is something I wish on no one and hope.never to repeat.

[Duncan]

Yeah....great solution....look at what the women are doing wrong in the dating scene....on a thread about problematic trends in men. Kinda ironic really

This thread reads like one large whine from guys about their crappy dating lives.

Honestly, women want to be single just about as much as men do...if not less so when they're mormon for a number of reasons....they're friends are all married, a large number of friends are having babies, and you just start feeling old around 24 or so. At least that's what I hear most often stated from the women I know in my ward full of "older" single adult women (around mid to late 20's. When you're in provo, surrounded by others who are marrying in their late teens, early twenties, trust me, you begin to feel older).

little grumpy....I'm studying physical science, which makes a terrible friday night date. So I'm not going to comment too specifically.

But here are my top reasons for why I've rejected dates (which I don't too often):

- I actually am extremely busy

- I'm not attracted to the person even a little (not that common right now)

- I don't feel anything for em (this is usually after the first or second date and honestly only recently.....there's an underlying problem about that which I'm working on)

- I like someone else

- I don't feel comfortable with them for some reason I can't immediately name (very important for me. Worst dating scenerio for most men: they're ignored after or their date goes sour. Worst dating scenerio for women: they're date raped/sexually assualted. Being honest here....smart women should listen to their gut more often)

Ironically, I don't have much to gripe about my dating life (except for physical science...that relationship is never going to work out). I'm at the moment perfectly at peace with where I am. I'm single. I'd prefer not to be. But I'm okay that this just isn't going to be my season for the bit. Nothing wrong with that. I trust God. I have plenty else He wants me to work on and become...so I work on what I can fix and relax about what's not in my hands.

one thing though: Duncan, the stache cannot overpower the wealth. being kissed by that is like getting a broom in your face. I agree with cinepro. The hat though....it's kinda trendy

With luv,

BD

I don't have a stache! and what is more I am independantly wealthy-I am independant of wealth!

[BlueDreams]

Er, in case you didn't notice, Cinepro's OP was an excerpt from a book entitled Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys.

Nope, didn't. Physical science is a demanding and unhealthy partner who kept insisting I not ignore it. I just read what he had posted and some of the responces. Later I'll probably have another list of problems based on that title.

With luv,

bd

[rodheadlee]

. Later I'll probably have another list of problems based on that title.

With luv,

bd

The list doesn't disappear after 38 years of marriage.

[Mormonme]

If the church were to change its stance on Gay marriage... They'd be tying the knot in droves! lol

[Saints Alive]

If the church were to change its stance on Gay marriage... They'd be tying the knot in droves! lol

besides completely giving up its ethic andoral values, how would that help straight single people get married?

[Mormonme]

besides completely giving up its ethic andoral values, how would that help straight single people get married?

The title of this topic is: Single Men, Marriage And Pre-Adult Limbo. Not: Straight Single Men, Marriage And Pre-Adult Limbo

Prior to 1978 the church banned interracial marriage as part of its 'ethic andoral values' - the post 1978 change was most welcome.

How exactly would allowing Gay Marriage hinder straight single people from getting married?

Don't derail the thread.

[Saints Alive]

Yeah....great solution....look at what the women are doing wrong in the dating scene....on a thread about problematic trends in men. Kinda ironic really

BD

I find it ironic that the first woman to post automatically deflects the issue back on men.

I was single in the church once... My problem was that I had been inactive and joined the military rather than going on a mission.

I usually didn't have any problems getting dates but it seem that when ever the subject of where I went on my mission came up and I told them i did a lot of "missions" in Afghanistan, they seemed to see red lights. It was almost as if no matter what I did for the church now ( i.e. I was an endowed and respectable member of the church) wasn't good enough because I went on a mission for uncle Sam instead of heavenly father.

In any case, fast forward a few years and I found my self a wonderful (and extremely beautiful I may add) woman, taking lesson from the missionaries, untainted form all the "only marry a returned missionary" baggage. We are now happily married.

I guess the moral of the story is that sometimes we need to be open to others and sometimes we need to look outside the box if we want to find a partner.

[LDSToronto]

I'm getting the impression that a couple of you in this thread feel that men are entitled to dates, perhaps even view dating as a right, not a privilege. Just because a girl is single doesn't mean she is obligated to date anyone who asks her.

H.

[LDSToronto]

In the past few years, Church leaders have started being a little more vocal about the increase in unmarried LDS in their 20s. Today's Wall Street Journal has a good overview of the trend in society in general that has led to this:

Where Have the Good Men Gone?

While there are obviously cultural and doctrinal influences on LDS men that set them apart from their non-LDS single peers, they could share common influences that have led to this trend.

Other than pleading with these men from the pulpit, what more can the Church do?

How about 'do nothing'? Is the church responsible for people getting married?

H.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Just because a girl is single doesn't mean she is obligated to date anyone who asks her.

I agree 100%. I didn't fight to secure the gift of agency in the pre-existence only to tread on another's agency here. I'm quite happy for everyone else, single women included, to make whatever choices work for her/him. I am, however, a bit weary of the whole blame-men-for-the-decline-in-marriage shtick and find it refreshing that social commentators are starting to take a more-balanced approach.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[LDSToronto]

My observation is that it's no more likely that a young man is guilty of not wanting to marry tha for a young woman to refuse to accept his proposal.

The people I know who are in this position lament the fact that when they ask sisters out, the girls say, essentially, "Fine, but we can't become serious. I want to finish school" or some such excuse.

Further, when asked, most LDS girls, even at age 10 or 12, have decided they do not want any more than one or two children (sub replacement rate), and they do not change their minds.

What is wrong with women who want to finish an education or take control of their own reproductive agency? I would say that this is nobody's business, but I don't believe that - in a world where there are attitudes that tell women they have to put marriage and children before education and career, I believe that society is obliged to interfere and teach girls and women that they should put themselves first, get educations, and determine for themselves when, with whom, and how many, children will enter into their lives.

H.

[LDSToronto]

I agree 100%. I didn't fight to secure the gift of agency in the pre-existence only to tread on another's agency here. I'm quite happy for everyone else, single women included, to make whatever choices work for her/him. I am, however, a bit weary of the whole blame-men-for-the-decline-in-marriage shtick and find it refreshing that social commentators are starting to take a more-balanced approach.

There should be no blame put on women or on men. The LDS Church, in my experience, has always put that burden on men - in fact Thomas S. Monson laid the 'blame' squarely on the shoulders of men a couple of years back, if I recall correctly.

At the same time, I don't think this is a ***-for-tat issue. Shifting blame to women is not an answer (and I don't think that's what you are saying, Hamba). What might work is to listen to what both genders want in relationships and then take a modern approach to teaching both genders how to satisfy those needs.

H.

[thesometimesaint]

My wife was the one who asked me for our first date. So if a person(Male or Female) is interested they need to ask.

[Duncan]

I'm getting the impression that a couple of you in this thread feel that men are entitled to dates, perhaps even view dating as a right, not a privilege. Just because a girl is single doesn't mean she is obligated to date anyone who asks her.

H.

I hope it wasn't me! as I say there aren't any women here around my age, they are mostly younger like 18-22, but God knows where I live and there isn't a thing I can do about the women so I am working on myself, a bee is attracted to honey and so I am working on being the honey

[Duncan]

How about 'do nothing'? Is the church responsible for people getting married?

H.

i'll PM you!

[Messenger]

I think the subject is far more complex then men playing in the sandbox. I mean really? REALLY?

I know, lets start another hate forum topic as to why all the single men are not married. Or, we could discuss something never brought up before ...

WHY ALL THE WOMEN out there are not married. We could include the following ....

1. Why women seem to compete with other women in terms how how much money their husband makes? and how that can lead to divorce and the search for greener, perhaps more golden pastures?
   
2. Why women refuse to lift at least a finger in search for a husband?
   
3. Why women sometimes relax after being married, and forget about their marital responsibilities? (you know what I am talking about)
   
4. Why women complain incessantly (that's much nicer than the word I was going to use) about everything, and never seem to be content.
   
5. Why women seem to think that happiness is solely derived by obtaining the "house on the hill"
   
6. Why women gossip and gossip about other people and create fantasy theories (and posts) about why men are not married, among other things.
   

I thought it took two to tango? But, if a woman wonders why men aren't attracted to them, there are six possibilities above. All of which a sandbox has no problem with.

boring subject.

[BlueDreams]

don't have a lot of time. But as for the article, the major problem I have with it, is that it really doesn't apply to an LDS demographic. Most of the trends that they mentioned are simply not occuring within the female population....at least in UT and BYU. Women's GPA is about the same as men, they're slightly less likely to graduate, fewer women than men go on to grad school, UT also has the largest desparity in women's paychecks, and they enter their undergrads at almost the exact same rate. For example, my major, that is heavily women (following the overall trend in the country) during their undergrads, reverse once it hits grad work (not following the national trend) at BYU. My major's one that you really need to go do grad work or it's pretty useless. The other problem is family. Most women (and men) still highly value and want it insomuch that a common theme I hear when deciding a career path for both sexes is to plan what path would be most family-friendly. Women are more likely to pick majors that are flexible and can work around children. Men often mention how they'd prefer tracts that would allow them more time off and on the clock. Often this is hypothetical...they're not married or have children when deciding this. There's a number of negative trends I associate with this as well, but it revolves around a culture that desires marriage, family, and traditional roles... not the opposite.

So most of this article can't apply easily to an LDS population. It just doesn't work, culturally. The parts that do apply I find summed up in this line:

"It has delayed a stable sense of identity, dramatically expanded the pool of possible spouses, mystified courtship routines and helped to throw into doubt the very meaning of marriage."

At least in areas where there's a large lds population. The "expanded pool" is less so in areas with fewer members. Courtship is muddied with technology, and identity is less stapled down in someways.

Saints alive:

I find it ironic that the first woman to post automatically deflects the issue back on men.

Yep. Women have their own sets of problems that could be dished out. Women aren't perfect, most women are poignantly aware of them, plus some. Men have theirs. I just expected a thread talking about men's shortcomings would have, I don't know, more shortcomings of men. Reading the article makes more sense why this took the direction it did.

I liked your story in general though.

Today's busy, so I probably won't mention more than this for a while.

With luv,

BD

P.S. Duncan, I agree with toronto...but it didn't sound like you IMO. And I'm glad to hear you have little stache or cash....well maybe not the cash. Gotta pay the bills from time to time

Edited March 17, 2012 by BlueDreams

[volgadon]

Duncan pays bills? What do you think this footage is about if he paid bills?

[Gohan]

Yeah....great solution....look at what the women are doing wrong in the dating scene....on a thread about problematic trends in men. Kinda ironic really

This thread reads like one large whine from guys about their crappy dating lives.

I'll requote what I said earlier, with some emphasis added.

I concur with what the others have said, some of the burden/blame has to be taken off of the guys and placed on the girls as well.

I'm not going to say that it's all our responsibility/fault, but I'm also not going to contest that we guys do wrong by girls a lot. Especially after last night, when I sat there hugging and then giving a blessing to one of my best friends who was sobbing about the fact that she didn't think she was worth anything and wouldn't ever be married. That hurt to hear, especially since I know what an amazing girl she is.

I'm getting the impression that a couple of you in this thread feel that men are entitled to dates, perhaps even view dating as a right, not a privilege. Just because a girl is single doesn't mean she is obligated to date anyone who asks her.

H.

Then I'll respond by saying that you're getting the wrong impression.

[Duncan]

don't have a lot of time. But as for the article, the major problem I have with it, is that it really doesn't apply to an LDS demographic. Most of the trends that they mentioned are simply not occuring within the female population....at least in UT and BYU. Women's GPA is about the same as men, they're slightly less likely to graduate, fewer women than men go on to grad school, UT also has the largest desparity in women's paychecks, and they enter their undergrads at almost the exact same rate. For example, my major, that is heavily women (following the overall trend in the country) during their undergrads, reverse once it hits grad work (not following the national trend) at BYU. My major's one that you really need to go do grad work or it's pretty useless. The other problem is family. Most women (and men) still highly value and want it insomuch that a common theme I hear when deciding a career path for both sexes is to plan what path would be most family-friendly. Women are more likely to pick majors that are flexible and can work around children. Men often mention how they'd prefer tracts that would allow them more time off and on the clock. Often this is hypothetical...they're not married or have children when deciding this. There's a number of negative trends I associate with this as well, but it revolves around a culture that desires marriage, family, and traditional roles... not the opposite.

So most of this article can't apply easily to an LDS population. It just doesn't work, culturally. The parts that do apply I find summed up in this line:

"It has delayed a stable sense of identity, dramatically expanded the pool of possible spouses, mystified courtship routines and helped to throw into doubt the very meaning of marriage."

At least in areas where there's a large lds population. The "expanded pool" is less so in areas with fewer members. Courtship is muddied with technology, and identity is less stapled down in someways.

Saints alive:

Yep. Women have their own sets of problems that could be dished out. Women aren't perfect, most women are poignantly aware of them, plus some. Men have theirs. I just expected a thread talking about men's shortcomings would have, I don't know, more shortcomings of men. Reading the article makes more sense why this took the direction it did.

I liked your story in general though.

Today's busy, so I probably won't mention more than this for a while.

With luv,

BD

P.S. Duncan, I agree with toronto...but it didn't sound like you IMO. And I'm glad to hear you have little stache or cash....well maybe not the cash. Gotta pay the bills from time to time

oh, I pay the bills and some left over! not tons as I am not rolling in the loot but I am managing to pay for stuff, other then two student loans I have no debt

[Duncan]

Duncan pays bills? What do you think this footage is about if he paid bills?

ever see the Gold rush?

[GingerRed]

Dating is a bear, the older you are too! I'm 54. And trust me...men in their 50's do NOT date women in their 50's! That's the age men go through their midlife crisis....and only go for women in their 40's 30' ...even 20's!! I am a member of LDSPlanet.....and they ONLY interested men I've been getting messages of flirts from, are 60 or older!! I do have an age limit....62 or 63. I just cannot date my 'grandfather' okay? EW!! Anymore than I would go out with 30 or 20 year olds!! EW!! thats like dating my kid!

Now I did take exception to that rule. I dated a guy in my ward who's 69. We dated from Aug to Dec of last year, so pretty recent. He was a great guy! Had everything I could want in a man! He was a solid Priesthood holder...strong in the church (he taught our Gospel Doctrine class)...was a total gentleman, held the door for me helped me on with my coat ( LOVE that in a man!) ...treated me like a queen!! He was a widower....wife had passed 5 years earlier. He lived in a gorgeous 6 bedroom home! Had 4 wonderful daughters all married in the Temple with kids, he had 11 of the cutest grandchildren! At first I thought wow!! This could be the one! Then......after 5 months of dating I ended it. I never could fall for him! No chemistry....zip! I stupidly listened to my friends who told me to be patient,..'love needs to grow'....(well I'll never listen to THAT advice again!! If I don't feel SOMETHING....ANYTHING for the guy in the first few dates, its goodbye charlie! )

Now maybe the age difference did have something to do with us not clicking...I doubt I will date a guy that much older than me again. But ...I'm back on LDSPlanet hoping that maybe there's some guy on there I CAN have feelings for someday. Or meet a guy at an LDS activity. It's not that I'm miserable being single. I have a career I've been in for over 20 years that I love....I have lots of good close friends to spend time with. I travel. I work out at the gym with a trainer. I try to look my best. I'm no J-Lo, THATS for sure! And the older a guy gets the more the physical looks mean more to them. Heaven forbid they take a chance on a plain Jane! Gotta have that trophy on their arm!!

I know it sounds like I'm ragging on the men. But that's my personal experience.

[MorningStar]

I know a lot of guys who won't commit because they wonder if someone better will come along. I've also met women who become too set in their ways to handle being in a relationship. One friend in her 40's was finally dating a guy and it seemed like they were going to get married, but she started to feel like she was being smothered because they spent so much time together. She's used to being alone and making every decision. So she broke it off. This guy had been married before and was devastated.

One friend of mine in his 30's complained that women saw him as an older brother rather than someone to date. This cute little red head took a major interest in him, but he wanted someone who looked like a model. His loss. She was kind, thoughtful, and pretty too.

My husband's best friend is in his mid 30's and he is way picky. He dated a girl for years and her only downfall was that she didn't like hiking very much. We kept telling him that when kids come along, that's not going to happen as much anyway. You can't have everything in common and there were plenty of things that they did have in common.