Will Anyone Reject The Gospel In The Spirit World?

[Rob Osborn]

double post

Edited February 5, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

I tend to agree with you, and I believe the quotes from the Prophets in the OP tend to prove that the majority of people will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

I guesss what it boils down to is that I just have too much faith in the Atonement, God's love for his children and His Plan of Salvation. I think it's a much better and more inclusive Plan than people realize.

There is only one thing that separates men from being with Heavenly Father in his kingdom. That one thing is sin. Through the atonement, all men can be saved from their sins by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Of interest here is this- What is the one and only thing taught in the spirit world to "all"? It is the gospel- the plan for men to be saved into the very kingdom where the Father is. Not a lot o fpeople realize that even the wicked and disobedient in the spirit prison are again given the opportunity to accept the gospel and be saved through the atonement. Their eventual release from hell is wholly dependent upon them accepting the gospel and becoming a son or daughter of God. Many erroneoulsy believe that their acceptance there has not the power to advance them to the celestial because of their rejection in mortality of the gospel. I am sorry to say but that is a false doctrine! We must remind ourselves of the ultimate goal and gameplan of God here- returning his lost sheep (the sinner) back into the fold (kingdom of heaven). When Christ says that "none of them is lost except the son of perdition", he means that none of them is lost from the kingdom of heaven (singular) except those devils and his angels.

[blackstrap]

Something is bothering me about this. God will force no man to heaven.True or false? So according to the plan He will allow all to stew in their own juices,so to speak, until they can suffer no more and finally give in to the gospel truths and confess and repent . Then they will be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.If we are to judge from our present situation,there seem to be all kinds of levels of commitment to righteousness with us now and that won't change in the hereafter,any more than it did in the pre-existence.I have trouble with the idea that no matter what we do,or think,in mortality,it has ultimately no effect on our final reward.Is that what we are to glean from the parable of the workmen?

[mercyngrace]

Something is bothering me about this. God will force no man to heaven.True or false? So according to the plan He will allow all to stew in their own juices,so to speak, until they can suffer no more and finally give in to the gospel truths and confess and repent . Then they will be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.If we are to judge from our present situation,there seem to be all kinds of levels of commitment to righteousness with us now and that won't change in the hereafter,any more than it did in the pre-existence.I have trouble with the idea that no matter what we do,or think,in mortality,it has ultimately no effect on our final reward.Is that what we are to glean from the parable of the workmen?

Blackstrap -

The 70 or so years you are in this telestial world are not the end or beginning of the plan. Every person born on this earth once shouted for joy and chose Christ. Now we see through a glass darkly and our accountability is directly proportional to our visibility.

Do you think, that people who already supported Christ and endorsed the Father's plan - indeed celebrated it - may possibly embrace it again once their vision is restored and the veil is removed? Do you think their finite works, performed with limited vision, should bring infinite punishment?

An analogy:

Imagine a group of children at a birthday party preparing to break open a Pinata. Initially, they all see the Pinata hanging before them. They see the bat and the blindfold. They understand what to do and they willingly engage in the game. Should be easy, right? And think of the prize!

And then they are blindfolded and spun around until they lose their bearings. Voices begin yelling out directions, "Swing here!", "No, this way!", "Up!", "Higher!" and so forth. Perhap the calm voice of the parent who gives accurate instructions is lost in the chaos. Perhaps the child simply can't understand the directions very well for one reason or another. The game goes on, child after child. One stumbles over a tree root, scraping his own knee. Another swings the bat and hits a friend. This game can be dangerous!

Blindfolded, the pinata that is well within reach, seems confusingly distant. Most children will miss their target by a mile.

Once the blindfold is removed, each player is surprised at how close the pinata was all along and, relieved to have their vision restored, they join the game again as at first - calling out instructions for the next child at bat. The players, after having played the game, have an even clearer vision of the goal. With their eyes open, they look at the adult guiding the game and they focus on his voice to the exclusion of others. They see the way the Pinata moves as a result of the pulled rope and they note that the moved isn't random after all, in spite of how it seemed when their eyes were covered.

If you gave them the bat without the blindfold, what do you think would happen? Would they be able to hit the Pinata? If they did, would you deny them the prize? As the parent holding the rope, would you expect the children to hit the Pinata blindfolded? Should the child who hit the pinata while blindfolded receive more candy for his lucky strike?

[Senator]

Blackstrap -

The 70 or so years you are in this telestial world are not the end or beginning of the plan. Every person born on this earth once shouted for joy and chose Christ. Now we see through a glass darkly and our accountability is directly proportional to our visibility.

Do you think, that people who already supported Christ and endorsed the Father's plan - indeed celebrated it - may possibly embrace it again once their vision is restored and the veil is removed? Do you think their finite works, performed with limited vision, should bring infinite punishment?

An analogy:

Imagine a group of children at a birthday party preparing to break open a Pinata. Initially, they all see the Pinata hanging before them. They see the bat and the blindfold. They understand what to do and they willingly engage in the game. Should be easy, right? And think of the prize!

And then they are blindfolded and spun around until they lose their bearings. Voices begin yelling out directions, "Swing here!", "No, this way!", "Up!", "Higher!" and so forth. Perhap the calm voice of the parent who gives accurate instructions is lost in the chaos. Perhaps the child simply can't understand the directions very well for one reason or another. The game goes on, child after child. One stumbles over a tree root, scraping his own knee. Another swings the bat and hits a friend. This game can be dangerous!

Blindfolded, the pinata that is well within reach, seems confusingly distant. Most children will miss their target by a mile.

Once the blindfold is removed, each player is surprised at how close the pinata was all along and, relieved to have their vision restored, they join the game again as at first - calling out instructions for the next child at bat. The players, after having played the game, have an even clearer vision of the goal. With their eyes open, they look at the adult guiding the game and they focus on his voice to the exclusion of others. They see the way the Pinata moves as a result of the pulled rope and they note that the moved isn't random after all, in spite of how it seemed when their eyes were covered.

If you gave them the bat without the blindfold, what do you think would happen? Would they be able to hit the Pinata? If they did, would you deny them the prize? As the parent holding the rope, would you expect the children to hit the Pinata blindfolded? Should the child who hit the pinata while blindfolded receive more candy for his lucky strike?

I was always a little ticked and expressed the futility of the game, upon seeing that, in order to prolong the pinata, the person wielding the rope, would suddenly yank the candy filled prize up and out of the way of a forseen direct hit.

[Peppermint Patty]

Do you think their finite works, performed with limited vision, should bring infinite punishment?

Excellent point. I truly believe that most of us don't realize the full power of the Atonement or the Savior's love for us. I also feel that most people significantly underestimate how effective, inclusive and far-reaching God's Plain of Salvation truly is.

[zerinus]

Blackstrap -

The 70 or so years you are in this telestial world are not the end or beginning of the plan. Every person born on this earth once shouted for joy and chose Christ. Now we see through a glass darkly and our accountability is directly proportional to our visibility.

Do you think, that people who already supported Christ and endorsed the Father's plan - indeed celebrated it - may possibly embrace it again once their vision is restored and the veil is removed? Do you think their finite works, performed with limited vision, should bring infinite punishment?

An analogy:

Imagine a group of children at a birthday party preparing to break open a Pinata. Initially, they all see the Pinata hanging before them. They see the bat and the blindfold. They understand what to do and they willingly engage in the game. Should be easy, right? And think of the prize!

And then they are blindfolded and spun around until they lose their bearings. Voices begin yelling out directions, "Swing here!", "No, this way!", "Up!", "Higher!" and so forth. Perhap the calm voice of the parent who gives accurate instructions is lost in the chaos. Perhaps the child simply can't understand the directions very well for one reason or another. The game goes on, child after child. One stumbles over a tree root, scraping his own knee. Another swings the bat and hits a friend. This game can be dangerous!

Blindfolded, the pinata that is well within reach, seems confusingly distant. Most children will miss their target by a mile.

Once the blindfold is removed, each player is surprised at how close the pinata was all along and, relieved to have their vision restored, they join the game again as at first - calling out instructions for the next child at bat. The players, after having played the game, have an even clearer vision of the goal. With their eyes open, they look at the adult guiding the game and they focus on his voice to the exclusion of others. They see the way the Pinata moves as a result of the pulled rope and they note that the moved isn't random after all, in spite of how it seemed when their eyes were covered.

If you gave them the bat without the blindfold, what do you think would happen? Would they be able to hit the Pinata? If they did, would you deny them the prize? As the parent holding the rope, would you expect the children to hit the Pinata blindfolded? Should the child who hit the pinata while blindfolded receive more candy for his lucky strike?

I see two problems with that reasoning: Firstly, those who enter one of the lower kingdoms of glory are still considered "saved". They are still "heirs of salvation" (D&C 76:88; 138:59). It is not as though they get no "candies" at all. It is just that they get a better candy, or more of it (to use a poor analogy), the higher up the kingdom they get. Secondly, they get the candy that they want. The reason why they don't get a better candy is because they actually don't want it. They don't appreciate it. They settle for what they really and truly want. They wouldn't be happy if they were given something different:

D&C 88:

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

We each get the candy that we really want, not the one that you think we ought to want!

Edited February 5, 2012 by zerinus

[mercyngrace]

actually I think the presumption is on the other foot. you presume to know what kind of candy the children want to based on how well they hit blindfolded. I don't have to presume what kind of candy they want, I know what kind of candy caused them to shout for joy.

[zerinus]

actually I think the presumption is on the other foot. you presume to know what kind of candy the children want to based on how well they hit blindfolded.

I think it is the other way round. I made no presumption to know what kind of candy they really want. You are the one presuming to know what candy they want or should have. You are prescribing their candies for them; whereas they Lord allows them to choose for themselves.

I don't have to presume what kind of candy they want, I know what kind of candy caused them to shout for joy.

I am not quite sure what you mean here. If you are alluding to the pre-existence, they "shouted for joy" for the privilege of choosing for themselves what destiny they want, rather than their destiny being imposed on them from above.

Edited February 5, 2012 by zerinus

[mercyngrace]

I am indeed alluding to the pre mortal choices we made. We alreadY had agency as intelligences. What we lacked was the knowledge and body requisite for a fulness of joy.

[zerinus]

I am indeed alluding to the pre mortal choices we made. We alreadY had agency as intelligences. What we lacked was the knowledge and body requisite for a fulness of joy.

That is not quite correct actually. The battle in the pre-existence was over the right of choice. We rejoiced over the prospect of choosing our own destiny in mortality, rather than it being imposed on us from above. We all knew that we would not all be saved, because of our own choices. But we all preferred to preserve that choice rather than being dictated to from above.

Edited February 5, 2012 by zerinus

[mercyngrace]

I'll get back to you with references tonight, zerinus. I am in the car typing on my phone and I have to drive for the next six hours. I do acknowledge that most members probably see things your way. I think the scriptures tell a different story.

edited for swype errors

Edited February 6, 2012 by mercyngrace

[blackstrap]

Let's consider the choice we already made in the pre-mortal life. 1/3 ( or the third part) of the heavenly host chose Satan's plan.Why? Were they just the lunatic fringe? It was said by someone(GA?) that the separation was more like a third of a pie,going from outside to center. Christ speaks of the "noble and great ones".This implies that there were those who were not so noble and great,in other words,average Joes and Janes. I'm more with Zerinus on this. We will get the rewards that we want.That said,I don't discount that in time we may be able to want differently.

Edited February 5, 2012 by blackstrap

[zerinus]

We will get the rewards that we want.That said,I don't discount that in time we may be able to want differently.

I don't discount that either; but you are now venturing into beyond what God has revealed. It has been speculated that those occupying lower kingdoms will eventually be able to progress to higher kingdoms; but it has not been revealed that they can. The indications appear to be that they can progress within their respective kingdoms; but they cannot jump to a higher kingdom--worlds without end.

[mercyngrace]

Let's consider the choice we already made in the pre-mortal life. 1/3 ( or the third part) of the heavenly host chose Satan's plan.Why? Were they just the lunatic fringe? It was said by someone(GA?) that the separation was more like a third of a pie,going from outside to center. Christ speaks of the "noble and great ones".This implies that there were those who were not so noble and great,in other words,average Joes and Janes. I'm more with Zerinus on this. We will get the rewards that we want.That said,I don't discount that in time we may be able to want differently.

The underlined sentence is your money quote, blackstrap.

Remember what I wrote earlier - "people who already supported Christ and endorsed the Father's plan" - the third part who lost their first estate were not among this crowd. Everyone born on this earth already chose Christ once. They already expressed what they wanted.

Now, Zerinus says they wanted freedom alone. I disagree. But I'll put that in my response to him

[jadams_4242]

I used to believe that it would be more difficult to accept the Gospel in the spirit world than here on earth. However, it appears that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will accept the Gospel in the spirit world.

If you really think about it, if an atheist or a non-LDS, were to die and end up in spirit prison, and the Gospel was being taught to them by exalted beings (D&C 138), why would they reject it?

Does it also follow then that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will be in the Celestial Kingdom? Thoughts?

well for one thing its going to be a lot harder with the repentance process and proving yourself than if you hadnt rejected hear on earth;;;}

[mercyngrace]

That is not quite correct actually. The battle in the pre-existence was over the right of choice. We rejoiced over the prospect of choosing our own destiny in mortality, rather than it being imposed on us from above. We all knew that we would not all be saved, because of our own choices. But we all preferred to preserve that choice rather than being dictated to from above.

Okay - we know that we had the right of choice prior to mortality because a third part chose to follow Satan. Without agency, they would have been compelled. They weren't and neither were we. So the battle wasn't over whether we would have agency. We already had it. D&C 29 says that Satan drew forth a third part because of their agency - iow, they used their agency to follow him.

Satan did seek to destroy the agency of man (Moses 4:3) but he did this because he knew not the mind of God (Moses 4:6). His offer to redeem all souls was hollow as such cannot be accomplished in the absence of agency. No knowledge or opposition (essential for agency) means no accountability, or as Lehi put it, if there is no law, there is no sin. (2 Nephi 2:11) No redemption would have been necessary as we would have all been free from accountability, sinning in ignorance or without the capacity to sin having no alternatives from which to choose.

IMO, the war was over rebellion and pride, both rooted in ignorance.

[mercyngrace]

duplicate again - my posts are getting hung up in message board purgatory

Edited February 6, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Rob Osborn]

Okay - we know that we had the right of choice prior to mortality because a third part chose to follow Satan. Without agency, they would have been compelled. They weren't and neither were we. So the battle wasn't over whether we would have agency. We already had it. D&C 29 says that Satan drew forth a third part because of their agency - iow, they used their agency to follow him.

Satan did seek to destroy the agency of man (Moses 4:3) but he did this because he knew not the mind of God (Moses 4:6). His offer to redeem all souls was hollow as such cannot be accomplished in the absence of agency. No knowledge or opposition (essential for agency) means no accountability, or as Lehi put it, if there is no law, there is no sin. (2 Nephi 2:11) No redemption would have been necessary as we would have all been free from accountability, sinning in ignorance or without the capacity to sin having no alternatives from which to choose.

IMO, the war was over rebellion and pride, both rooted in ignorance.

I would like to add that I believe that the war was also specifically about Satan believing or wanting to justify sin or placement in society as natural and that we should be a law unto ourselves. Satan destroys our agencey when we give in to sin. He would love to reign over us in his kingdom- lead us down to destruction.

[zerinus]

Okay - we know that we had the right of choice prior to mortality because a third part chose to follow Satan. Without agency, they would have been compelled. They weren't and neither were we. So the battle wasn't over whether we would have agency. We already had it. D&C 29 says that Satan drew forth a third part because of their agency - iow, they used their agency to follow him. Satan did seek to destroy the agency of man (Moses 4:3) but he did this because he knew not the mind of God (Moses 4:6). His offer to redeem all souls was hollow as such cannot be accomplished in the absence of agency. No knowledge or opposition (essential for agency) means no accountability, or as Lehi put it, if there is no law, there is no sin. (2 Nephi 2:11) No redemption would have been necessary as we would have all been free from accountability, sinning in ignorance or without the capacity to sin having no alternatives from which to choose. IMO, the war was over rebellion and pride, both rooted in ignorance.

I think the mistake you are making is that you are assuming that just because all those who are born on earth sided with the Lord and against Satan, that they are all desirous for, or are capable of receiving the same reward, if not immediately then at some indeterminate future time. That simply is not a valid assumption. We know that there are some in this life who commit a sin that is so serious that it puts them back on the same level as those spirits who sinned in the pre-existence. They become "sons of perdition," and place themselves on the same status as the evil spirits who rebelled in the pre-existence. Some are capable of higher rewards than others. It is not a one-size-fit-all. And the assumption that given time everybody will eventually end up in the same place is not scriptural proposition. There is nothing that God has revealed that tells us that.

[thesometimesaint]

zerinus:

All are capable of the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. We choose what we really want. Further no righteous desire of our hearts will be denied us by God. It is we that deny ourselves the blessings.

The SoP's choose that fate. They will not repent, and they will continue to not repent in the next life. It is an act of their own will not Gods'.

[mercyngrace]

I think the mistake you are making is that you are assuming that just because all those who are born on earth sided with the Lord and against Satan, that they are all desirous for, or are capable of receiving the same reward, if not immediately then at some indeterminate future time. That simply is not a valid assumption. We know that there are some in this life who commit a sin that is so serious that it puts them back on the same level as those spirits who sinned in the pre-existence. They become "sons of perdition," and place themselves on the same status as the evil spirits who rebelled in the pre-existence. Some are capable of higher rewards than others. It is not a one-size-fit-all. And the assumption that given time everybody will eventually end up in the same place is not scriptural proposition. There is nothing that God has revealed that tells us that.

Have you ever been to the temple, zerinus?

Tell me, do we all end up in the same place?

[Duncan]

I have a relative that isn't a member and she has forbidden us on pain of death not to baptize her for the dead, so based on that I can't imagine her accepting the gospel in the next life

[zerinus]

Have you ever been to the temple, zerinus?

Tell me, do we all end up in the same place?

You should tell that to yourself. You are the one who is arguing that everyone will eventually end up in the celestial kingdom, at some point in time.

[zerinus]

I have a relative that isn't a member and she has forbidden us on pain of death not to baptize her for the dead, so based on that I can't imagine her accepting the gospel in the next life

What kind of "pain of death"? Is she going to step out of the grave and shoot you dead?

Edited February 6, 2012 by zerinus