How Do Lds View Self Love?

[Mudcat]

From Ephesians 5 version NASB

²⁵ Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, ²⁶ so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, ²⁷ that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. ²⁸ So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

Hi all,

I had a bit of life changing epiphany the other day that has really impacted my marriage, as well as my relation to other people. To give you some background. I grew up in one of those homes that didn't dole out positive reinforcement very often. In example, if one took it upon themselves to clean the house, but managed to leave a spoon out on the counter. Criticism for leaving the spoon out would follow.

I suppose this sort of thing sort of shaped my view that unless my efforts were perfect then they were sub par. My best is usually far from perfect and in general this view has left me angry, jealous and frustrated in an unnecessary way throughtout my life. In short my love of self has not been very high.. you might term it low self esteem.

I have internalized these emotions when I could. I always knew something wasn't quite right with me but didn't know how to put finger on it, so I would try to "mask" my internal struggles from others.

Recently, a few weeks back. I had an emotional crisis, perhaps even what you might call an emotional breakdown... anxiety, emotional pain, irrational thoughts, what have you. It was the worst thing I had been through emotionally and it went on for about a week.

Likely it was the culmination of a number of events that have occured in the last year or so which reached their crescendo when the last emotional crisis, that crisis figuratively serving as the straw that broke the camels back. I prayed fervently through the episode and managed to get through it.

The epiphany that I reached, was simply that I had spent my entire life defining myself by what I could not be or could not accomplish. I realized that rather than define myself by what I couldn't do, I could define myself by what I could do. I realized that no one expected me to be perfect and that my best was good enough.

In my marriage I realized that many of our relational struggles were simply because I thought I wasn't good enough for my wife. However, she has never communicated that. I have always been exactly what she wanted.

Somehow this shift in views, has increased how much I love myself exponentially. What amazes me is how this view has increased my ability to love others. It's not as though I never loved my wife, kids, family, friends and so forth... it is just that I now see how much they have loved me throughout time and it makes me love them all the more. It's been a life changing event for sure, and primarily I wanted to share it.

However, as I examine what has gone on with me personally it has brought to mind a question.

---------------------------------------------

It seems to me as though there is a direct relationship between self love and love of others.

Do you think it is possible to love someone more than you love yourself?

Do you think Christ loves the Church more than himself, as much as himself or less than himself?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[LeSellers]

We frequently have talks and lessons on this very subject. You cannot love someone else if you do not love yourself. I believe this to be a spiritual and eternal truth.

However, self-love is easily deformed into ego-centrism, and that is not a good thing. So, as with much in life, balance is the key.

Lehi

Edited December 27, 2011 by LeSellers

[stemelbow]

Thanks for sharing your story that was quite a delightful read.

I think Christ exemplified, perfectly, how one can love others more than self. And i dont' think its a far cry to think we ought to follow His lead. That's not to say there shall not be a love for self. Its more to say that our business ought to be more about giving to others then giving to self.

[thesometimesaint]

Mudcat:

It takes the right balance of love for self, and love for others that allows us to love our neighbor(spouce) as ourselves.

[Duncan]

Having been through what you describe a few times it was an extremely tough haul and I feel for you! I will keep you in my prayers!

Edited December 27, 2011 by Duncan

[MorningStar]

It's important to love yourself, knowing you are God's child, but also remembering that he gave you every blessing. I remind myself that I don't have to be perfect. I love my family and friends so much despite their imperfections and I know they feel the same about me. They don't expect me to be perfect. I'm glad you had a breakthrough!

[Rivers]

The OP reminded me about the scripture in the Book of Mormon that states that Satan wants others to be miserable because he himself is miserable. Is this because he doesn't love himself and can't love other people. I sometimes find myself doing the same thing that Satan does. If I get a a bad score on a test, I'll have pleasure in seeing somebody else get a bad score and I'm not happy for those who did get a good score. If I were to do a better job at loving myself, would I be able to do better in being happy for other people even when I am experiencing disappointments?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

From Ephesians 5 version NASB

²⁵ Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, ²⁶ so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, ²⁷ that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. ²⁸ So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

Hi all,

I had a bit of life changing epiphany the other day that has really impacted my marriage, as well as my relation to other people. To give you some background. I grew up in one of those homes that didn't dole out positive reinforcement very often. In example, if one took it upon themselves to clean the house, but managed to leave a spoon out on the counter. Criticism for leaving the spoon out would follow.

I suppose this sort of thing sort of shaped my view that unless my efforts were perfect then they were sub par. My best is usually far from perfect and in general this view has left me angry, jealous and frustrated in an unnecessary way throughtout my life. In short my love of self has not been very high.. you might term it low self esteem.

I have internalized these emotions when I could. I always knew something wasn't quite right with me but didn't know how to put finger on it, so I would try to "mask" my internal struggles from others.

Recently, a few weeks back. I had an emotional crisis, perhaps even what you might call an emotional breakdown... anxiety, emotional pain, irrational thoughts, what have you. It was the worst thing I had been through emotionally and it went on for about a week.

Likely it was the culmination of a number of events that have occured in the last year or so which reached their crescendo when the last emotional crisis, that crisis figuratively serving as the straw that broke the camels back. I prayed fervently through the episode and managed to get through it.

The epiphany that I reached, was simply that I had spent my entire life defining myself by what I could not be or could not accomplish. I realized that rather than define myself by what I couldn't do, I could define myself by what I could do. I realized that no one expected me to be perfect and that my best was good enough.

In my marriage I realized that many of our relational struggles were simply because I thought I wasn't good enough for my wife. However, she has never communicated that. I have always been exactly what she wanted.

Somehow this shift in views, has increased how much I love myself exponentially. What amazes me is how this view has increased my ability to love others. It's not as though I never loved my wife, kids, family, friends and so forth... it is just that I now see how much they have loved me throughout time and it makes me love them all the more. It's been a life changing event for sure, and primarily I wanted to share it.

However, as I examine what has gone on with me personally it has brought to mind a question.

---------------------------------------------

It seems to me as though there is a direct relationship between self love and love of others.

Do you think it is possible to love someone more than you love yourself?

Do you think Christ loves the Church more than himself, as much as himself or less than himself?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

"Killing me softly with his words, killing me softy"...I thought you were describing me. Brother...I FEEL YOUR PAIN...and rejoice that you got through it. My greatest exercise program is beating up on myself.

[Kenngo1969]

As others have said, a balance needs to be struck. So many parents today rear their children to believe they can do no wrong, and as a result, the children grow up with little (if any) empathy for their fellow human beings who struggle. This leads to egocentrism, narcissism, and possibly sociopathy. Who cleans up the mess left by someone who cannot see past his own nose as a result of upbringing? Schools, law enforcement agencies, courts, social service agencies, juvenile detention facilities, and, eventually (if left unchecked) prisons. By contrast, God, my family, and my friends love me, not because I can do no wrong (they know all too well that the opposite is true) but precisely because they're my family and friends. (It's said that a friend is someone who knows all about you ... and loves you anyway. God is the epitome of that: He knows us better than anyone else can.)

Edited December 27, 2011 by Kenngo1969

[CV75]

It seems to me as though there is a direct relationship between self love and love of others.

Do you think it is possible to love someone more than you love yourself?

Do you think Christ loves the Church more than himself, as much as himself or less than himself?

Thank you for sharing your witness of how God's love got you through a very difficult time.

I think the kind of love to have for ourselves is the kind that reflects God’s love for us. I believe it is sent, perceived and received by the Light of Christ. As we respond to it, the Holy Ghost may prompt further action and reveal the varied applications of this divine love so that it is shared with others in increasingly more godly ways. The basis of this kind of love is not anything we do, but is what we are, beloved children of God. We love Him, and we love at all, because He loved us first.

I think it is possible to love someone more than you love yourself, but only once you become selfless. This selflessness is only in relation to the pull of the fallen world. The world no longer defines you, but heaven does. So at this point, your identity is no longer that of an isolated person, but a person that is in the company of God. This is the point where we sacrifice that which is we once considered (but no longer consider) ours; it is only the constraints of this world that call it ours to give. So we give it (sacrifice it) and love others more than we loved our former selves. We give up that which is ours of this world for the purpose of the new world we have discovered (heaven). And it seems like no sacrifice at all, and we find that have more to give away. We love as much as we love our new, selfless identity.

I think in this sense Christ loves us more than Himself. He gave up His mortal life and everything He could have enjoyed in this world, and He gave up His body and spirit to suffer eternal punishment as the propitiation for our mortal sins. He is Selfless. So He loves us as He loves “Himselfless”, or as He loves the Father, because He is one with the Father and wants us to be one with Him, joint-heirs with Him. He cannot love us less than that, or He would not be Selfless and have been able to accomplish what He did.

The interesting thing to me about selflessness is that people are still selves, but with an expanded and united wherewithal that they did not enjoy as less spiritual people.

[mfbukowski]

Thank you for sharing your witness of how God's love got you through a very difficult time.

I think the kind of love to have for ourselves is the kind that reflects God’s love for us. I believe it is sent, perceived and received by the Light of Christ. As we respond to it, the Holy Ghost may prompt further action and reveal the varied applications of this divine love so that it is shared with others in increasingly more godly ways. The basis of this kind of love is not anything we do, but is what we are, beloved children of God. We love Him, and we love at all, because He loved us first.

I think it is possible to love someone more than you love yourself, but only once you become selfless. This selflessness is only in relation to the pull of the fallen world. The world no longer defines you, but heaven does. So at this point, your identity is no longer that of an isolated person, but a person that is in the company of God. This is the point where we sacrifice that which is we once considered (but no longer consider) ours; it is only the constraints of this world that call it ours to give. So we give it (sacrifice it) and love others more than we loved our former selves. We give up that which is ours of this world for the purpose of the new world we have discovered (heaven). And it seems like no sacrifice at all, and we find that have more to give away. We love as much as we love our new, selfless identity.

I think in this sense Christ loves us more than Himself. He gave up His mortal life and everything He could have enjoyed in this world, and He gave up His body and spirit to suffer eternal punishment as the propitiation for our mortal sins. He is Selfless. So He loves us as He loves “Himselfless”, or as He loves the Father, because He is one with the Father and wants us to be one with Him, joint-heirs with Him. He cannot love us less than that, or He would not be Selfless and have been able to accomplish what He did.

The interesting thing to me about selflessness is that people are still selves, but with an expanded and united wherewithal that they did not enjoy as less spiritual people.

Dang it, there you go getting it exactly right again!

[mfbukowski]

Mudcat!

Wow- good to see you back and glad to hear you are doing better! I'm praying for you bro!

Self-love (esteem) is incredibly important to us!

It seems to me as though there is a direct relationship between self love and love of others.

Do you think it is possible to love someone more than you love yourself?

I do, and I think you do also. I would die to save my wife or kids in a second without even thinking about it.

Do you think Christ loves the Church more than himself, as much as himself or less than himself?

More. He died for us.

Thanks for your story. If you don't mind some Mormon propaganda, I strongly suggest you listen to this. It is about the very best talk on the atonement that I have ever heard, bar none, and I think that you will totally agree with it after it's done.

It directly takes on the whole "perfectionism" thing and being saved by grace vs works in a way I had never heard before- the overall idea is that there is NOTHING we can do to "merit" salvation- it is a pure gift of grace, and that the function of repentance is "practice" to get us to live the life Christ wants us as Christians to live- to live in a more heavenly way. I think you will even like the theology here.

Wishing you all the best- hang in there- I have been through some really nasty times myself and have some understanding for what you may be feeling.

Brad Wilcox, BYU Devotional, 2009

http://media.byub.org/mp3/ew/2009/8/ew2009818-3882.mp3

Edited December 27, 2011 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

Dang it, there you go getting it exactly right again!

Don't worry, i offset it on the oxycontin thread!

[Mudcat]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Like Bukowski, I thought CV had a wonderful post. I think my thoughts may go against the grain on this, so feel free to offer criticism. I stated to good friend that PMd me about the thread, that I feel like a kid on roller skates for the first time... so in a since, my ideas are nonformalized but I am drawing some conclusions.

I do, and I think you do also. I would die to save my wife or kids in a second without even thinking about it.

Certainly, I would do the same.. or at least I think the courage to do so is within me.

But I am questioning if such an act actually means I love someone more than I love myself. I have always thought that even "selfless" acts were self motivated. I would die or be harmed for my family, perhaps even strangers to prevent their own demise or harm. Though I may die or be harmed, what I want is to keep them from death or harming. And I see such a trade off of my harm or death as subordinate to their harm or death.

That being said, this notion that I would do something like that, is actually one of things I love about myself.. that I would do such a thing to save someone else.

More. He died for us.

I am on the fence on this. I think perhaps he loves us as much as himself. It sounds odd saying it, but we often think of self love in terms of an ego complex.

I think Christ had an enormous ego. Any man that would say something like he said in John 14:6 and 7 must have one.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

However Christs actions certainly met his claims of himself.

As Lehi suggested, self love could be convoluted into self infatuation, but that isn't what I am suggesting when I say self love, I mean it in a true sense.

I think it might be possible that our capacity to love self is much like one side of a balance. If a person loves themselves 200lbs. then they can love others up to 200lbs. If they love themself a 1000 then a 1000 for others.

Thanks for your story. If you don't mind some Mormon propaganda, I strongly suggest you listen to this. It is about the very best talk on the atonement that I have ever heard, bar none, and I think that you will totally agree with it after it's done.

I haven't listened to it all yet, but thanks for the link.

I suppose I have always looked at salvation as ladder we climbed towards the top and even though we were incapable of climbing all the rungs on our own, Christ willingly made up the difference and pulled us/helped us up the rest of the way. I suppose one of the changes in my perspective, as it relates to my relationship with God, is that I used to feel guilty about not being good enough to do it myself. Now, I realize that even though my best efforts aren't sufficient to reach the top, they are good enough for Christ and my sense of guilt has been misappropriated.

Hope you had a great Christmas Bukowski.

Regards,

Mudcat

[oats]

This made me pause and think for a little bit. I am certain the questions you asked will linger in my mind for a little bit and perhaps in a month or two I'll resurrect this thread with some real insight! As to how LDS understand self love... well, I can't recall any defined teachings about the principle in official sources but I do think my own view has been highly influenced by the LDS church.

Upcoming unstructured rant warning ahead.

I was having a discussion once with a church leader that caused me to reflect on a related topic. I thought about how, over the years, my motivations and priorities had changed, not only in theory, but in action. How compassionate reactions towards others had become more instinctive and more immediate than they had been. How I often would notice or anticipate the needs of others and contribute aid to lift a burden or provide support and encouragement. I loved myself more when I realized these things. I think that love stemmed from gaining a trust in my own motivations, behaviour and inclination to become more Christlike. It was the person who I was talking to that pointed these things to me initially. Having an outside confirmation of things I hoped for, from a person whose judgment I trusted, was an invaluable aid and assurance.

A view on self love can obviously be coloured by the way someone understands love, or by their own motivations and priorities. It surely is not the same across the board. Some people love themselves because they have the capacity to amass wealth, or because they have the capacity to destroy others, or because they love their image. Some people have the natural gift to love themself oblivious to who they are or how they act. Others do it more conscientiously.

I want to be like Christ and I try hard to let my actions be guided by the same spirit that directed His actions. When I realize that my actions begin to reflect Christlike characteristics and motivations - I love myself a little more. I imagine it is similar with someone who has been trained to love wealth and greed. They love themselves more when they become a more capable vessel in the pursuit of those aims.

To answer your first question, to the extent that personal experience allows, I think our awareness of ourselves and others affects how much we can love others. Besides the general kindness and love I feel towards anyone who exudes some trace of humanity or awareness I feel a stronger love towards the people who influence me through their wisdom, their good examples, their bad examples and their acts of kindness. I also feel a special love for people who I recognize are in tough situations which I have previously experienced. The funny thing is that the amount of love I feel towards them seems to hinge on how much they cause me to reflect on my own actions, or by the growth they cause in my own person. My personal experience is that how much I love myself is commensurate with the love I have for others who share with me anything that promotes goodness, intentionally or not.

As for the second question... I wish I knew the mind of Christ! Once again based on personal experience, and stretching correlated lds doctrine, I like to think that God can continue to grow in intelligence. In Moses 1 God says, "And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things.... And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose" I can't help but think that we have some hand in the growth of God, somehow, and that some of the reason He loves the church is because the Church helps His capacity to love grow, for whatever purpose. We like to think in terms of starts and finishes, firsts and lasts because such things are easier to comprehend, and perhaps that is all we can comprehend. But when it comes to who loved who first or who loves who more, I don't think things are so cut and dry. Mind you, if that's the case, I have no clue how they really are

[oats]

Oh, had I read your last post before I wrote that long post it would have saved you from my lack of conciseness

That being said, this notion that I would do something like that, is actually one of things I love about myself.. that I would do such a thing to save someone else.

I think my thoughts on this have moved along the same lines. Not sure what it will lead to.

I am on the fence on this. I think perhaps he loves us as much as himself. It sounds odd saying it, but we often think of self love in terms of an ego complex... As Lehi suggested, self love could be convoluted into self infatuation, but that isn't what I am suggesting when I say self love, I mean it in a true sense.

A thought that came to mind was the 'holy envy' quote by Krister Stendahl. I feel confidant saying that there is a 'holy' or godly type of self love.

I think it might be possible that our capacity to love self is much like one side of a balance. If a person loves themselves 200lbs. then they can love others up to 200lbs. If they love themself a 1000 then a 1000 for others.

I think how we consciously love could definitely be imagined or measured by a similar concept. We make an effort to pass on what we know and love. Children reap the rewards of loving parents as their parents facilitate a path for their children to learn what the parents cherish. The idea of standing on the shoulders of giants comes to mind, but so does the idea of a person providing lift beyond their level by slinging us upward. Though I'm not sure how much more loving a person today is compared to a person 3000 years ago, I'm sure that in some ways we are collectively more conscientious, and thus more in power, of how we chose to act and grow our love for one another. But maybe we might lack the practice loving, and thus are seeing a mental ascent unaccompanied by real life experience. I am confidant that our developed capacity to love, aside from the compulsive giving and caring that comes as a natural unearned gift, is correlated with our interactions with others. I feel like the conscientious and earned growth, beyond what we can achieve by following the examples around us, is found in our relationship with Christ. To distinguish the sense of 'earned' and 'unearned' capacity to love think of economies whose growth is based on the exploit of natural resources versus economies whose growth comes from innovation, knowledge and technology. The growth of one feels earned and genuine while the other feels unearned and lucky.

I suppose one of the changes in my perspective, as it relates to my relationship with God, is that I used to feel guilty about not being good enough to do it myself. Now, I realize that even though my best efforts aren't sufficient to reach the top, they are good enough for Christ and my sense of guilt has been misappropriated.

It's always fun to come to terms with reality after a bit of a wrestling match.

Edited December 28, 2011 by oats

[Cold Steel]

...a few weeks back, I had an emotional crisis, perhaps even what you might call an emotional breakdown ... It seems to me as though there is a direct relationship between self love and love of others.

Hi, Mudcat, and I'm sorry to hear about your problems, and I hope you're getting things under control. I'm not sure of where you're coming from, but how do you define "love" in the context you mentioned? You asked specifically:

Do you think it is possible to love someone more than you love yourself?

Absolutely. In fact, if you don't love someone more than yourself, I think you need to reevaluate your relationships. I mean, isn't there someone in your life that you wouldn't happily throw yourself in front of a bullet for? Many of those who knew Joseph Smith and knew he was facing mortal danger in Carthage, had to be physically restrained in order not to follow him. And he had to himself restrain the Nauvoo Legion. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

We know more about Joseph Smith than any of the ancient prophets. One on the many intimate friends of prophet said he would "shed tears when hearing some specially fine vocal music, particularly old-fashioned songs and ballads. With such noble characteristics," she said, "it is not strange that he was so intensely beloved." One LDS scholar did a study of Smith's early life and associates and found it remarkable that nearly all of them considered themselves to be "intimate," "dear" or "close" friends of the prophet. To Heber Kimball, those serving in the First Presidency and the rest of the church were family: “I love these men, God knows I do, better than I ever loved a woman; and I would not give a damn for a man that does not love them better than they love women!” Many LDS who study the prophet acquire a deep love of the man, just as many acquire a love of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and others whom they study.

And how many animals have given their lives for their human companions, and vice versa! I recall the story of a cat that risked its own life to foil an intruder. It carefully waited until the intruder was going up the stairs in the dark before launching itself in an acrimonious rage that surprised and delighted its owner. Afterwards, it settled down with its owner to relax while the attacker recuperated on his own at the local hospital.

Do you think Christ loves the Church more than himself, as much as himself or less than himself?

Not only must we define "love," but the term "church" as well. Certainly the Lord loves the church as the metaphor of the Master and the Brides demonstrates. But the Lord loves all those who serve Him. We may have a differing view of the word "church," but it's clear that the Lord will protect and nurture His church in the days of tribulation which will come.

[CV75]

But I am questioning if such an act actually means I love someone more than I love myself. I have always thought that even "selfless" acts were self motivated. I would die or be harmed for my family, perhaps even strangers to prevent their own demise or harm. Though I may die or be harmed, what I want is to keep them from death or harming. And I see such a trade off of my harm or death as subordinate to their harm or death.

That being said, this notion that I would do something like that, is actually one of things I love about myself.. that I would do such a thing to save someone else.

I think it means you love being selfless (everyone being one with God) more than being selfish (alone). It is being companionable and charitable, bearing one another’s burdens (Mosiah 18) rather than being better than others according to your own genius, management and strength (Alma 30). I think it also means you love the divine that is in you, or the open connection you realize that you have with God, and which He wants you to enjoy. This means you love God and you have become one with Him, at least on this point (and a matter of degree that will hopefully keep growing).

Selflessness is not some kind of cosmic homogeneity, so you can still retain an identity and recognize and appreciate your and others’ personality, gifts, talents and place in this divine oneness.

From Matthew 10:39, losing one’s life (self) for Christ’s sake is another way of saying changing one’s focus from being alone to being united. Finding one’s life as a result is another way of saying there is more to life than what is experienced in being alone. You are still the same child of God, just having chosen a different condition.

Justice, or punishment, brings death; mercy brings life (Alma 26:20). So giving up the lesser life that is justly ours, or our mortal self, brings us to the more abundant life, our life in God (From John 10:10, “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”).

More from John 10: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep… I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine… As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep… Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”

Christ suffered mortal death (justice) so He could exercise His power to take it again in its heavenly form (mercy). The Father loves those who bridge justice and mercy, as He did in giving us His Son and as Jesus did in sacrificing His mortal life (alone) for everyone’s unity with Him in eternal life. This is the pattern of Christ we can follow, and in so doing, love others (selflessness) more than self, and still love what remains (or rather, what is expanded).

[Deborah]

But I am questioning if such an act actually means I love someone more than I love myself. I have always thought that even "selfless" acts were self motivated. I would die or be harmed for my family, perhaps even strangers to prevent their own demise or harm. Though I may die or be harmed, what I want is to keep them from death or harming. And I see such a trade off of my harm or death as subordinate to their harm or death.

This part of your statement intrigued me. I think if we might be in that situation of dying for a loved one we don't have time to think about it. We love that person so much that the thought of harm coming to that person is unbearable. Christ on the other hand knew what he was doing and in fact in Gethsemane went through the whole process of taking on the sins of all mankind. Does that mean his acts were self-motivated? I don't think so as he in fact asked if it were possible to take the cup from him. It was a matter of doing what had to be done out of love for his Father and for all mankind. Certainly he may have understood the reward at the end and that it was necessary but to say it was self-motivated I think takes away the enormity of the sacrifice.

I am deathly afraid of bees, wasps, any stinging insect and am allergic to bee stings. Many years ago my toddler son was playing in my Mom's backyard. Apparently there were nests of yellow jackets in the ground. When I heard his screams without even thinking I ran into the swarm of yellow jackets and pulled my son out brushing away all the insects attacking his bare little legs. Except for my little boy I would never have been able to do such a thing. I don't think self-motivation was any part of the equation. All I was thinking about was my little guy getting hurt.

We have a scripture in the Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:2 which says "But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever." Even in his selfless act Christ was giving the glory to the Father.

In a sense I understand what you are saying when you state selfless acts are self-motivated and I've actually seen that. Even for myself sometimes I've given something or done something for someone that no one knew about but deep inside I kind of wish someone else knew about it. Yes it makes me feel good but wouldn't it be great if someone else knew how good I was. So yes in a sense we can do this. But I don't think this applies to the situation of risking or giving up our lives to save someone else. So I no I don't think that such acts are the result of self-motivation.

[BlueDreams]

First I'm glad that you learned to be more loving to yourself! That's wonderful!

Do you think it is possible to love someone more than you love yourself?

Do you think Christ loves the Church more than himself, as much as himself or less than himself?

I was thinking about your questions and trying to decide which way it would go. I do it the usual way I go about things: Analyzing my own life. I don't think you can love yourself more than someone else. In large part because love (ie. charity) doesn't really work that way. It works by increasing...period. We increase in love, we simply love more. I think love is more like the atmosphere we breath than an object we contain. Objects can be accumulated and distributed as we see fit, atmosphere can't. The only thing we can do to increase our access is to change where we are and our own ability to breath it. When we find good clean atmosphere, it will effect not only us but those around us. Love, similarly can only increase in overall quality. As we learn to love as Christ did, our honor and respect for self, our family, and the stranger will increase simultaneously. That's at least what I've seen in my life. When I was insecure about myself, I could love no one very well. When I grew to better appreciate who I was, I could appreciate everyone else. When I worked to serve others, I learned to love and see myself in a better light, and as I did so my ability to love them dramatically increased.

So love is a great circle, there's no beginning or end to its influence and there's no true divisions to who it will effect. You learn to increase in love and you will love everybody more powerfully, including oneself.

At least that's what I decided while sitting here, thinking about it.

With luv,

BD

[Mudcat]

Thanks for the replies everyone, sorry I haven't been keeping up very well. My work PC tanked on me and I have had to reformat it... it's been a chore.

I will try to catchup a bit tomorrow

Regards,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Hi, Mudcat, and I'm sorry to hear about your problems, and I hope you're getting things under control. I'm not sure of where you're coming from, but how do you define "love" in the context you mentioned? You asked specifically:

Hi CS,

Been awhile, hope things are good your way. Bold mine, you have certainly asked a fair question, though I would say "love" is a very difficult word to define. In many ways it's an ambiguous sort of word and has some attached nuances like "conditional", "unconditional", "familial" and so forth. I think it odd that the words antonym "hate" seems to have a clear cut image in most people minds though.

I will try to offer a synopsis of what I think love is, in context. For one, I am referring to unconditional love. I think this is the love Christ would have us seek, especially given his challenge for us to love both neighbors and enemies. Christ loves us, despite our flaws, mistakes and so forth. I don't imagine he actually "loves" our sinful actions and thoughts, rather he loves what we can be/are through him and because of his forgiving nature our sinful condition is not factored against us in respect to his love.

This seems to be how we should love others. We love them for the good that is within and forgive or look over the flaws and errors that come up. We find within ourselves the capcity to love others for who they are.

If we are to love others, in an unconditional sense, then certainly the same should be true for how we love ourselves. My difficulty has been what I would call a lack of self forgiveness. I have been willing to love others despite their mistakes and shortcomings, where I have had a bit of a love/hate relationship with myself. Loving the good and hating the bad, rather than forgiving it.

Now I seem to be able to take a third person sort of view of my ownself and see myself in the same way as I see others. I am able to forgive myself for being me and it has brought me a sense of freedom. In truth, I don't think prior to this advent that I actually did have the capacity to forgive others... I just managed to compartmentalize their errors in a way that I did not look at them.

Hope that helps,

Mudcat