I Know The Church Is True!

[mbh26]

I've been reading a lot of NDEs. While I find them uplifting and believe a lot of it, it's troubling to me that nobody is yet to report that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church accepted by God and the one all people should be attending and contributing to. One explanation given is that would take away human agency or free agency or whatever the new jargon is. Why doesn't a missionary telling someone he knows the Church is true take away agency as well? The answer that this would take away agency seems incomplete at best and simply a copout at worst.

I know it's a complex question to define what is actually meant by a general statement, "The Church is true." Obviously many of the specific truths of that I once thought could accurately be deduced from the universal truth, "The Church is true," have been proven over and over again as I've gotten older to be unexplainable and unknown at best and simply not true at worst.

I saw a lot of truth in Gordon B. Hinckley's words from the pulpit that there really is no middle ground. Either the Church is true or it's among the worst frauds mankind has ever known. But I've met many closet nonbelievers that seem to see a lot more middle ground than President Hinckley saw. One Stake president went as far as to say, "There's not a thing true about the Church, but it's a great place to raise a family." I wanted to get the thoughts of the posters here on what kind of middle ground you see. Is there anything you might possibly regret having done in accordance with the Church's counsel, or perhaps just what you misunderstood to be the Church's counsel at the time. Is there any further light and knowledge we might gain when we actually pass through the tunnel into the afterlife that could possibly leave you feeling upset or cheated by the claims being preached by the Church back in the sometimes confusing state of mortality? Perhaps some of the older posters here can look back and see those situations in their own lives already? Did you ever regret buying food storage that you never ended up using? Or would you say, whether we ended up needing the food storage or not all that was important was that the prophet spoke and we obeyed. We don't consider the fact that we ended up throwing away $500 worth of wheat that we just could not quite bring ourselves to hand grind and use during what turned out to be good times a loss at all.

Edited September 8, 2011 by mbh26

[T-Shirt]

have been proven over and over again as I've gotten older to be unexplainable and unknown at best and simply not true at worst.

From my own personal experience, as I have gotten older, I have come to realize that a person can know, with absolute certainty, that the Church is true, even without physical evidence.

Best,

T-Shirt

[HeatherAnn]

I've been reading a lot of NDEs. While I find them uplifting and believe a lot of it, it's troubling to me that nobody is yet to report that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church accepted by God and the one all people should be attending and contributing to. One explanation given is that would take away human agency or free agency or whatever the new jargon is. Why doesn't a missionary telling someone he knows the Church is true take away agency as well? The answer that this would take away agency seems incomplete at best and simply a copout at worst.

I know it's a complex question to define what is actually meant by a general statement, "The Church is true." Obviously many of the specific truths of that I once thought could accurately be deduced from the universal truth, "The Church is true," have been proven over and over again as I've gotten older to be unexplainable and unknown at best and simply not true at worst.

I saw a lot of truth in Gordon B. Hinckley's words from the pulpit that there really is no middle ground. Either the Church is true or it's among the worst frauds mankind has ever known. But I've met many closet nonbelievers that seem to see a lot more middle ground than President Hinckley saw. One Stake president went as far as to say, "There's not a thing true about the Church, but it's a great place to raise a family." I wanted to get the thoughts of the posters here on what kind of middle ground you see. Is there anything you might possibly regret having done in accordance with what you the Church's counsel, or perhaps just what you misunderstood to be the Church's counsel. Is there any further light and knowledge we might gain when we actually pass through the tunnel into the afterlife that could possibly leave you feeling upset or cheated by the claims being preached by the Church back in the sometimes confusing state of mortality? Perhaps it's happened already in some cases?

Hi Mbh,

I find NDEs fascinating. And I too have never heard of anyone reporting their NDE revealed the one & only true church.

In fact, my good LDS friend who had an NDE, reported similar to what Joseph Smith did... when he asked which church to join... there is no religion on the other side. All things are spiritual to God.

I see thinking distortion when anyone claims there is no middle ground - that the church is either true or false. That's like saying you are either good or bad, when in reality you're both. No human is perfect. The church has been established & is run by humans... therefore it is not perfect. Even the ideals, may be getting closer to perfect, but without knowing all, we can't know which ideals are best.

Occasionally, I post on StayLDS Forums... where people are realizing the LDS church has imperfections, yet choose to stay active anyway.

On there, someone posted this little joke, that this topic reminded me of...

A bus loaded with tourists suffered a tragic accident and all on the bus were instantly killed.

They all go up to heaven as a group and St. Peter greets them at the gate.

"Welcome to heaven all of you. Let me show you around."

St. Peter takes the group around heaven and they first pass a beautiful synagogue full of people dancing and singing in Hebrew.

One tourist asks what that is all about...St.Peter says, "Oh those are our Jewish residents."

The group then passes another building with lots of Gregorian chants and latin speaking, and so St.Peter tells the group, "Here you find a Catholic group of citizens of heaven."

They go on passing numerous different buildings with different groups of people, all happy and doing their thing.

Then, St.Peter stops the group...gathers them close by, and says, "Shhhh....Please, please, please...we must now be silent and tiptoe until I instruct you further."

So the group quietly proceeds, as they pass a nice church building with singing and sounds of sermons and happy people doing their thing.

When they pass, St. Peter says, "OK, we can move ahead now, no silence is needed any longer."

One tourist stops St. Peter, "Wait, wait. What was that all about?"

St. Peter responds, "Oh that. Well, that last church was the mormon church...we always pass by there quietly... they think they are the only ones up here."

[mbh26]

From my own personal experience, as I have gotten older, I have come to realize that a person can know, with absolute certainty, that the Church is true, even without physical evidence.

Best,

T-Shirt

Does the statement, "The Church is true," mean the same thing to you now as it did when you first bore your testimony at 5 years old, or perhaps even when you affirmed it repeatedly as a missionary?

[mbh26]

Occasionally, I post on StayLDS Forums... where people are realizing the LDS church has imperfections, yet choose to stay active anyway.

On there, someone posted this little joke, that this topic reminded me of...

For me there are just too many sacrifices required specifically by the LDS religion that would make it worth it to me to continue to serve if it turned out that the Church was not everything they commanded me to believe it was. I'd consider it bad stewardship on my part to continue to pour money and labor into it if it weren't completely true. And while nothing makes me angrier than someone telling me they are sure something is true, expect me to believe them without question and then show no remorse when the truth turns out otherwise, ultimately it's my responsibility to judge right from wrong and act accordingly. That's just my philosophy though. I'd be interested to hear from others who might believe that our only responsibility is to believe and obey, not judge right from wrong. That's how I was raised to think, but I no longer believe that.

Edited September 8, 2011 by mbh26

[thesometimesaint]

mbh26:

Change is inevitable, at least in this life. Do I know I loved my wife any less 39 years ago when we first got married. No, that love just manifests itself much differently now than it did then.

Edited September 8, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Senator]

Does the statement, "The Church is true," mean the same thing to you now as it did when you first bore your testimony at 5 years old, or perhaps even when you affirmed it repeatedly as a missionary?

May I step in and field this question?

The statement, "the church is true" has most definately taken on a different meaning for me now, as apposed to my younger years.

In fact, I at times get a bit edgy when I hear it. I'm not exactly sure why that is! Probably because I feel the expression has been heavily abused; almost to the point of becoming a cliche or a mantra. Having been a member all my life I realize that it is simply an imbedded cultural expression. But what I really want to hear is the why and what rather than the rattling off of what has, in my estimation, become a rather nebulous statement.

[Senator]

May I also address one of your other questions.

I retain my mmbership and activity in the church with a full acceptance of the possibility that the church's truth claims may not be true.

While with that personal admission bright in my mind, I also can declare that I cannot think of one thing that the church has asked me do that I think has been a waste of time or held in regret. (well there is scouting, but I won't go there )

Edited September 8, 2011 by Senator

[wenglund]

For me there are just too many sacrifices required specifically by the LDS religion that would make it worth it to me to continue to serve if it turned out that the Church was not everything they commanded me to believe it was.

I believe you are looking at this all wrong and asking the wrong questions. For one, you seem to be considering only half of the equation--i.e. the sacrifices or costs. Whereas, to make a rational decision about continuing or not to serve, would necessitate also considering the benefits. If the costs outweigh the benefits (both current and potential), or if other alternatives to the restored gospel have greater net benefits, then it wouldn't make sense to continue. However, if the cost of continuing within the restored gospel are outweighed by the benefits, and outweigh the net benefits of other alternatives, then it would make sense to continue.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[HeatherAnn]

For me there are just too many sacrifices required specifically by the LDS religion that would make it worth it to me to continue to serve if it turned out that the Church was not everything they commanded me to believe it was. I'd consider it bad stewardship on my part to continue to pour money and labor into it if it weren't completely true. And while nothing makes me angrier than someone telling me they are sure something is true, expect me to believe them without question and then show no remorse when the truth turns out otherwise, ultimately it's my responsibility to judge right from wrong and act accordingly. That's just my philosophy though. I'd be interested to hear from others who might believe that our only responsibility is to believe and obey, not judge right from wrong. That's how I was raised to think, but I no longer believe that.

I agree with Senator that it's a little annoying to hear "The church is true" without an explanation of faith.

I also am annoyed to hear of "black or white" thinking - "the church is either true or not." It sets people up for no choice when they learn the real truth, that the church is imperfect - historically, doctrinally & culturally.

Yet, I don't think there is a better organization to help bring up my kids to have high standards & morals. It does take a village to raise a child, & I appreciate how everyone gets involved in our church.

Still, I'd be lying if I told you I hadn't felt "bad stewardship" - especially when I was in a teaching calling, which is why I got out of that calling.

My husband & I married in the temple, with the understanding we'd raise our children with LDS teachings. So, that also is partly why I continue to attend, despite differing beliefs.

I also have redefined gospel terms so that I am spiritually uplifted - & can realize a deeper aspect of superficially-taken scriptures.

Mbh, our entire lives, we go through death to previous beliefs, to be born again & again. First, you realize Santa isn't who you thought he was, then you realize your parents are imperfect , Then you realize the world doesn't revolve around you, then you realize how much it takes to run a home & how much it takes to be a parent yourself... Then you realize certain illusions (romantic, religious etc.) aren't what you thought they were... & many other enlightening "good news" -(which at first doesn't seem good, but rather ticks us off!)

Line upon line, precept upon precept. If it were any more than that, we couldn't handle it without going bonkers.

"Moderation in all things." - including religious fanaticism... and... questioning.

We need a certain amount of illusion, which movies, music, beauty & religion offers... yet we also need to temper it with good ol' common sense.

Edited September 8, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Kevin Christensen]

I've been reading a lot of NDEs. While I find them uplifting and believe a lot of it, it's troubling to me that nobody is yet to report that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church accepted by God and the one all people should be attending and contributing to.

I've published on NDEs and the Book of Mormon in JBMS 2/1. And I've commented on how Brigham Young likely had an NDE in Winter Quarters that accounts for his teachings of the afterlife, sampled in the Spirit World chapter of the Priesthood manual. I like that Alma 29 talks about how God gives all peoples all that he sees fit for them to have. Moroni 7 talks about the light of Christ given to all. I love how Nephi says God remembers the heathen.

One useful exercise is to open up D&C 1:30 and count how many words you have to delete to get the verse to say "only true church". Another would be see what is actually says. I find that D&C 1 when read carefully as a coherent whole offers a much more robust and tolerant concept than "only true church." Where exclusive, ideal, perfect concepts tend to piggy-pack on the "only true church" notion, D&C 1 expressly describes the LDS church as imperfect in behavior and knowledge, and non-exclusive relative to revelation, truth, and virtue. The distinction I see is of being "well pleasing" relative to the ideas conveyed by the phrase "true and living," which in Biblical imagery concern the voice of warning (Jer. 10:10), tree of life, living bread, living waters, true vine, the "living way" past the temple veil, and so forth. That is, "true and living" directs my awareness towards revelation (Book of Mormon, D&C, ongoing), priesthood, ordinances and associated covenants, and especially the temple, which are what in actual daily practice distinguish LDS culture from other groups.

Another is to consider stages 1 and 2 of the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth in comparison to the "only true church" concept, and where it might have come from, if not D&C 1. For instance:

POSITION 2 - Multiplicity Prelegitimate. (Resisting snake)

Now the person moves to accept that there is diversity, but they still think there are TRUE authorities who are right, that the others are confused by complexities or are just frauds. They think they are with the true authorities and are right while all others are wrong. They accept that their good authorities present problems so they can learn to reach right answers independently.

And yet another is to consider the kinds of things Joseph Smith had to say on the topic of final judgment:

But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of man, causes "His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, "according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil," or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, "not according to what they have not, but according to what they have," those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will by judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right. History of the Church, Vol.4, Ch.35, p.595

I see the distinction of the LDS faith as the only well pleasing gathering relative to the presence of the Book of Mormon, the revelations, the priesthood, the ordinances and covenants, and the temple. That's enough for my commitment and enthusiastic pleasure.

All or nothing thinking is dramatic, but, I think, not appropriate for the actual distinctions that the Lord lays out in the revelation. And there is the danger for those who think if we don't have exclusive truth and virtue then we've got nothing.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Hi Mbh,

I find NDEs fascinating. And I too have never heard of anyone reporting their NDE revealed the one & only true church.

NTD’s are very short (by definition) do you think that that is what message someone needs to receive in those few minutes, or the Love of God that they experience?

[HeatherAnn]

NTD’s are very short (by definition) do you think that that is what message someone needs to receive in those few minutes, or the Love of God that they experience?

LOVE OF GOD, for sure!

God is love!

Love God & others as ourselves - those commandments prioritize all other laws & prophets! - Matt 22:40

[BlueDreams]

I've been reading a lot of NDEs. While I find them uplifting and believe a lot of it, it's troubling to me that nobody is yet to report that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church accepted by God and the one all people should be attending and contributing to. One explanation given is that would take away human agency or free agency or whatever the new jargon is. Why doesn't a missionary telling someone he knows the Church is true take away agency as well? The answer that this would take away agency seems incomplete at best and simply a copout at worst.

The church being true and people dying and seeing heaven and not being told to join the church doesn't seem to me

to coorrelate. A major reason this doesn't bothered me is in part because no where is there any expectation that everyone living on earth is supposed to join the church in this life. The Church's purpose on this earth is not for every one to join it while on this earth. I don't think everybody is supposed to join the church on this earth right this instant. Being apart of the church during mortality doesn't suggest our likelihood of making it to heaven. It helps to strongly define our responsibility while on this earth but not our salvation. These responsibilities are absolutely essential for us and the purpose of God's children to, in the end, become one. These responsibilities are true, correct, and absolute. Thus the Church, in bringing to pass God's purpose on the earth and heaven is true and the only true church at that.

I know it's a complex question to define what is actually meant by a general statement, "The Church is true." Obviously many of the specific truths of that I once thought could accurately be deduced from the universal truth, "The Church is true," have been proven over and over again as I've gotten older to be unexplainable and unknown at best and simply not true at worst.

The opposite is true for me. Far more is making sense and this statement grows more profound (for once it sometimes made me uncomfortable) as I come to understand what is the Church. In my mind the most important question to ask when wondering about what this statement means is what exactly is the church. The more I've come to understand what it is, the more I understand my role in it, and the more I understand how Gordon B Hinkley could make the statement about it be true or its not

I wanted to get the thoughts of the posters here on what kind of middle ground you see. Is there anything you might possibly regret having done in accordance with the Church's counsel, or perhaps just what you misunderstood to be the Church's counsel at the time. Is there any further light and knowledge we might gain when we actually pass through the tunnel into the afterlife that could possibly leave you feeling upset or cheated by the claims being preached by the Church back in the sometimes confusing state of mortality?

No. Of course I've never bought food storage to last me more than a couple weeks.... so maybe I should wait a few years before saying that . But as of this minute of this day, no, not a thing. The perfect life is not the one without mistakes but one that grows from every time and season that comes your way. My understanding of gospel, various counsels, etc are not the same today as they were a few years ago. Some counsel was not as good as others. But I regret nothing. I take time to work through things I don't understand. I do so with faith in God, trusting (or at least trying to) in Him and what He has told me. I find the more I trust God the easier answers to my questions come, the deeper my understanding becomes, and the more I realize just how little i know and how much I'm dependent on God. And personally, no, I don't think there's something that I'll learn on the other side that would leave me feeling upset or cheated. For me it's a matter of perspective. This test isn't in the details but the overall state of our souls. Christ makes up the vast difference in human error, whether my own or another's or even entire peoples. I trust His Atonement in its power to overcome the fallibility myself and others...to make all things pure. So why should I worry as long as my purpose and primary desire is to do as God asks?

With luv,

BD

Edited September 8, 2011 by BlueDreams

[CV75]

I already know it isn’t. There is Zion that was taken up and soon to return, and we also have the Church of the Firstborn to look forward to.

So I suggest a fourth choice:

Even if the Church is not the only true Church, we still do everyone the same favor as if it is the same Church as the other two.

[CV75]

For this reason, the correct statement is, "I know the Church is the only True Church on the face of the earth."

[wenglund]

I agree with Senator that it's a little annoying to hear "The church is true" without an explanation of faith.

I also am annoyed to hear of "black or white" thinking - "the church is either true or not." It sets people up for no choice when they learn the real truth, that the church is imperfect - historically, doctrinally & culturally.

Such things don't bother me in the least--in part because I find it best for all parties to try not to be hyper-sensitive, intolerant, or make people offenders for a word. But, that may just be me. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Storm Rider]

I did not vote because I disagree with the first the pretext of the question and second the limited choices.

I dislike the trite phrase, I know this is the true church or anything similar. It is not a testimony and hopefully it is shorthand for faith in the Godhead, the Atonement of the Savior, the Plan of Salvation, the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ, etc. That is the type of testimony that I appreciate and which invites the Spirit more strongly than the inane sayings that have cropped up in our Mormon culture and in how parents have taught their children to parrot a testimony. HINT: parents should not teach their children to parrot things of the Spirit, rather they should teach them how to recognize the Spirit. A testimony should only be born by an individual who can stand on their how two feet and bear a testimony that is in their heart. Never, never, never should a parent acquiesce to a child who wants to parrot words in front of the congregation on Fast Sunday. I know it is hard words, but I think it is an abuse of the Spirit and Fast and Testimony meeting. My soapbox for today.

[mbh26]

I believe you are looking at this all wrong and asking the wrong questions. For one, you seem to be considering only half of the equation--i.e. the sacrifices or costs. Whereas, to make a rational decision about continuing or not to serve, would necessitate also considering the benefits. If the costs outweigh the benefits (both current and potential), or if other alternatives to the restored gospel have greater net benefits, then it wouldn't make sense to continue. However, if the cost of continuing within the restored gospel are outweighed by the benefits, and outweigh the net benefits of other alternatives, then it would make sense to continue.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If it turned out that there were not only one true religion, why wouldn't it also be true that my tithing dollars and hours of service would not have been better spent in basic Christian charity rather than converting the world to Mormonism?

[mbh26]

dp sorry

Edited September 8, 2011 by mbh26

[mbh26]

NTD’s are very short (by definition) do you think that that is what message someone needs to receive in those few minutes, or the Love of God that they experience?

What could be more important than knowing which church is God's only true Church? Not all NDEs are short. Even if you're only dead for a short time, time can be very different in the next realm. There's plenty of time. I sure can't buy lack of time as a satisfactory reason the LDS church is not mentioned in NDEs.

[HeatherAnn]

If it turned out that there were not only one true religion, why wouldn't it also be true that my tithing dollars and hours of service would not have been better spent in basic Christian charity rather than converting the world to Mormonism?

I agree - to an extent.

I do think that many service organizations within each ward (nursury, primary, young men/women, RS, EQ etc.) - are teaching good morals & standards... although there's room for improvement.

As for money - Besides basic maintenance of wards, building of needed buildings... I believe the rest should be for ensuring people of all religions & ethnic backgrounds have access to clean water, basic education (on hygein, health especially) - at least elementary schools. This would not only help people live more healthy, it would also contribute positively to poverty & ignorance - & crimes associated.

[mbh26]

I already know it isn’t. There is Zion that was taken up and soon to return, and we also have the Church of the Firstborn to look forward to.

So I suggest a fourth choice:

Even if the Church is not the only true Church, we still do everyone the same favor as if it is the same Church as the other two.

That's what I was trying to get at with my choice number 3. I wish I could redo the poll and see how many would opt for this option. But you have to admit, the choice you stated just doesn't carry quite the same selling power as a teary eyed, "the only true and living Church upon the planet...," that we're basically trained to say. It's not just in religion that this kind of stuff irritates me. I get so sick and tired of hearing sales pitches in the medical field that I know have nothing to do with science and everything to do with finance.

[bluebell]

What could be more important than knowing which church is God's only true Church?

Is it logical to believe that if something's important, God will always hand out the answer upon demand?

It seems like, if God believed that the best way for people to find His true church was by handing out the inforamtion any time anyone asked, then angels would frequently be appearing to people and simply telling them which church was His.

That doesn't happen though, so, in light of knowing that God doesn't work that way here in mortality, i'm wondering why we would assume that He would or should work that way for a NDE?

[mbh26]

The only thing I have a desire to donate to the third world right now is birth control. It doesn't matter what I feel about that anyway. I have to many of my own people now who need me, and I haven't even had children yet.