I Know The Church Is True!

[HeatherAnn]

The only thing I have a desire to donate to the third world right now is birth control. It doesn't matter what I feel about that anyway. I have to many of my own people now who need me, and I haven't even had children yet.

I wonder if you're feeling a little overwhelmed.

I feel similarly - especially some days, I feel maxed out.

I think it's good to push ourselves - but it's also good to let other carry whatever little pebble they can carry on their own.

Many hands make light work. It's not just one person's job to solve the world's problems - we share the load. And a time & season for every purpose.

Truth is a process, & a perspective. The more perspectives, the more truthful.

If the church provides a sense of purpose, spirituality, personal progress, social connections etc.. then it's true for that person, while it serves that purpose.

If Islam, Judaism, Buddhim etc... provide those things for another - than it's true for that person, while it serves that purpose.

It's like how the Pharasees were getting all picky about what's allowed on the Sabath...Jesus taught, "The sabbath was made for man, & not man for the sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

Religion was made as a tool to help us spiritually, but it's not the end all.

We're never going to realize & apply 100% of all truth. God designed us with limits.

Yet, we can realize & apply our personal best... Whatever we do - do with our heart, mind & soul!

Edited September 8, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[wenglund]

If it turned out that there were not only one true religion, why wouldn't it also be true that my tithing dollars and hours of service would not have been better spent in basic Christian charity rather than converting the world to Mormonism?

For the latter to be true, the dollars and hours of service spent in basic Christian charity must yield better all-around results than active participation in the restored gospel of Christ and building the kingdom of God.

However, as previously intimated, you are looking at this wrong and asking the wrong questions. While some of us may have unwavering confidence, we don't know definitively whether the Church is the only true Church (whatever that may mean to each individual) or not. It is a matter of faith.

Besides, as I understand things, determining whether the Church is the only true church or not, isn't key. Instead, what is important is determining what path of faith God wishes for us to take, and then determine whether that path is leading us to where God wish for us to go.

So, instead of posing relatively unknowable hypothetical questions on an internet discussion board, we should be asking God (via Moroni 10) if the restored gospel is the the path of faith he wishes us to take in becoming like him, and then, by way of Alma 32, determine if that path, and the way in which we are proceeding upon that path, is moving us towards becoming like our Father in heaven.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

I wonder if you're feeling a little overwhelmed.

I am wondering if he or she is feeling overly cynical or overly critical--conditions that may occur when one shifts their reliance from God to oneself, become more rebellious, and when one becomes less introspective and more judgmental, etc.

If he or she is looking for a great question to pose, I would think "how is it working for you?" might be best.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[keith_brian]

Indeed, mbh26, if the church is not all it claims to be, then it is a colossal waste of time and money for the people involved. I also think some of your observations on this thread are very astute.

I went to lunch with a friend earlier today that grew up in the Mormon church, served a mission, married a faithful in the Mormon temple, and was an Elder's Quorum president not too long ago. Both he and his wife have left the Mormon church and accepted a rational view of the world. I asked him if he was particularly bitter over his time spent in the church. He pointed out to me the two years of his life he wasted proselyting for the church, the thousands of dollars wasted in tithing, the countless hours wasted doing things like home teaching, and the angst associated with not being good enough. Based on that, he did indicate that he was a little bit bitter.

Whether you will end up being bitter when you find out the church isn't true, will you be bitter? I don't know, but probably yes.

Good luck on your journey, wherever it leads you.

[CV75]

That's what I was trying to get at with my choice number 3. I wish I could redo the poll and see how many would opt for this option. But you have to admit, the choice you stated just doesn't carry quite the same selling power as a teary eyed, "the only true and living Church upon the planet...," that we're basically trained to say. It's not just in religion that this kind of stuff irritates me. I get so sick and tired of hearing sales pitches in the medical field that I know have nothing to do with science and everything to do with finance.

What’s this “we” business? Speak for yourself! Your complaint is way too general, a caricature in and of itself, and reflective of a very shallow experience.

[wenglund]

Indeed, mbh26, if the church is not all it claims to be, then it is a colossal waste of time and money for the people involved. I also think some of your observations on this thread are very astute.

I went to lunch with a friend earlier today that grew up in the Mormon church, served a mission, married a faithful in the Mormon temple, and was an Elder's Quorum president not too long ago. Both he and his wife have left the Mormon church and accepted a rational view of the world. I asked him if he was particularly bitter over his time spent in the church. He pointed out to me the two years of his life he wasted proselyting for the church, the thousands of dollars wasted in tithing, the countless hours wasted doing things like home teaching, and the angst associated with not being good enough. Based on that, he did indicate that he was a little bit bitter.

Sounds to me like an irrational attitude that is destined for bitterness regardless the walk of life. It is analogous to spending money and time tending a rose garden only to consider nothing but the thorns.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[HeatherAnn]

I am wondering if he or she is feeling overly cynical or overly critical--conditions that may occur when one shifts their reliance from God to oneself, become more rebellious, and when one becomes less introspective and more judgmental, etc.

If he or she is looking for a great question to pose, I would think "how is it working for you?" might be best.

That's really funny, Wade, especially considering many of the cynical, overly critical, strong-Mormon believer posters on this forum.

Yeah... Let's ask those I just mentioned on this forum - how is -nit picking every post for references indicating exactly which General Authority can back up one's personal testimony - working for you?

Why have you shifted your reliance from God (LOVE) to yourself, becoming more rebellious of any post that threatens you... Why have you become less introspective & more judgmental?

Edited September 9, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[bluebell]

Whether you will end up being bitter when you find out the church isn't true, will you be bitter? I don't know, but probably yes.

In my experience, it pretty much depends on what type of personality you have.

Some personality types are prone to bitterness. Some aren't.

[wenglund]

That's really funny, Wade, especially considering many of the cynical, overly critical, strong-Mormon believer posters on this forum.

Yeah... Let's ask those I just mentioned on this forum - how is -nit picking every post for references indicating exactly which General Authority can back up one's personal testimony - working for you?

Either that, or you could introspect to see if you are reacting overly defensively and worrying too much about what other people may do and say.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mbh26]

That doesn't happen though, so, in light of knowing that God doesn't work that way here in mortality, i'm wondering why we would assume that He would or should work that way for a NDE?

But then why would God allow an NDE to happen at all. Wouldn't that be invalidating the test of life for those who experience them?

[mbh26]

I wonder if you're feeling a little overwhelmed.

I feel similarly - especially some days, I feel maxed out.

I think it's good to push ourselves - but it's also good to let other carry whatever little pebble they can carry on their own.

Many hands make light work. It's not just one person's job to solve the world's problems - we share the load. And a time & season for every purpose.

Truth is a process, & a perspective. The more perspectives, the more truthful.

If the church provides a sense of purpose, spirituality, personal progress, social connections etc.. then it's true for that person, while it serves that purpose.

If Islam, Judaism, Buddhim etc... provide those things for another - than it's true for that person, while it serves that purpose.

It's like how the Pharasees were getting all picky about what's allowed on the Sabath...Jesus taught, "The sabbath was made for man, & not man for the sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

Religion was made as a tool to help us spiritually, but it's not the end all.

We're never going to realize & apply 100% of all truth. God designed us with limits.

Yet, we can realize & apply our personal best... Whatever we do - do with our heart, mind & soul!

That seems about right to me. Thank you for that explanation.

[mbh26]

Besides, as I understand things, determining whether the Church is the only true church or not, isn't key. Instead, what is important is determining what path of faith God wishes for us to take, and then determine whether that path is leading us to where God wish for us to go.

Wade that makes a lot of sense actually. But that sure isn't how it's preached on the mission or in the chapel.

[mbh26]

Whether you will end up being bitter when you find out the church isn't true, will you be bitter? I don't know, but probably yes.

Probably, I can stay bitter over a lot of things even it happened a long time ago. But just being bitter and refraining from taking vengeance is pretty good for me. But I don't know for sure yet. And who knows how I'll react when I actually am in the spirit world and am no longer denied a more absolute truth. A lot of people were surprised when death actually came. A lot of things weren't the way they thought they would be.

In my experience, it pretty much depends on what type of personality you have.

Some personality types are prone to bitterness. Some aren't.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. If we were to get to the other side and find out it was a somewhat well meaning fraud, far from completely true, will the only issue be which people are able to not be upset about being lied to and which people are able to feel ok about it? That kind of looks like where the focus is going to be again. There won't be any confrontation, admission of fault, or apology from those who told the lies. The only subject or focus will be on me letting go and being happy about it. I've never been too good at that one. But then again, I don't think God Himself feels to happy about unrepetant sinners who have done him wrong either.

Edited September 9, 2011 by mbh26

[bluebell]

But then why would God allow an NDE to happen at all. Wouldn't that be invalidating the test of life for those who experience them?

Since they don't happen to everyone, it seems possible, if they do actually happen, that they happen dependant upon God's specific plan for an individual person. I see little evidence, when comparing different NDEs and seeing the vast differences in them, to suggest they are meant to teach any universal truth meant for the world.

[elguanteloko]

From my own personal experience, as I have gotten older, I have come to realize that a person can know, with absolute certainty, that the Church is true, even without physical evidence.

Best,

T-Shirt

Does knowing with absolute certainty mean that you reject the possibility that you could be wrong? Or does this just mean that you accept you COULD be wrong although you are absolutely certain you are not..?

[wenglund]

Wade that makes a lot of sense actually. But that sure isn't how it's preached on the mission or in the chapel.

I believe it is--though perhaps to hear it takes ears willing and able to hear. Try listening carefully next time or in the future and you may find it in abundance. Certainly, the scriptures are replete with it. Whatever the case, that is the essence of the restored gospel, which is summarized in the 4-fold mission of the Church.

Besides, our gospel is less about what is being preached and more about what we do and how we live our lives. Ours is an active and not passive faith. It is about progressing and becoming, both individually and collectively as members and families.

The questions before you, then, are: where spiritually do you want to go? What is the best way to get there? Who best to consult in making that decision?

Once those questions are answered, it then becomes a matter of commitment. And, by following through on one's commitment, therein is evinced whether the chosen path is "true" for you or not.

Like others, I wish you well in your journey.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mbh26]

Does knowing with absolute certainty mean that you reject the possibility that you could be wrong? Or does this just mean that you accept you COULD be wrong although you are absolutely certain you are not..?

Another question would be, "Would you accept any responsiblity for this assertion if you are wrong, or does all responsibility still lie with those who choose to believe or not to believe you?"

A major reason this doesn't bothered me is in part because no where is there any expectation that everyone living on earth is supposed to join the church in this life. The Church's purpose on this earth is not for every one to join it while on this earth. I don't think everybody is supposed to join the church on this earth right this instant

I think you're right. But it certainly amazes me that you could come out of the mission field fairly recently and have this opinion. Did you ever express this opinion openly during the mission? Were you punished in any way for saying this by the leadership? I just couldn't see them allowing me to finish the mission if I were ever to even hint that I agreed with such a position.

[keith_brian]

Sounds to me like an irrational attitude that is destined for bitterness regardless the walk of life. It is analogous to spending money and time tending a rose garden only to consider nothing but the thorns.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Actually wrong Wade. According to him, they have been much happier since they left.

[why me]

Whether you will end up being bitter when you find out the church isn't true, will you be bitter? I don't know, but probably yes.

And how does one find out the lds church isn't true? Has there been a disclosure recently? Has something been uncovered that I am unaware of?

I think that your friend has made an assumption that the church isn't true. And that is much different than the lds church being proven untrue. His bitterness would be unfounded since it is based on an assumption.

[The Nehor]

I would regret a fixation on the truthiness of the Church if it became an idol.

[why me]

I went to lunch with a friend earlier today that grew up in the Mormon church, served a mission, married a faithful in the Mormon temple, and was an Elder's Quorum president not too long ago. Both he and his wife have left the Mormon church and accepted a rational view of the world. I asked him if he was particularly bitter over his time spent in the church. He pointed out to me the two years of his life he wasted proselyting for the church, the thousands of dollars wasted in tithing, the countless hours wasted doing things like home teaching, and the angst associated with not being good enough. Based on that, he did indicate that he was a little bit bitter.

This feeling would also come when one regrets spending 30 years on a job that they are now dissatisfied with. Or if we spent 25 years volunteering for some organization that we no longer support. We may view this also as a waste of time. And this is what happens when someone doesn't look at the bright side of it all. Likewise for your friend. They met good people, volunteered in service for others, gave support to the needy in that organization and helped build what they thought at that time was the kingdom of god. Not bad really. Also, whether they believe this or not, but their marriage and cultural values were established by the lds church. And I am sure that they have a very loving and respectful marriage because of this. And perhaps their children came through their early years,drug free, alcohol free and with good moral values.

We tend to forget just what the postives and how these positives have shaped the lives of people who have left the church in a positive way.

[why me]

Actually wrong Wade. According to him, they have been much happier since they left.

And that may be so. But it doesn't change the fact that they may owe their wonderful marriage and well-balanced life to the lds church. Which of course, helps them to navigate their lives well without the church.

[Darth_Bill]

I went to lunch with a friend earlier today that grew up in the Mormon church, served a mission, married a faithful in the Mormon temple, and was an Elder's Quorum president not too long ago. Both he and his wife have left the Mormon church and accepted a rational view of the world. I asked him if he was particularly bitter over his time spent in the church. He pointed out to me the two years of his life he wasted proselyting for the church, the thousands of dollars wasted in tithing, the countless hours wasted doing things like home teaching, and the angst associated with not being good enough. Based on that, he did indicate that he was a little bit bitter.

Whether you will end up being bitter when you find out the church isn't true, will you be bitter? I don't know, but probably yes.

I'm coming to a crossroads in my life, but like Wade said, it really depends on your attitude. I had a horrible time on my mission, one where friends of mine thought I would leave the church then. What point would that serve? I am nothing but thankful to the church for providing me all the things that it did, meeting the wonderful people for the most part acting in selfless manners. The church helped me find my wife, children, and gave me a wonderful challenge to better myself. I can't be anything but thankful about that. Those hours, although maybe misplaced, gave me experiences that I wouldn't have received elsewhere. The money....well, is money. My life isn't defined by money.

I might not know where I'll end up, but being bitter. Nope. I am not that small.

[BlueDreams]

I think you're right. But it certainly amazes me that you could come out of the mission field fairly recently and have this opinion. Did you ever express this opinion openly during the mission? Were you punished in any way for saying this by the leadership? I just couldn't see them allowing me to finish the mission if I were ever to even hint that I agreed with such a position.

I'm sure I did...it's written right in scripture.1 Nephi 14:12 describes the church of the Lamb of God as few. More so the experiences I had while on my mission only reiterated that. And some of my favorite scripture describing the work of the Lord are found in Moro 7:29-32 and and Moses 7:21-41. God's care for His children is infinite. He's working with the most infinite care so that all may experience the depth of His love. This church plays an extremely crucial role in fulfilling God's work. But His work was continuing even during the Apostacy and continues in each individual's life, whether they're Mormon or not. The church is the means, not the end.

And I was never punished. My mission president trusted me and that was one of the highest compliments I felt that I could receive. I loved the people I worked with and understood that I was apart of God's great work. I had no doubt that the people I met were those that I was supposed to meet. I have no doubt that those who did not receive the restored gospel will be tried again and again and again....and again. Because that's the Love of God. Nothing I said I think is all that controversial. It's what I came to understand from precious spiritual experiences and an obsession with studying the scriptures. I knew my purpose as a missionary. I knew it was great. I knew and know this is the Church of God restored upon the earth unique from all others upon its face. I also knew that most of the precious souls that I met and felt the love that the Lord felt for them would not join the church at that time. I came to realize that sometimes we were placed in a certain area to teach some of the other principles and ordinances of the Gospel and not the specific one of baptism. My job was to help convert to God. You asked what's more important than knowing the church is true....it's knowing God. You can know the church is true and not know God and that information is absolutely useless and even possibly detrimental. And if my part in helping someone convert was simply a smile, a prayer, and a loving word, then that was what I'd give and I'd do it and know that I had pleased my Creator and Author of our joy.

So I finished my mission honorably. I knew so, not because of the fact that I wasn't dicsiplined, but because the Spirit of God confirmed such in a precious and gentle way. That's all that matters. The church is a means for all mankind to better understand it in the end. But it's not the most important thing. Knowing our God is. My mission simply taught me that there was nothing more significant. I didn't care what I had to do to feel Him and have a glimpse of His Majesty and Power. I didn't really care about the rules, I wanted to follow them because I loved Him and owed him my soul let alone sacrificing pants for a little bit. I can't understand the idea of feeling jipped because of the "sacrifices" made. I don't feel anything that I've done in my life is worth calling a sacrifice in comparison to what I received from God.

With luv,

BD

Edited September 9, 2011 by BlueDreams

[Kenngo1969]

Indeed, mbh26, if the church is not all it claims to be, then it is a colossal waste of time and money for the people involved. I also think some of your observations on this thread are very astute.

I went to lunch with a friend earlier today that grew up in the Mormon church, served a mission, married a faithful in the Mormon temple, and was an Elder's Quorum president not too long ago. Both he and his wife have left the Mormon church and accepted a rational view of the world. I asked him if he was particularly bitter over his time spent in the church. He pointed out to me the two years of his life he wasted proselyting for the church, the thousands of dollars wasted in tithing, the countless hours wasted doing things like home teaching, and the angst associated with not being good enough. Based on that, he did indicate that he was a little bit bitter.

Whether you will end up being bitter when you find out the church isn't true, will you be bitter? I don't know, but probably yes.

Good luck on your journey, wherever it leads you.

Good heavens. Even the idea behind The Book of Mormon musical allows for the prospect that however one feels about the truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (that is to say, even if it were all just a bunch of hooey), Latter-day Saints and the organization to which they belong are still a powerful force for good in the world. As a young Deacon and Teacher, like many others, I collected fast offerings from many people whose shadows probably hadn't darkened the threshold of any church building in thirty years or more, but even their view of the Church wasn't nearly as cynical as your friend's; they still donated because they recognized the good it does. (I suppose that they, in contrast to your formerly-faithful friend, were only mildly deluded??? )

All of that home teaching, all of that missionary service, all of that presiding over an Elders quorum, all of that temple service, all of that other service in the Church, all of those donations, did absolutely no good whatsoever??? Wow ... Just ... wow. I wonder if the people who were baptized that he taught on his mission all feel that way now. I wonder if all the people for whom he served as proxy in the course of his temple service feel that way now. I wonder if the people he home taught feel that way. I wonder if the beneficiaries of his other Church service and of his contributions feel that way. If he thinks they do, that's got to be a devastating blow, not only to his former worldview, but also to his very self-esteem! I'd settle for cultural Mormonism every day of the week and twice on Sunday before I'd be willing to accede to a fate like that.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Kenngo1969