Dishonesty from Law Enforcement.

[emeliza]

You know I’ve just come to accept that it simply depends on the state that you live in.

My husband gets pulled over by the police in one of our counties every time he drives thru it practically. He has California plates, is driving from Nebraska (Winter Quarters Temple) to Iowa (home). He has got pulled over for slightly swerving in his own lane (never crossed a line), for having a cover on his license plate that they didn't like and other various reasons. Really, they think he is a drug runner. No lie. He asked once what he could do to stop being pulled over. They told him to get Iowa plates. Unfortunately he can't yet. We think we might just put a college sticker on his car. They never have ticket him yet, but every time they ask if they can search his car and try to bully him into letting them. He never has.

Oh and little tidbit. New Mexico doesn't even issue front license plates so my SIL gets pulled over often when she is out of state.

2 ---- Courts have held that police are free to lie to anyone they are talking to, as a legitimate means of getting confessions. That is one reason why any criminal attorney will suggest you refuse to have any conversation with an officer at all. It is also why you should NEVER assume the officer is saying truth to you.

True. Not sure if it is a good or bad thing, but definitely is what they do.

And my family has many police officers in it and I like them and I don't have a problem with police officers. They are generally just doing their job and often their job is to get a confession...sometimes to things they didn't even know were wrong by just 'fishing'.

[jadams_4242]

Its more than evident that the economy has impacted revenue on a Govt. basis.

I wonder if such tactics are sideline revenue creators, existence justifiers... in a direct sense towards law enforcement.

I have a buddy who is in law enforcement. I asked him once if they had a quota on tickets and such. He said they didn't.

In the back of my mind I was wondering if a law enforcement officer would actually keep their job if they never wrote a situation.

a lot of cops really do get the "power" attitude and treat even honest good upstanding citizens like trash.. its sad and absolutely wrong but thats the mentality they aquire after awhile.. when they really need to come back down to earth and use judgement from one situation to another.. a little common sense woul;d indeed be of great value for a lot of em.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Just got back from a fundraising event. My band was asked to donate our time and talent for The Relay for Life, which we willingly accepted.

The gig was out in the county. It was held at a dirt race track, which had been converted to an amphitheater type setting. Our county has alcohol restriction laws, but alcohol consumption at the event was anticipated by local law enforcement.

On my way there I went through a road block. Unfortunately, I was carrying my insurance insurance card that expired 4/2/11. My valid proof of insurance was sitting uselessly on the desk I am now typing at. ... Well there goes 150 skins. Not as bad as the $1,500 fine I would receive for actually not having insurance on the car.

To the point,

The officer asked me to pull over while he wrote the ticket. I did. While at roadside, I rifled through the car, in the happenstance my current card was actually in the car. It wasn't.

When he returned to the car to hand me the citation, we had a short conversation.

Officer: You'll need to bring your proof of insurance to the judge before the May 10th, or he will fine you $1,500.

Mudcat: Okay.

Officer: (assertively) I noticed you got your seat belt put on quickly after you parked.

Mudcat:(defensively) I was wearing it when I came through the road block and haven't taken it off, I didn't just put it on.

Office: (flatly)I hope we aren't going to have go through a back and forth over this.

Mudcat: (flatly) We don't have to go through a back and forth about it. The fact that I had my seat belt on is the truth. I know what I say won't stand up in court though. If you want to write me a ticket for something I didn't do, I can't do much about it.

Officer: Okay, you can go.

I really dunno what to make of that.

I know what I felt and I felt like the officer was trying to be dishonest.

I worked for 23 years in law enforcement, a different kind. I wrote many, many, many citations. You (as and officer) get lied to so much you just become jaded.

[frankenstein]

I took the MMPI for a law enforcement position, the Dr. "grading" the test explained the different sections and we talked about my score. He indicated that one section had to do with "trust", he stated that I was above average (the MMPI questions are poorly worded so it is not difficult to be average or above average), he said that he found this very suprising because MOST of the people he tests and approves for law enforcement score well below average in this particular category.

If his experience is true, then it would mean there is a segment of law enforcement that from the get go does not believe in innocent until proven guilty, it would also mean that these same officer are would lack in areas of exercising discretion as a officer.

[frankenstein]

LAPD officers who complained about ticket quotas are awarded $2 million

[mbh26]

I just think the entire idea of charging people money for these violations creates a conflict of interest in law enforcement. If it were really about public safety you would just put points on peoples license and not allow them to drive at some point. If they did, then you would take them to jail and build more jails if necessary. None of this racket with driver safety courses should exist because it's really not a question of knowledge. It's a question of ethics and courtesy. But perhaps my system wouldn't work that well. The dishonesty that exists in law enforcement is in my opinion a consequence of the flaws that exist in our money system. There's just too much temptation placed on whoever gets their hands on that money.

[Kenngo1969]

What do you mean how will that argument turn out in court?

I asked you about a specific argument: "I do not trust law enforcement. Therefore, when I was victimized, rather than summoning the proper authorities to deal with the situation, I determined to circumvent the system and administer justice on my own. I can I go home now, right Your Honor?"

Try that argument the next time you determine to resort to self-help, and let me know how it turns out.

It always turns out the same no matter what you say and yesterday, no matter what I did, me paying the court money. I skipped Church today mainly because I would have had to drive by their giant sting operation. It was absolutely crazy. There were groups of 4-5 officers within 800 yards of each other pulling people over and writing tickets in an assembly line fashion. For most of the year, this section of town is a war zone in a state of anarchy. You either learn to be an aggressive driver, or you get run over.

I asked him how long is a reasonable time to give traffic riding up my blind spot before I can change lanes. Well the short answer is that there never is a good time because there's always traffic. Then the officer tries to tell me that passing on the right is legal and ethical. So even if I have my blinker on for 3 or 4 cars illegally passing me on the right in town, it's my responsibility to give them 400-500 yards of open space and time to decide whether they will let me over or not. But then I can't slow down either because if someone hit me in the rear end that would be my fault too. So basically according to their view of the rules, you just can't legally change lanes in this town unless you're a police officer and have the luxury of turning your lights on and passing wherever you can squeeze your car through. That's probably part of the reason for the chaos. These people, including the police officers, don't even know the law, let alone the fact that they're not willing to respect it. Then the policeman says, "Sometimes they don't even let me over the lane I need to get into. Me!" I'd almost consider becoming a policemen for the convenience in driving perks they have alone.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Apparently, everyone but you in the city of Memphis is an unsafe driver but let the police try to do something about it and the system's just corrupt, there's no difference between the cops and the criminals, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. They're damned if they do, and they're damned if they don't. You know, you could always try something really crazy, like ... Oh, I don't know ... reading the traffic code? Nahhhh, that would never work!

I've found a very fine line between criminals and police officers. They are the same in so many ways here. They both victimize people for money. They both put a sudden fear in you like a deer in the headlights whenever you see them. They're both just as predatory. They think the same and their screwed up view of justice is often times the same. The only thing that really separates them is that one wears a badge.

I am not at all surprised law enforcement treats you the way it does. It's called a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy. Congratulations! You're a Prophet!

The predator won today. But a long time from now when he's completely forgotten why I was even upset, the prey will become the predator. You can victimize the powerless for a while and it will work out in your favor. But eventually what goes around always comes back around.

That sounds like an eminently sensible solution to the problem. Good luck with that.

[Kenngo1969]

I just think the entire idea of charging people money for these violations creates a conflict of interest in law enforcement. If it were really about public safety you would just put points on peoples license and not allow them to drive at some point. If they did, then you would take them to jail and build more jails if necessary. None of this racket with driver safety courses should exist because it's really not a question of knowledge. It's a question of ethics and courtesy. But perhaps my system wouldn't work that well. The dishonesty that exists in law enforcement is in my opinion a consequence of the flaws that exist in our money system. There's just too much temptation placed on whoever gets their hands on that money.

Abolish the whole idea of mala in se versus mala prohibita offenses! Get rid of all of this Class A, Class B, and Class C Misdemeanor and 3d Degree, 2d Degree, and 1st Degree Felony! Crime is crime! Jaywalking is theft is assault is rape is murder! It's all the same! Hooray!

[MorningStar]

My brother is a cop. I got to ride with him for a day and so did my husband. He didn't write a single ticket on either day - just warned people to be careful.

[mbh26]

Abolish the whole idea of mala in se versus mala prohibita offenses! Get rid of all of this Class A, Class B, and Class C Misdemeanor and 3d Degree, 2d Degree, and 1st Degree Felony! Crime is crime! Jaywalking is theft is assault is rape is murder! It's all the same! Hooray!

I see your point Kenngo. Is there some kind of paper trail where we can follow exactly how the money collected in all this is spent? I just don't think law enforcement should be a money making operation for government. Eliminating this incentive for the city to write tickets would improve the system. That's all I'm saying.

[mbh26]

The best example of law enforcement being about making money for whoever ultimately collects it is the ticket for wearing a seat belt or not. Who am I hurting by not wearing my seat belt? If I get paralyzed by a car accident, nobody but me or my family bears that burden. Even the insurance company can get out of paying if I don't have my sealt belt on. Trust me they're covered well and surely would never suffer any financial loss for anything even remotely close to being my fault. And yet the government is so concerned with my safety that they need to pull me over and waste my time to take money from me? No, I just can't believe it's my safety that concerns them.

[ttribe]

All this griping brings to mind a quote about "walk[ing] a mile in [their] shoes..."

[bluebell]

The best example of law enforcement being about making money for whoever ultimately collects it is the ticket for wearing a seat belt or not. Who am I hurting by not wearing my seat belt? If I get paralyzed by a car accident, nobody but me or my family bears that burden. Even the insurance company can get out of paying if I don't have my sealt belt on. Trust me they're covered well and surely would never suffer any financial loss for anything even remotely close to being my fault. And yet the government is so concerned with my safety that they need to pull me over and waste my time to take money from me? No, I just can't believe it's my safety that concerns them.

I was under the impression that whether or not to make it illegal for not wearing a seat belt was an issue that the public decides at the ballot box. I've never been in a state where the government just decided to make it a law concerning that with out the public having to vote on it.

I do get your point, i just think you might be blaming the government for something the people actually implemented.

I just have to say to, though i know it's not something the government should be concerned about per se, that any person who loves their kids, their spouse, or anyone who rides in their car, should realize that their unseat belted body, in an accident, has the potential to kill their passengers.

I read an article about a grandfather who was driving his grandson somewhere-and his grandson was seatbelted properly-who was in an accident and who killed his own grandson by colliding with him, even though he himself lived. An unseatbelted body becomes a projectile in the event of an accident and people need to take that VERY seriously.

A husband probably won't sue his wife for killing their own child in such a way, but i would sue her in a second if she killed my child while riding with her because she chose not to put on her seatbelt. Very few choices have consequences that can only harm ourselves. Too many people are too short-sighted in that regard.

I will now get off my soapbox.

Edited April 14, 2011 by bluebell

[Calm]

It could be so much better.

Of course, humans are involved.

[mbh26]

I was under the impression that whether or not to make it illegal for not wearing a seat belt was an issue that the public decides at the ballot box.

That's true. A majority can trample the rights of any man just as much as a single tyrant. I do blame the people for voting it into law, but I question whether that's exactly how this particular issue of not wearing a seat belt became an offense punishable by a fine. I should take a poll on it. Do you think most people believe that motorists should be fined for not wearing a seat belt? I'd like to see people fined for speeding, weaving, illegal parking, passing me on the right, etc. but the truth is that the most dangerous drivers on the road here ultimately don't even pay tickets if the police do bother to ticket them. At some point they impound the vehicle, but if the vehicle isn't worth much there is really nothing they can do to them. I'm sure the local police figured out long ago who to give tickets to if they wanted to make it worth their time financially. Say they haul them into jail for driving without insurance? It's still just a question of money. The state doesn't want to have to pay for their attorney and they really don't want to have to pay to house them in jail either, so the first four hours of every court session I sat through in traffic court consisted of the judge threatening each of over 300 individuals personally with revoking their bail bond if he didn't return with a lawyer. One man had over 30 moving violations in unpaid tickets and it had been over a year of appearing in court each month saying, "I just couldn't find a lawyer for the price I wanted."

I read an article about a grandfather who was driving his grandson somewhere-and his grandson was seatbelted properly-who was in an accident and who killed his own grandson by colliding with him, even though he himself lived. An unseatbelted body becomes a projectile in the event of an accident and people need to take that VERY seriously.

Now this is something I had never considered, so you did teach me something. But I can't help but point out that I was the only one in my car that day. I was on my way to lend service as a health professional at a grade school. Of course the traffic was bad and I couldn't afford to get air conditioning in my car. I was still a student. While at a stand still the officer nailed me. I didn't question him or argue, but he still wrote the ticket for as much as he possibly could. One for the government, zero for me.

[jwhitlock]

I was under the impression that whether or not to make it illegal for not wearing a seat belt was an issue that the public decides at the ballot box. I've never been in a state where the government just decided to make it a law concerning that with out the public having to vote on it.

I must disagree. I've never been aware of a seat belt initiative at the ballot box; I'm not aware of any state in which there's been a direct vote at the polls about whether to implement seat belt laws or other traffic related regulations like cell phone usage, speed limits, etc. All such things are typically implemented by government regulatory mandate.

Such initiatives, if they exist, are very much the exception and not the rule.

[bluebell]

I must disagree. I've never been aware of a seat belt initiative at the ballot box; I'm not aware of any state in which there's been a direct vote at the polls about whether to implement seat belt laws or other traffic related regulations like cell phone usage, speed limits, etc. All such things are typically implemented by government regulatory mandate.

Such initiatives, if they exist, are very much the exception and not the rule.

I guess i've happened to have lived in the two states that have had such (wyoming and montana).

[jwhitlock]

I guess i've happened to have lived in the two states that have had such (wyoming and montana).

Did they get voted down? That would be my guess, given the demographic makeup of both of those states.

Here in the east, they tell us what to do, and how much money they're going to take, and we do it and pay it.

[mbh26]

Here in the east, they tell us what to do, and how much money they're going to take, and we do it and pay it.

I know a man who was so fed up with the car insurance racket that he decided to not buy it and just weigh the costs of the tickets he got vs. actually having to pay it. I can't see that working out for someone like myself who gets ticketed for not wearing a seat belt. To really make that type of choice profitable you have to embrace the outlaw lifestyle completely, the way most inner city Memphians do.

Another good example is that after having my car windows busted to rob a $10 pair of sunglasses, I looked into putting tinted windows in since I was having to replace the windows anyway. I see thugs all over with tinted windows and it looked like a good idea to me. Then I was informed that it was illegal and I would be ticketed for having tinted windows. Apparently the police reserve the right to look into my car. But oddly enough, there are at least 3 cars belonging to neighbors of mine who have menacingly darkly tinted windows. I don't see the police man who lives above me constantly writing them tickets. Do you think I would get a ticket if I had my car windows tinted? He pretty much told me I would. Why do you think I would get ticketed for that and not the many other people who have tinted windows?

Edited April 15, 2011 by mbh26

[Nathair/|\]

I guess i've happened to have lived in the two states that have had such (wyoming and montana).

In Montana, they can't pull you over for not wearing one, but you can be ticketed if they pull you over for something else. Sadly, we have too many Ca**f****ans here who like to impose their values on us.

[bluebell]

Did they get voted down? That would be my guess, given the demographic makeup of both of those states.

Here in the east, they tell us what to do, and how much money they're going to take, and we do it and pay it.

In both states you can be ticketed for not wearing a seat belt. In wyoming they can actually pull you over for it, but in Montana, like Nathair said, they can only ticket you for that if they've pulled you over for something else.

[Duncan]

Years ago there was two incidents with LDS connections to where I am from, one was a less active with extremely active family and the other joined the Church after all this hit the fan-although it doesn't speak to dishonesty on the part of the Fuzz. Anyways the first guy was a robber and he would steal from all these places and he had a deal going with these four cops and would steal only at sites and times on their watch, so he would let them in on the take and they wouldn't arrest him, they spread it out so as not to make the boys in blue look bad and it was going for quite awhile until the robber guy ratted them out and the cops either got fired or sent to the big house. The other incident is the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Leishman

Biggest gold heist in Canadian history! the LDS connection is tha after all this stuff happened, he joined the Church here and Everyone knew who he was because his name was splattered all over the news and yadda yadda yadda. My Mom was a recent convert in the late 60's and Bro. Leishman got called to teach primary and my Mom had to orient him in his new calling and she said she was petrified of him! He was the nicest guy and all but with a sketchy past, anyways he wanted to take the primary kiddies up his plane and my Mom had to tell him, not today, not tomorrow , not ever! His kids are or were active in the Church , not around here though anymore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Canuck

I am under the impression that one of his sons was ,Ron, who was involved in the Captain Canuck phenomena

Edited April 15, 2011 by Duncan

[mbh26]

Amazing stories Duncan. I think there is a code of silence amongst law enforcement about things like this. I'm sad to say it's not just the inner city. The entire successful sitcom, "The Dukes of Hazzard," was all about corrupt law enforcement. It's the element of truth that made it so popular. Try riding through some of the small Appalachian towns I grew up in with out of state tags and not getting a ticket.

Not long ago there used to be a town called Jericho, AR. Enough people finally got so fed up with it they managed to get the power to deny Jericho's municipality. The town literally made a living off writing tickets, both just and unjust.

Edited April 15, 2011 by mbh26

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

All this griping brings to mind a quote about "walk[ing] a mile in [their] shoes..."

I understand this completely.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

All this griping brings to mind a quote about "walk[ing] a mile in [their] shoes..."

I understand this completely.