Will Anyone Reject The Gospel In The Spirit World?

[guitarist]

I think I pretty much agree with you on this outline. I suppose my concern resides in the do our actions somehow qualify us in themselves, or are we qualified because we do what he says?

Our actions in and of themselves do not "qualify us", for we are imperfect beings trying to live a perfect law--by definition, we will always fall short. But the Lord has promised us that if we do all that we can (showing him by our actions the intent of our hearts), he will make up the rest, which through the infinite power of the atonement, he can.

The vision is of the telestial kingdom. Part of that group it says this about-

103 These are ^athey who are ^bliars, and ^csorcerers, and ^dadulterers, and ^ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

This group is cross-referenced here-

fearful, and the ^bunbelieving, and all ^cliars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the ^dwhoremonger, and the ^esorcerer, shall have their part in that ^flake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the ^gsecond death.

Only the sons of perdition shall partake of the second death which doesn't come until after the millennium. The vision of the telestial in section 76 thus leads me to believe that Joseph Smith was viewing the world in which we now live. It was not revealed to him until later that this earth is the telestial kingdom.

Except that this excerpt is a description of those who are Telestial World dwellers, not Sons of Perdition. Those who receive a Telestial Glory are those who are wicked in this life, but did not have the benefit of having had their eyes opened to the truth, and deny the Holy Ghost, as the Sons of Perdition had. As mentioned in DC 76:106, these will also go to the lake of fire and brimstone, and suffer the wrath of God until the fullness of times when Christ has subdued all of the enemies under his feet. After this state of suffering, they will inherit their Telestial Glory. As I mentioned before, the state of the Sons of Perdition are described in 76:30-38.

[Calm]

I have a relative that isn't a member and she has forbidden us on pain of death not to baptize her for the dead, so based on that I can't imagine her accepting the gospel in the next life

What is her reason?

[JAHS]

I used to believe that it would be more difficult to accept the Gospel in the spirit world than here on earth. However, it appears that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will accept the Gospel in the spirit world.

If you really think about it, if an atheist or a non-LDS, were to die and end up in spirit prison, and the Gospel was being taught to them by exalted beings (D&C 138), why would they reject it?

Does it also follow then that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will be in the Celestial Kingdom? Thoughts?

Here are a few quotes that might contradict the idea that most will accept the gospel:

Elder Melvin J. Ballard said,

"Do not let any of us imagine that we can go down to the grave not having overcome the corruptions of the flesh and then lose in the grave all our sins and evil tendencies. They will be with us. They will be with the spirit when separated from the body.So, men won't know any more when they are dead than when they are living, only they will have passed through the change called death. They will not understand the truths of the gospel only by the same process as they understand and comprehend them here. . . . When you die and go to the spirit world, you will labor for years, trying to convert individuals who will be taking their own course. Some of them will repent; some of them will listen. Another group will be rebellious, following their own will and notion, and that group will get smaller and smaller until every knee shall humbly bow and every tongue confess." (Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, 240, 245)

Elder Neal A. Maxwell made it clear that we continue to walk by faith in the postmortal spirit world:

"We do not now know precisely how God handles things in the spirit world so that life there is an extension of walking by faith. Death does not suddenly bestow upon the disbeliever full awareness of all reality, thereby obviating the need for any faith. Instead, what follows death is a continuum of the basic structure in mortality—until the Judgment Day, when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ (see Romans 14:11; Philippians 2:10; D&C 76:110). Until then, we 'walk by faith, not by sight' (2 Corinthians 5:7).

How will God ensure this condition in the spirit world? We do not know. Yet He has certainly so handled the second estate in relation to the first estate, hasn't He? The memories of the first estate are not accessible in the second estate. The spirit world will be so arranged that there will be no legitimate complaints later over the justice and mercy of God (see Mosiah 27:31; Alma 12:15).

The gospel, when preached in the spirit world, will bring the same responses as here: 'some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not' (Acts 28:24)."(Maxwell, That Ye May Believe, 94)

So even if Satan and his angels were not tempting people in the spirit world, we would still have to overcome our sinful nature and repent of our sins either in this life or the next.

We have also been taught that the Spirit world somehow exists on this earth with us, perhaps in another dimension.

Elder Harold B. Lee. said:

"Where is the spirit world? Is it away up in the heavens? That isn't what the scriptures and our brethren explain. They have told us the spirit world is right here round about us, and the only spirits who can live here are those who are assigned to fill their missions here on earth. This is the spirit world. And if our eyes could be opened we could see those who have departed from us—a father, mother, brother, a sister, a child." (Teachings of Harold B. Lee, 58; see also Discourses of Brigham Young, 376–77; Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 126)

And Brigham Young makes the connection between those in the spirit world and Satan and his evil spirits when he said,

"Those who have died without the Gospel are continually afflicted by those evil spirits, who say to them—'Do not go to hear that man Joseph Smith preach, or David Patten, or any of their associates, for they are deceivers.'" (Young, Journal of Discourses, 3:731)

Therefore, knowing that Satan and his spirits were cast down to this earth and that the spirit world is here on earth with us, we might conclude that Satan and his evil spirits must have access to both the physical world to tempt the living and the spirit world to tempt the dead, as suggested by Brigham Young. They function in their role as tempters to those trying to prove themselves worthy in both realms.

Edited February 6, 2012 by JAHS

[Calm]

PS It has nothing to do with force. If I approach my children with a $100 bill and offer that in return for cleaning their room, how many do you think will reject it? (If you say any number besides zero, you don't know my children!) We can all choose the right - the potential is there.

I offered one summer to my 12 year old son $50 a week allowance for what amounted to an hour a day work at most, mainly cleaning up the kitchen. He refused. He was content with his current state, there was nothing he wanted. Even if I had offered a hundred or a thousand, it wouldn't have changed his position. I tried putting it in more concrete terms such as a skiing package for the following winter or new Lego sets (the ultimate gift in my son's view). No go.

I remember one woman who was a believing LDS who said she would refuse exaltation, making the choice not to have spiritual children because she saw herself as incapable of watching them suffer....even temporarily.

The potential may be there, but I think it is huge assumption to assume that all will eventually desire the same level of progression. Potential doesn't equate to or even imply achievement.

I can see many people who have the potential for exaltation who might turn it down because they do not desire the responsibility and burdens that go along with it. If it was purely a matter of adding rewards or gaining in status, it would be different, but I believe God has made clear that exaltation---becoming one with him to the point of inheriting God's throne with all that implies---is something more than just a state of existence, it involves hard work and heavy burdens. One only has to read how the scriptures describe God's experience and feelings. If one assumes God's work does not cease, that after Judgment our existence isn't as one big happy reunited family, but rather that as we reach the point of oneness with the Lord, that we in turn assume part of the work to bring others to his side, then it becomes quite easy for me to picture that some will say "thank you, Lord, for the opportunity, but I would rather work in a less demanding capacity (or even not work at all for others....which is how I see those in the Telestial Kingdom responding). And such feelings may change over time for some as they gain in abilities in those areas they do desire growth in, but I see it as unlikely that it is an inherent process that would cause everyone to eventually desire all things of God or exaltation with all that goes along with it. It would be very nice if it did happen, but unless humans are very different in attitudes in the next life, I don't see it as likely.

[Calm]

We already valued exaltation. That's why we're here.

I think that is an unmerited assumption unless one assumes that exaltation is the ultimate destiny...which makes it circular I believe. When God presented the Plan, I do not see him saying there were only two options, reject it or accept exaltation. I think the appeal of the Plan was that it would allow us to choose what we wanted to be when we 'grew up', whether we wanted to be fully one with God and accept exaltation or live a lesser, but for us fully satisfying existence. It is likely we were much more aware of what the kingdoms were like, what levels of commitment would be required for each and if so, then those who looked on the Telestial Kingdom and said to themselves 'that's the life I want' would make the same choice to come to earth and go through mortality as those who jumped for joy at anticipation of exaltation. Not saying those choices couldn't change over time, just saying that it didn't have to be just the one choice of exaltation at the beginning if we knew there were other options at the end.

Edited February 6, 2012 by calmoriah

[zerinus]

Have you ever been to the temple, zerinus?

Tell me, do we all end up in the same place?

You should tell that to yourself. You are the one who is arguing that everyone will eventually end up in the celestial kingdom, at some point in time.

It looks like I had misunderstood your post, and gave it an incorrect reply. Yes, in the endowment ceremony we do all end up in the same place; but that is the endowment ceremony. We end up in the same place because we are all following the same rout (hopefully). That does not apply to those who don't. They choose a different path, and end up in a different place.

[Calm]

This isn't about pressure and I think that point seems to be missed generally every time this discussion comes up. It's not an infringement of agency to offer water to a man dying of thirst. At a certain point, even the proud will take a drink rather than die.

I think this is another unmerited assumption. Think of the example in the scriptures where all the Israelites had to do was look on the bronze serpent to live and yet many refused to do so. And I know of people who have been in extremely desperate situations and who have refused help because they couldn't stomach who the help came from, they'd rather continue to suffer than accept as they saw that acceptance as a defeat or a loss of personal integrity.

Satan surely knew as much as we did and understood the potential of God's Plan as well and yet he rejected it out of pride. I see no reason why this cannot happen at any step along the way to exaltation...and if one can completely reject God's Gift out of pride, I believe there are likely many other reasons where one might say "I am grateful for you giving me the opportunity, Lord, but I'd rather not take it" and thus choosing something besides exaltation.

add-on: If one is given the choice of accepting the water for oneself or giving it to one's children, we can all imagine someone choosing to die rather than taking a drink. One can imagine making a sacrifice for unselfish reasons, why not selfish reasons as well? When one holds on to one's pride as tightly as others hold on to their children, when one 'loves' pride or hate or sloth or other sins more than anything else in the world, then why is it so hard to imagine that kind of person disdaining to drink?

Edited February 6, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

You will of course, say that Satan chose to die of thirst. At which point we again return to the fact that he did not really know the great Giver.

Where do the scriptures teach this?

If he did not really know God, then how could his eternal condemnation or separation from God be just?

And if one assumes that since it would not be just, even Satan will have the chance to change and thus eventually achieve exaltation...my response would be that seems completely contradictory to what has been revealed so far, even if it is a hopeful and loving thought.

Edited February 6, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I think I pretty much agree with you on this outline. I suppose my concern resides in the do our actions somehow qualify us in themselves, or are we qualified because we do what he says?

I see our actions as preparing us to receive what God will give us but for now it is an ongoing process that is nonsense if one attempts to take a snapshot of any moment and say 'here at this time, I rate this and this and do not rate that or that'). Just as our life in the preexistence prepared us to take on mortality when it was given to us, but we did not achieve or qualify for it by our actions (save in our acceptance of his gift), so will our preparation for receiving exaltation involve preparing the ground (ourselves) to receive those gifts and endowments that will eventually grow into the attributes of exalted beings. That means continually pulling out the weeds among our behaviours through repentance (and some we manage to get by the roots but others the roots go deep and it takes a long time of pulling up all the plant we can get to in order for the roots to eventually atrophy from lack of nutrition and die.)

[mercyngrace]

Where do the scriptures teach this?

If he did not really know God, then how could his eternal condemnation or separation from God be just?

And if one assumes that since it would not be just, even Satan will have the chance to change and thus eventually achieve exaltation...my response would be that seems completely contradictory to what has been revealed so far, even if it is a hopeful and loving thought.

Moses 4:6

Satan did not know the mind of God. He clearly did not understand the plan or the purposes behind it or he would have known that it could not be brought to fruition by compulsion or the lack of opposition. In other words, He did not "know" God.

To "know" means more than to be acquainted with - consider how John writes that life eternal is to know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

edited to add: I think D&C 76 is plain that we can't know the fate of the sons of perdition unless we are partakers of the same. I'm good with that.

Edited February 6, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Calm]

Moses 4:6

Satan did not know the mind of God. He clearly did not understand the plan or the purposes behind it or he would have known that it could not be brought to fruition by compulsion or the lack of opposition. In other words, He did not "know" God.

To "know" means more than to be acquainted with - consider how John writes that life eternal is to know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

This is assuming he cared whether or not the plan would work as opposed to getting all the glory of God.

How do you explain his eternal condemnation if his knowledge was not sufficient enough to choose?

Only those who choose to become one with God will fully know God in the sense you mean, if I am understanding you. If there are some that do not choose to fully become one with God then this implies there will be those who refuse eternal life, refuse to fully know God and then it makes sense that there would be some who like Satan refuse to drink or at least refuse to drink deeply and fully of the living waters.

It seems to me you are assuming all will accept eternal life...and thus fully know God (as opposed to accepting him as Lord and Master) and then reasoning from there, but the scriptures do not demonstrate this is what will happen, quite the opposite, I believe.

add-on: Moses 4:6 speaks of Satan after he has rejected God and departed from the light. The scriptures teach that those who do so will have the knowledge that they once possessed taken from them. I am not sure we can assume that because Satan did not know the mind of God at that point, that he did not sufficiently know the mind of God at his point of rejection. Some things would have been beyond his comprehension lacking in the experience that mortality brings us and others possibly because he himself lacked an attribute and thus could not relate to God.

Edited February 6, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

The assumption here seems to be that knowledge will be sufficient to overcome pride, lack of ambition, fear of pain, etc., that knowing the end reward will be enough to make everyone desire it. I do not see this as an assumption supported by the scriptures and in fact, it seems to me to be contradicted by them.

[Rob Osborn]

It looks like I had misunderstood your post, and gave it an incorrect reply. Yes, in the endowment ceremony we do all end up in the same place; but that is the endowment ceremony. We end up in the same place because we are all following the same rout (hopefully). That does not apply to those who don't. They choose a different path, and end up in a different place.

The gospel only speaks of one path leading to one location. If not on that path one is lost and outside of the arms of mercy/salvation.

[Duncan]

What is her reason?

she really didn't give one, but she hasn't been terribly supportive of my Mum and her decision to join the Church back when-I have my theories. Someone asked about my "pain of death" remark and it was a joke!!! but she made it clear though she doesn't want the work done for her. my bro in law is going to do it anyways so we will see what happens with all that!

Edited February 6, 2012 by Duncan

[mercyngrace]

I think this is another unmerited assumption. Think of the example in the scriptures where all the Israelites had to do was look on the bronze serpent to live and yet many refused to do so. And I know of people who have been in extremely desperate situations and who have refused help because they couldn't stomach who the help came from, they'd rather continue to suffer than accept as they saw that acceptance as a defeat or a loss of personal integrity.

Apples and oranges. The Israelites were still operating under the veil,as are, we can presume most people on the earth.

Satan surely knew as much as we did and understood the potential of God's Plan as well and yet he rejected it out of pride. I see no reason why this cannot happen at any step along the way to exaltation...and if one can completely reject God's Gift out of pride, I believe there are likely many other reasons where one might say "I am grateful for you giving me the opportunity, Lord, but I'd rather not take it" and thus choosing something besides exaltation.

I am sure there are a multitude of reasonswhy people could/would reject God's offer. I just have serious doubt about their ability to hold out indefinitely in the face of His continued outreach.

add-on: If one is given the choice of accepting the water for oneself or giving it to one's children, we can all imagine someone choosing to die rather than taking a drink. One can imagine making a sacrifice for unselfish reasons, why not selfish reasons as well? When one holds on to one's pride as tightly as others hold on to their children, when one 'loves' pride or hate or sloth or other sins more than anything else in the world, then why is it so hard to imagine that kind of person disdaining to drink?

Again, apples and oranges. God isn't offering to satisfy only the thirst of some. He willingly offers water to all.

Why is it hard to imagine? Because I know the mighty work He was able to accomplish in my own soul.

[Calm]

I just have serious doubt about their ability to hold out indefinitely in the face of His continued outreach.

Then it would appear that we agree that your conclusion is based on an assumption of what people are capable of (much like mine is). Do you have any scriptures that support this idea that all will accept eternal life/exaltation from God?

And it doesn't really have to do with how much we know God, but how much God loves us in your view (if I understand right).

Again, apples and oranges. God isn't offering to satisfy only the thirst of some. He willingly offers water to all.

But this has nothing to do with the possibility of rejecting that water for selfish reasons. If rejecting for selfish reasons, it hardly matters that God is offering it to all, one likely only cares about what one has to give up if one accepts the gift of water from God.

Because I know the mighty work He was able to accomplish in my own soul.

Then why wasn't he able to accomplish this work in Satan's soul and all those who chose to reject God along with him?

Also along this line of thought, you still have not answered (or at least I have not read) how Satan's condemnation can be just. I would be interested in your thoughts on this.

Edited February 6, 2012 by calmoriah

[Grundelwalken]

I probably have it all wrong.

"every knew shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ"

That is true but even satan and the SoP will bow and confess -- they will just not accept. As others have stated, our kingdom will be the place we are wont to go as determined by our choices. Not all of God's children want to have the responsibility of a Celestial Glory. That is apparent by the actions they take here in mortality. Those who desire to live a Terrestrial life will be perfectly happy to have that life and will not bemoan the day they made that decision. The same is true for those in the Telestial World. Only those in Outer Darkness will moan and weep and wail because of their fate -- a fate they have chosen with eyes open.

God's plan is a Plan of Salvation, not a Plan of Elimination but He also will never force someone to take on responsibilities they do not wish to have. Thus the other kingdoms of glory. MW

[mercyngrace]

This is assuming he cared whether or not the plan would work as opposed to getting all the glory of God.

How do you explain his eternal condemnation if his knowledge was not sufficient enough to choose?

I don't explain it. As I pointed out earlier, I don't have access to his story. (D&C 76)

Only those who choose to become one with God will fully know God in the sense you mean, if I am understanding you. If there are some that do not choose to fully become one with God then this implies there will be those who refuse eternal life, refuse to fully know God and then it makes sense that there would be some who like Satan refuse to drink or at least refuse to drink deeply and fully of the living waters.

It seems to me you are assuming all will accept eternal life...and thus fully know God (as opposed to accepting him as Lord and Master) and then reasoning from there, but the scriptures do not demonstrate this is what will happen, quite the opposite, I believe.

I believe that hell will bring us to the point at which we are able to see clearly. Hell has a purpose. We saw it played out with Jonah and Alma. We see it played out in the heart of every true convert.

add-on: Moses 4:6 speaks of Satan after he has rejected God and departed from the light. The scriptures teach that those who do so will have the knowledge that they once possessed taken from them. I am not sure we can assume that because Satan did not know the mind of God at that point, that he did not sufficiently know the mind of God at his point of rejection. Some things would have been beyond his comprehension lacking in the experience that mortality brings us and others possibly because he himself lacked an attribute and thus could not relate to God.

As I explained above, the plan he proposed prior to being cast out, would not have worked so it is readily apparent even without Moses 4:6 editorializing the matter, that Satan completely failed to grasp what God was about. Satan is the quintessential prodigal's elder brother. Not only did he truly only care about the Father's 'wealth', he didn't really understand the Father's love or His plan to humbly educate a world full of prodigals.

Edited February 6, 2012 by mercyngrace

[mercyngrace]

Then it would appear that we agree that your conclusion is based on an assumption of what people are capable of (much like mine is). Do you have any scriptures that support this idea that all will accept eternal life/exaltation from God?

I don't think one exists that spells any end as a foregone concusion and I think that is rightly so for reasons pointed out in D&C 19.

Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

And it doesn't really have to do with how much we know God, but how much God loves us in your view (if I understand right).

I think knowing Him is what allows us to experience His love fully. Much like Alma, some of us must pass through hell, tasting the bitter opposite, before recognizing the value of the sweet. Or like the prodigal who basically wished his father dead, demanding his inheritance early, and getting as far away from home as possibly before realizing how good His father was and how much he desired to be back in his house.

But this has nothing to do with the possibility of rejecting that water for selfish reasons. If rejecting for selfish reasons, it hardly matters that God is offering it to all, one likely only cares about what one has to give up if one accepts the gift of water from God.

And once the buffetings of Satan have rid of us our wicked desires (that's what Paul said happens) and we are pronounced "spotless" (that's D&C 76)? What then? Can we then see the water more clearly? Would we beg to be made a hired man only to be proclaimed a son?

Then why wasn't he able to accomplish this work in Satan's soul and all those who chose to reject God along with him?

D&C 76. We don't know Satan's story.

Also along this line of thought, you still have not answered (or at least I have not read) how Satan's condemnation can be just. I would be interested in your thoughts on this.

How was Adam's and Eve's punishment just? They sinned with a degree of ignorance, too.

Perhaps all this isn't about "punishment" but about allowing the occurrence of events that need to happen for each of God's sons and daughter to experience a change of mind and heart (metanoeo) or turning toward godhood (shub).

[mercyngrace]

mercyngrace:

Two of my grandcildren just turned 4 years old. Would offering them $100 to clean their room mean anything to them? First we have to value what is being offered. Obviously not everyone does/will.

Ahh, the veil of childhood One day they will see things differently.

So will we all.

[Calm]

I don't think one exists that spells any end as a foregone concusion and I think that is rightly so for reasons pointed out in D&C 19.

Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

I think knowing Him is what allows us to experience His love fully. Much like Alma, some of us must pass through hell, tasting the bitter opposite, before recognizing the value of the sweet. Or like the prodigal who basically wished his father dead, demanding his inheritance early, and getting as far away from home as possibly before realizing how good His father was and how much he desired to be back in his house.

And once the buffetings of Satan have rid of us our wicked desires (that's what Paul said happens) and we are pronounced "spotless" (that's D&C 76)? What then? Can we then see the water more clearly?  Would we beg to be made a hired man only to be proclaimed a son?

D&C 76. We don't know Satan's story.

How was Adam's and Eve's punishment just?  They sinned with a degree of ignorance, too.

Perhaps all this isn't about "punishment" but about allowing the occurrence of events that need to happen for each of God's sons and daughter to experience a change of mind and heart (metanoeo) or turning toward godhood (shub).

Apples and oranges, .  Adam and Eve's punishment isn't eternal.  Satan's (not punishment, but his choice of how he wanted to live eternity) is (unless God has something else to say about it later on.

Edited February 6, 2012 by calmoriah

[mercyngrace]

Apples and oranges, . Adam and Eve's punishment isn't eternal. Satan's (not punishment, but his choice of how he wanted to live eternity) is (unless God has something else to say about it later on.

Don't mock my fruit basket!

There's a lot we just don't know...

[zerinus]

Moses 4:6

Satan did not know the mind of God. He clearly did not understand the plan or the purposes behind it or he would have known that it could not be brought to fruition by compulsion or the lack of opposition. In other words, He did not "know" God.

To "know" means more than to be acquainted with - consider how John writes that life eternal is to know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

The scripture in question says the following:

Moses 4:

5 And now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which I, the Lord God, had made.

6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

7 And he said unto the woman: Yea, hath God said—Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (And he spake by the mouth of the serpent.)

The meaning of “knew not the mind of God” is made clearer by the context. It means that he thought he was outwitting God; but what he didn’t know was that God was outwitting him. Since he had rebelled and had already become an enemy to God, he was no longer privy to God’s plans. Therefore he didn’t know that by attempting to deceive Eve he was in fact fulfilling God’s purpose. He was helping God’s plan forward, not obstructing it, contrary to what he had imagined. It is a common strategy in any war that you don’t let your enemy know your plans; and were possible you try to make your enemy’s plans self-defeating. If you know your enemy’s plan, but he doesn’t know yours, you can make his plan to work in against him, and in your favor. That is what that verse means. It doesn’t mean that Satan rebelled because he didn’t know any better, and that one day when he is better informed he will repent of his evil ways.

edited to add: I think D&C 76 is plain that we can't know the fate of the sons of perdition unless we are partakers of the same. I'm good with that.

That scripture is also not correctly understood. This is what it says:

D&C 76:

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

The meaning of that verse is that their end is so horrible that God will not fully reveal it to anyone. It doesn’t mean that they will get another chance some day. There are other scriptures which suggest that their torment may not last forever; but that is a different issue from them ending in the celestial kingdom some day.

[Calm]

Don't mock my fruit basket!

There's a lot we just don't know...

I would agree.

I can't edit my other post for some reason so have to add it here....

Even if all wicked desires such as pride and sloth are eliminated in our hearts, I see it as still possible to hold desires that do not entail exaltation, such as the woman who believed she would not desire to have spiritual children that I mentioned above. I can imagine quite a few people deciding that they were not eternal parent material.

Edited February 6, 2012 by calmoriah

[mercyngrace]

The scripture you provided indicates that the gates will be open all the day long, the opposite of your point, so I don't see how that relates to what you're saying. Also, really? Repentance is the first principle of the gospel. If anyone is going to come to the Celestial Kingdom, they'll need to follow the gospel. And they start that by repenting:

That's the point, guitarist. I was being facetious. I purposely posted a scriptures that proclaims that the gates toGod's kingdom are not shut. They remain open to all who will enter therein.

And yep - you are totally accurate! Repentance is absolutely necessary. I've never said anything to the contrary.