Will Anyone Reject The Gospel In The Spirit World?

[mercyngrace]

You should tell that to yourself. You are the one who is arguing that everyone will eventually end up in the celestial kingdom, at some point in time.

Go to a session.

Watch for people to be segregated out into various kingdoms.

Oh... wait...

[mercyngrace]

I have a relative that isn't a member and she has forbidden us on pain of death not to baptize her for the dead, so based on that I can't imagine her accepting the gospel in the next life

So I guess the question is: Is God's ability to love this woman to repentance bigger than your imagination?

[zerinus]

Go to a session.

Watch for people to be segregated out into various kingdoms.

Oh... wait...

Again, I am not really sure what you are getting at. The temple depicts man's journey in mortality form the Fall to exaltation. After the Fall, this world became a telestial environment in which man would experience sorrow and hardship to learn good and evil. In the Millennium the earth will be transformed into a terrestrial environment, again as a preparatory state for those who had passed the test of the previous arrangement, in order to prepare them for the next stage which is celestial. This is a different kind of thing from the one which will exist after the resurrection, when everyone will finally be assigned to the kind of environment which they are most suited to. The temple allegory is not intended to convey the idea that people of the territorial kingdom (after the resurrection) will eventually find their way to the celestial.

Edited February 6, 2012 by zerinus

[Duncan]

So I guess the question is: Is God's ability to love this woman to repentance bigger than your imagination?

yes of course! I just wonder about her reaction though and God can't or won't force her to be exalted or repent

[guitarist]

Go to a session.

Watch for people to be segregated out into various kingdoms.

Oh... wait...

In the very endowment session you're speaking about, it is said the session is to anoint all to those blessings, and that the realization of those blessings depends upon your faithfulness. Of course everyone would end up in the same place, the anointing [potential] applies equally to all, your faithfulness determines how much of that anointing becomes fulfilled. And as mentioned, you are given the exact blessings you want in life--no more, no less. The Lord encourages us all to be faithful to the end, because he wants us to come back into his presence, but he cannot force us to do so--we have to want to do it.

2 The same sociality that exists among us here will exist among us there...

...

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

We're going to be our same ol' selves after this life. That means those opposed to the church in this life will be opposed to it in the next. Those who were not "valiant in the testimony of Jesus", & those who rejected the testimony of Jesus in this life, but afterwards received it are given the Terrestrial Glory. And those who who receive not the Terrestrial Glory (receiving the testimony of Jesus), will receive the Telestial Glory. Even these, according to the scriptures above, will on bended knee confess the supremacy of the Lord who sits on the throne, and be servants of the Most High, yet they will not be able to visit the Celestial World, where God & Christ dwell. Doesn't leave much room for them to "advance" to the Celestial Kingdom, does it?

[Rob Osborn]

Again, I am not really sure what you are getting at. The temple depicts man's journey in mortality form the Fall to exaltation. After the Fall, this world became a telestial environment in which man would experience sorrow and hardship to learn good and evil. In the Millennium the earth will be transformed into a terrestrial environment, again as a preparatory state for those who had passed the test of the previous arrangement, in order to prepare them for the next stage which is celestial. This is a different kind of thing from the one which will exist after the resurrection, when everyone will finally be assigned to the kind of environment which they are most suited to. The temple allegory is not intended to convey the idea that people of the territorial kingdom (after the resurrection) will eventually find their way to the celestial.

The temple endowment presents to us the "plan of salvation". Personally, I think the temple clarifies the doctrines concerning the three kingdoms. We start our progression back to Heavenly father in the "telestial kingdom" which we are told is the earth upon which we now live. After showing obedience we go next to the "terrestrial kingdom" where we get further instruction and show further obedience. From there we go into the "celestial kingdom" or back into Heavenly Fathers kingdom. The temple shows us the most up to date plan of salvation. Now I must admit that nowhere outside of the temple are we taught this plan- not in manuals, from the pulpit, etc. Perhaps it has not been revealed to be taught yet outside the temple to the masses but the truth is there for those willing to pay attention and listen.

The temple shows us the true meaning of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms and also shows us that salvation only comes to those who go back to the celestial kingdom.

[Rob Osborn]

In the very endowment session you're speaking about, it is said the session is to anoint all to those blessings, and that the realization of those blessings depends upon your faithfulness. Of course everyone would end up in the same place, the anointing [potential] applies equally to all, your faithfulness determines how much of that anointing becomes fulfilled. And as mentioned, you are given the exact blessings you want in life--no more, no less. The Lord encourages us all to be faithful to the end, because he wants us to come back into his presence, but he cannot force us to do so--we have to want to do it.

We're going to be our same ol' selves after this life. That means those opposed to the church in this life will be opposed to it in the next. Those who were not "valiant in the testimony of Jesus", & those who rejected the testimony of Jesus in this life, but afterwards received it are given the Terrestrial Glory. And those who who receive not the Terrestrial Glory (receiving the testimony of Jesus), will receive the Telestial Glory. Even these, according to the scriptures above, will on bended knee confess the supremacy of the Lord who sits on the throne, and be servants of the Most High, yet they will not be able to visit the Celestial World, where God & Christ dwell. Doesn't leave much room for them to "advance" to the Celestial Kingdom, does it?

I think section 76 needs some clarification though because if we take it at face value, we would be saving the very sons of perdition into the telestial kingdom. Certainly they aren't saved so what is really meant by that? The only thing that makes sense is if the vision of the telestial kingdom is this very earth right now.

[guitarist]

What part of Section 76 says/implies that the Sons of Perdition would be saved into the Telestial Kingdom?

[guitarist]

I think D&C 76:30-38 are pretty straightforward about the Sons of Perdition:

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

[stemelbow]

I probably have it all wrong.

"every knew shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ"

I figured everyone will end up accepting the gospel in the realm of spirits. I don't think everyone would be saved to a degree of glory if not. I also figured there will be many in the different kingdoms. I certainly don't think all in the celestial kingdom will have been latter-day saints in their mortal lives, and perhaps many not even Christian during their lives.

My issue on this is, none of us deserve a degree of glory at all, I think. Something about the people would kill themselves just to get to the Telestial kingdom seems to tell me all are great beyond measure. What makes it hard is, if none of us truly deserve what we will eventually get eternally, why are there degrees? Is it all based on how much we each learn and grow and accept the love of God? None of us will reach perfection I doubt without exaltation. This is tough stuff to comprehend for me.

[Duncan]

I probably have it all wrong.

"every knew shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ"

I figured everyone will end up accepting the gospel in the realm of spirits. I don't think everyone would be saved to a degree of glory if not. I also figured there will be many in the different kingdoms. I certainly don't think all in the celestial kingdom will have been latter-day saints in their mortal lives, and perhaps many not even Christian during their lives.

My issue on this is, none of us deserve a degree of glory at all, I think. Something about the people would kill themselves just to get to the Telestial kingdom seems to tell me all are great beyond measure. What makes it hard is, if none of us truly deserve what we will eventually get eternally, why are there degrees? Is it all based on how much we each learn and grow and accept the love of God? None of us will reach perfection I doubt without exaltation. This is tough stuff to comprehend for me.

I interpreted that verse as saying that yes everyone will confess that Jesus is the Christ but that won't undo all our of unrepented sins, I just think that it will be a acknowledgement of who he really is but it won't get anyone anywhere in terms of exaltation

[mercyngrace]

In the very endowment session you're speaking about, it is said the session is to anoint all to those blessings, and that the realization of those blessings depends upon your faithfulness. Of course everyone would end up in the same place, the anointing [potential] applies equally to all, your faithfulness determines how much of that anointing becomes fulfilled. And as mentioned, you are given the exact blessings you want in life--no more, no less. The Lord encourages us all to be faithful to the end, because he wants us to come back into his presence, but he cannot force us to do so--we have to want to do it.

Why then are they baptized for the dead...

PS It has nothing to do with force. If I approach my children with a $100 bill and offer that in return for cleaning their room, how many do you think will reject it? (If you say any number besides zero, you don't know my children!) We can all choose the right - the potential is there.

Some theorize under the assumption that God's love is incapable of softening some of the hearts of spirits who already chose Him over Satan once.

I believe that God's mercy, compassion, perfect judgment, and love unfeigned is greater than that. If it can reach my heart, who am I to say it cannot reach another's?

We're going to be our same ol' selves after this life. That means those opposed to the church in this life will be opposed to it in the next. Those who were not "valiant in the testimony of Jesus", & those who rejected the testimony of Jesus in this life, but afterwards received it are given the Terrestrial Glory. And those who who receive not the Terrestrial Glory (receiving the testimony of Jesus), will receive the Telestial Glory. Even these, according to the scriptures above, will on bended knee confess the supremacy of the Lord who sits on the throne, and be servants of the Most High, yet they will not be able to visit the Celestial World, where God & Christ dwell. Doesn't leave much room for them to "advance" to the Celestial Kingdom, does it?

If we are our same ol' selves, none of us deserve a fulness of joy, huh? Must be some serious repenting going on in the spirit world. Maybe God judges our thoughts, intents, and what we would have done.

Edited February 6, 2012 by mercyngrace

[guitarist]

stemelbow,

As I mentioned in my last citation in D&C, even those in the Telestial Kingdom will bow their knees and confess that Jesus is the Christ. James chapter 2 verse 19 states "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." It is clear that simply believing is not enough, we have to have our actions reflect those beliefs. Jesus has atoned for our sins because justice dictates we are not worthy of the glory that our Father is desirous that we should have. But as a loving Father, he's provided the way to satisfy the demands of justice and provide mercy for us to come back into to Him if we do what we can of what is asked of us. For those of us who satisfy less than the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom, he didn't want it to be an all-or-nothing gig, so he's given us several kingdoms according to our desires, whether they be righteous or wicked. So it is ultimately us that chooses where we end up, because the Kingdom we end up in is the one that we were willing to receive.

[guitarist]

stemelbow,

As I mentioned in my last citation in D&C, even those in the Telestial Kingdom will bow their knees and confess that Jesus is the Christ. James chapter 2 verse 19 states "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." It is clear that simply believing is not enough, we have to have our actions reflect those beliefs. Jesus has atoned for our sins because justice dictates we are not worthy of the glory that our Father is desirous that we should have. But as a loving Father, he's provided the way to satisfy the demands of justice and provide mercy for us to come back into to Him if we do what we can of what is asked of us. For those of us who satisfy less than the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom, he didn't want it to be an all-or-nothing gig, so he's given us several kingdoms according to our desires, whether they be righteous or wicked. So it is ultimately us that chooses where we end up, because the Kingdom we end up in is the one that we were willing to receive.

[thesometimesaint]

mercyngrace:

Two of my grandcildren just turned 4 years old. Would offering them $100 to clean their room mean anything to them? First we have to value what is being offered. Obviously not everyone does/will.

Edited February 6, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[guitarist]

Why then are they baptized for the dead...

PS It has nothing to do with force. If I approach my children with a $100 bill and offer that in return for cleaning their room, how many do you think will reject it? (If you say any number besides zero, you don't know my children!) We can all choose the right - the potential is there.

Some theorize under the assumption that God's love is incapable of softening some of the hearts of spirits who already chose Him over Satan once.

I believe that God's mercy, compassion, perfect judgment, and love unfeigned is greater than that. If it can reach my heart, who am I to say it cannot reach another's?

If we are our same ol' selves, none of us deserve a fulness of joy, huh? Must be some serious repenting going on in the spirit world. Maybe God judges our thoughts, intents, and what we would have done.

They are baptized for the dead because they did not receive those ordinances in this life.

When I was going through my early teenage years, my dad would offer me $30 to cut the grass (a half acre yard, with a very steep hill in the middle). At first I was quite happy to oblige. Over time, as cutting the steep hill with a push mower wore me down, I decided I wanted a raise. My dad instead took back the $30 wage, and said that for my ungratefulness (since the rate I was given was the going rate from a local professional lawncare service), it would just simply be added to my normal chores. The point of me telling this story, is that people aren't always grateful for what they have/get.

I make no limitations on God's ability to love his children. In fact, far from it; his love for us was so great that he wanted to make sure that we were never pressured into anything, that everything we did was as a result of our own free will and choice. He uses gentle loving persuasion (sometimes even in unexpected forms) on his children, but sometimes that free will and choice just won't listen to our Father's pleas.

We know that there is plenty of repenting going on in the spirit world--missionaries preach to the spirits in prison. What are they doing that for, if not to call them to repentance?

[mercyngrace]

mercyngrace:

Two of my grandcildren just turned 4 years old. Would offering them $100 to clean their room mean anything to them? First we have to value what is being offered. Obviously not everyone does/will.

We already valued exaltation. That's why we're here.

[mercyngrace]

I make no limitations on God's ability to love his children. In fact, far from it; his love for us was so great that he wanted to make sure that we were never pressured into anything, that everything we did was as a result of our own free will and choice. He uses gentle loving persuasion (sometimes even in unexpected forms) on his children, but sometimes that free will and choice just won't listen to our Father's pleas.

This isn't about pressure and I think that point seems to be missed generally every time this discussion comes up. It's not an infringement of agency to offer water to a man dying of thirst. At a certain point, even the proud will take a drink rather than die. What they choose is how long they suffer thirst. Can someone theoretically choose death over the water. Sure. But will anyone? Anyone who already knows the taste of water? And sees the goodness and charity of the water giver? Is anyone capable of holding out forever with the water there in front of them and the giver lovingly intreating them to partake?

You will of course, say that Satan chose to die of thirst. At which point we again return to the fact that he did not really know the great Giver.

But we will. With perfect clarity. Full accountability can only come with full knowledge.

We know that there is plenty of repenting going on in the spirit world--missionaries preach to the spirits in prison. What are they doing that for, if not to call them to repentance?

Why bother repenting if the gates are locked shut from the other side?

(This is a fun discussion but I have to go to work for a bit - I'll check back tonight though :wave: )

[stemelbow]

I interpreted that verse as saying that yes everyone will confess that Jesus is the Christ but that won't undo all our of unrepented sins, I just think that it will be a acknowledgement of who he really is but it won't get anyone anywhere in terms of exaltation

This begs a question for me, so help me out if you will. It makes me wonder what effect, eternally, repenting of sin has? In truth to repent is to change your heart and turn away forever from your sins. That is just so tough to do. In another vain, I've often heard people say once one repents there is no need to worry about that sin again. Full, genuine repentance is just a big big step and process. In some ways I fear we take it far too seriously. In others, perhaps we take it not far enough?

Let's say I look upon a woman to lust after her. A day later I realize my error and I seek to correct my thoughts and I seek forgiveness, sincerely. A week or so goes by without incident. Am I further along the road to perfection after this week? Do I take two steps back if I redo that sin? And if I repeat, and then i repent again, did anything significantly change within me?

Or is repentance just a requirement God has set so we can qualify for that which He gives us?

Another question I've meant to ask of people, is an acknowledgement of the LORD and truth also a declaration of repentance in the day of all knees shall bow and tongues confess? If repentance really is turning away from sin, then isn't that accomplished at the last hour, essentially?

[stemelbow]

stemelbow,

As I mentioned in my last citation in D&C, even those in the Telestial Kingdom will bow their knees and confess that Jesus is the Christ. James chapter 2 verse 19 states "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." It is clear that simply believing is not enough, we have to have our actions reflect those beliefs. Jesus has atoned for our sins because justice dictates we are not worthy of the glory that our Father is desirous that we should have. But as a loving Father, he's provided the way to satisfy the demands of justice and provide mercy for us to come back into to Him if we do what we can of what is asked of us. For those of us who satisfy less than the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom, he didn't want it to be an all-or-nothing gig, so he's given us several kingdoms according to our desires, whether they be righteous or wicked. So it is ultimately us that chooses where we end up, because the Kingdom we end up in is the one that we were willing to receive.

I think I pretty much agree with you on this outline. I suppose my concern resides in the do our actions somehow qualify us in themselves, or are we qualified because we do what he says?

[Rob Osborn]

What part of Section 76 says/implies that the Sons of Perdition would be saved into the Telestial Kingdom?

The vision is of the telestial kingdom. Part of that group it says this about-

103 These are ^athey who are ^bliars, and ^csorcerers, and ^dadulterers, and ^ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

This group is cross-referenced here-

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the ^afearful, and the ^bunbelieving, and all ^cliars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the ^dwhoremonger, and the ^esorcerer, shall have their part in that ^flake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the ^gsecond death.

Only the sons of perdition shall partake of the second death which doesn't come until after the millennium. The vision of the telestial in section 76 thus leads me to believe that Joseph Smith was viewing the world in which we now live. It was not revealed to him until later that this earth is the telestial kingdom.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

I probably have it all wrong.

"every knew shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ"

I figured everyone will end up accepting the gospel in the realm of spirits. I don't think everyone would be saved to a degree of glory if not. I also figured there will be many in the different kingdoms. I certainly don't think all in the celestial kingdom will have been latter-day saints in their mortal lives, and perhaps many not even Christian during their lives.

My issue on this is, none of us deserve a degree of glory at all, I think. Something about the people would kill themselves just to get to the Telestial kingdom seems to tell me all are great beyond measure. What makes it hard is, if none of us truly deserve what we will eventually get eternally, why are there degrees? Is it all based on how much we each learn and grow and accept the love of God? None of us will reach perfection I doubt without exaltation. This is tough stuff to comprehend for me.

We will have the millennium to become perfect. None of us in our mortal lives in this kingdom now merit celestial glory. That is why we advance from this- the telestial kingdom into the terrestrial kingdom in the millennium. It is there that Christ perfects the kingdom (us) and presents it to the Father "spotless" at the end of the millennium.

[guitarist]

This isn't about pressure and I think that point seems to be missed generally every time this discussion comes up. It's not an infringement of agency to offer water to a man dying of thirst. At a certain point, even the proud will take a drink rather than die. What they choose is how long they suffer thirst. Can someone theoretically choose death over the water. Sure. But will anyone? Anyone who already knows the taste of water? And sees the goodness and charity of the water giver? Is anyone capable of holding out forever with the water there in front of them and the giver lovingly intreating them to partake?

You will of course, say that Satan chose to die of thirst. At which point we again return to the fact that he did not really know the great Giver.

But we will. With perfect clarity. Full accountability can only come with full knowledge.

I think the problem is, if I may change the analogy from water to food, is that people aren't always even aware that they're starving (or thirsty, as the original analogy goes). As strange as it sounds, after the first few days of hunger, quite often you don't even feel hungry anymore, despite the growing deficiency in nutrients. And eating like normal once you've been starving for several days can actually make you sick--you have to ease your way back into eating again. Now to push the analogy further, what about the population of anorexics & bulimics who actively refuse food to their detriment? They look in the same mirror that we do, but they are absolutely convinced that they are too fat to be healthy/beautiful, even though we see them as skinny as a rail. Likewise, there are some who don't value the gospel the way that we do, just as in like manner that there are those out there who do not value food as we do. Can they be helped? Yes, but they must want it first.

Why bother repenting if the gates are locked shut from the other side?

The scripture you provided indicates that the gates will be open all the day long, the opposite of your point, so I don't see how that relates to what you're saying. Also, really? Repentance is the first principle of the gospel. If anyone is going to come to the Celestial Kingdom, they'll need to follow the gospel. And they start that by repenting:

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

[thesometimesaint]

mercyngrace:

Aren't you forgetting the Veil of Forgetfullness that we all get? Without such this life wouldn't be a fair test.

As I rapidly approach old age that veil is getting closer and closer. Now where did it put those keys?

Edited February 6, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Rob Osborn]

This begs a question for me, so help me out if you will. It makes me wonder what effect, eternally, repenting of sin has? In truth to repent is to change your heart and turn away forever from your sins. That is just so tough to do. In another vain, I've often heard people say once one repents there is no need to worry about that sin again. Full, genuine repentance is just a big big step and process. In some ways I fear we take it far too seriously. In others, perhaps we take it not far enough?

Let's say I look upon a woman to lust after her. A day later I realize my error and I seek to correct my thoughts and I seek forgiveness, sincerely. A week or so goes by without incident. Am I further along the road to perfection after this week? Do I take two steps back if I redo that sin? And if I repeat, and then i repent again, did anything significantly change within me?

Or is repentance just a requirement God has set so we can qualify for that which He gives us?

Another question I've meant to ask of people, is an acknowledgement of the LORD and truth also a declaration of repentance in the day of all knees shall bow and tongues confess? If repentance really is turning away from sin, then isn't that accomplished at the last hour, essentially?

Repentance is only realized when one repents, has faith in Jesus Christ, and is baptized for the remission of sins. if one is already baprized they must repent and do it no more all the while continuing to strive to keep the commandments. A mere aknowledgement of the Lord and truth will do nothing for your eternal soul without the necessary ordinances and obedience to them.