Dishonesty from Law Enforcement.

[Mudcat]

Just got back from a fundraising event. My band was asked to donate our time and talent for The Relay for Life, which we willingly accepted.

The gig was out in the county. It was held at a dirt race track, which had been converted to an amphitheater type setting. Our county has alcohol restriction laws, but alcohol consumption at the event was anticipated by local law enforcement.

On my way there I went through a road block. Unfortunately, I was carrying my insurance insurance card that expired 4/2/11. My valid proof of insurance was sitting uselessly on the desk I am now typing at. ... Well there goes 150 skins. Not as bad as the $1,500 fine I would receive for actually not having insurance on the car.

To the point,

The officer asked me to pull over while he wrote the ticket. I did. While at roadside, I rifled through the car, in the happenstance my current card was actually in the car. It wasn't.

When he returned to the car to hand me the citation, we had a short conversation.

Officer: You'll need to bring your proof of insurance to the judge before the May 10th, or he will fine you $1,500.

Mudcat: Okay.

Officer: (assertively) I noticed you got your seat belt put on quickly after you parked.

Mudcat:(defensively) I was wearing it when I came through the road block and haven't taken it off, I didn't just put it on.

Office: (flatly)I hope we aren't going to have go through a back and forth over this.

Mudcat: (flatly) We don't have to go through a back and forth about it. The fact that I had my seat belt on is the truth. I know what I say won't stand up in court though. If you want to write me a ticket for something I didn't do, I can't do much about it.

Officer: Okay, you can go.

I really dunno what to make of that.

I know what I felt and I felt like the officer was trying to be dishonest.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Mudcat

[TAO]

Yeahz, sometimes they will do this. But I guess that's what happens when so many people treat police officers rather badly. Thus, the police officers start acting like this, and the cycle doesn't end.

I am sorry that you have to pay for that ticket... or at least the insurance costs will rise... but yah... it kinda stinks that there isn't much we can do about it... wish I could. =/.

I am glad though that he finally backed off... perhaps it was because he was trying to reach his quota or something. =(

Somber Wishes,

TAO

Edited April 10, 2011 by TAO

[volgadon]

I know what I felt and I felt like the officer was trying to be dishonest.

Coming from a country where law enforcemen doesn't exactly come from the choicest stock, I'm inclined to agree with you.

[Mudcat]

Its more than evident that the economy has impacted revenue on a Govt. basis.

I wonder if such tactics are sideline revenue creators, existence justifiers... in a direct sense towards law enforcement.

I have a buddy who is in law enforcement. I asked him once if they had a quota on tickets and such. He said they didn't.

In the back of my mind I was wondering if a law enforcement officer would actually keep their job if they never wrote a situation.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Mudcat

[frankenstein]

Mudcat: (flatly) We don't have to go through a back and forth about it. The fact that I had my seat belt on is the truth. I know what I say won't stand up in court though. If you want to write me a ticket for something I didn't do, I can't do much about it.

Officer: Okay, you can go.

I really dunno what to make of that.

I know what I felt and I felt like the officer was trying to be dishonest.

There was no trying, he was being dishonest. You did exactly the right thing.

I have had police lie to me as well.

[TAO]

I have a buddy who is in law enforcement. I asked him once if they had a quota on tickets and such. He said they didn't.

You are lucky where you live then, that you are... I believe they have them in my area; am pretty sure but not 100% positive.

[blackstrap]

In fairness to law enforcement,they don't really need a quota.They could write several times the number they do each day if they stopped all the people they saw breaking the laws of seat belts,cell phones etc. I drive a older police vehicle and if I had a dollar for every driver I saw grab their seat belt when they saw me I would have more than enough to .....pay my own tickets.

[Ron Beron]

Just got back from a fundraising event. My band was asked to donate our time and talent for The Relay for Life, which we willingly accepted.

The gig was out in the county. It was held at a dirt race track, which had been converted to an amphitheater type setting. Our county has alcohol restriction laws, but alcohol consumption at the event was anticipated by local law enforcement.

On my way there I went through a road block. Unfortunately, I was carrying my insurance insurance card that expired 4/2/11. My valid proof of insurance was sitting uselessly on the desk I am now typing at. ... Well there goes 150 skins. Not as bad as the $1,500 fine I would receive for actually not having insurance on the car.

To the point,

The officer asked me to pull over while he wrote the ticket. I did. While at roadside, I rifled through the car, in the happenstance my current card was actually in the car. It wasn't.

When he returned to the car to hand me the citation, we had a short conversation.

Officer: You'll need to bring your proof of insurance to the judge before the May 10th, or he will fine you $1,500.

Mudcat: Okay.

Officer: (assertively) I noticed you got your seat belt put on quickly after you parked.

Mudcat:(defensively) I was wearing it when I came through the road block and haven't taken it off, I didn't just put it on.

Office: (flatly)I hope we aren't going to have go through a back and forth over this.

Mudcat: (flatly) We don't have to go through a back and forth about it. The fact that I had my seat belt on is the truth. I know what I say won't stand up in court though. If you want to write me a ticket for something I didn't do, I can't do much about it.

Officer: Okay, you can go.

I really dunno what to make of that.

I know what I felt and I felt like the officer was trying to be dishonest.

I have worked for awhile with cops and he wasn't being dishonest he was on a fishing expedition hoping to have you reveal something he had suspected. Since he didn't have the proof you weren't wearing the belt at the time of pullover he thought he would try and elicit a response of guilt from you. Instead you confirmed your innocence and called his bluff. Good for you. Frankly, I'm surprised that the lack of proof of insurance carried a fine. Usually, it is a "fix and show".

[mbh26]

Its more than evident that the economy has impacted revenue on a Govt. basis.

I wonder if such tactics are sideline revenue creators, existence justifiers... in a direct sense towards law enforcement.

I have a buddy who is in law enforcement. I asked him once if they had a quota on tickets and such. He said they didn't.

In the back of my mind I was wondering if a law enforcement officer would actually keep their job if they never wrote a situation.

It's totally a racket. I got a ticket today too Mudcat, along with everyone else living in Memphis. They basically were pulling everyone over for something. In my case they claimed I made an unsafe change of lanes. The so called merits of what they were out doing today, in large numbers mind you, would be laughable if it weren't so costly. See my rant over in the off topic forum of Mormon Discussions. I personally am ready to go to war over it. The only issue is whether it's a fight I can win, not whether the rights of citizens are being trampled by the sovereign. King George was probably a more reasonable authority figure to deal with than what we have right now.

So much of what is enforced or not enforced is the decision of the police officer. Even with getting tickets like the ridiculous one I got today, Memphis is still a very dangerous and rude place to drive. Since most Memphians don't pay their traffic tickets, the police are selective about who they pull over, namely they only bother to pull over someone who is actually going to have to pay. What's more sad is that if you went up and questioned them about it, they would admit that to you and be surprised you even saw anything wrong with that.

Edited April 10, 2011 by mbh26

[bluebell]

I'm surprised he wrote you a ticket for the lack of proof as well. And i agree with Ron-i don't think he was lying, i think he was suspicious and wanting you to confirm his suspiscions. I don't really blame cops for not believing people or sometimes assuming the worst since they deal with the worst daily.

Once when hubby and i were coming home from a neighboring town, hubby passed a guy on the highway and didn't exceed 68 mph (speed limit was 65). He didn't even have to take the car off of cruise control to do so (and cruise control was set with by a GPS unit). Right after we got around the guy a highway patrolman pulled hubby over and actualy gave him a ticket for speeding even though hubby had no tickets on his record at all.

We looked it up and it turned out that they aren't supposed to give tickets for less than 70 because their radar isn't that accurate. We flat out told him we woudl fight the ticket when he gave it to us so it wasn't really a surprise when hubby showed up in court and the officer didn't even bother to show up.

Cops do stupid stuff too and no doubt that sometimes they write tickets that they shouldn't write or they take a hard line when a soft approach would not have hurt anything. It's really annoying when it happens to me but i'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt since most of them are doing a job that i really appreciate, that is dangerous, and that get's little respect considering the risks they take.

[mbh26]

The ugly truth is that most Americans will never meet a worse enemy than their own government. I guess it shouldn't surprise me that there is so much dishonesty in law enforcement all the way up to the highet levels. Most people aren't very honest or fair. Law enforcement is just people who have the power to manifest their moral defects.

[Kenngo1969]

The ugly truth is that most Americans will never meet a worse enemy than their own government. I guess it shouldn't surprise me that there is so much dishonesty in law enforcement all the way up to the highet levels. Most people aren't very honest or fair. Law enforcement is just people who have the power to manifest their moral defects. (Emphasis mine).

I'm sure my father, who spent a 43-year career in law enforcement, will appreciate hearing that ... very much. Please try that argument in court the next time you are victimized by someone and decide to resort to self-help rather than summoning the proper authorities and turning the matter over to them. I would be very much interested in knowing how it turns out.

[Kenngo1969]

It's totally a racket. I got a ticket today too Mudcat, along with everyone else living in Memphis. They basically were pulling everyone over for something.

The Memphis Police Department (MPD), according to this site, has 2,072 commissioned (I believe this is the MPD's term for "sworn") officers. The 2009 population estimate for Memphis, according to Census.gov, is 676,640. Let's posit a very ungenerous estimate that only half of the citizens of the city possess drivers licenses, but say that all of them had chosen to drive on that day. That gives officers 338,320 citations to write.

Leaving aside the facts that not all of MPD's officers are patrol officers with primary responsibility for traffic enforcement and that some officers would be off duty on any given day, if every officer were pressed into duty for traffic enforcement, each one would have to write 163 tickets. That wouldn't leave them much time to do anything else. If one watches A&E's "The First 48" with any regularity, some members of MPD have actually been caught (on camera, no less) doing something other than writing traffic tickets. 135 tickets per officer would be a great number for a quarter, let alone for a single day.

Hyperbole doesn't serve your cause well.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Kenngo1969

[Messenger]

You know I’ve just come to accept that it simply depends on the state that you live in. When I lived in Oregon, every time I was pulled over I would get a ticket, even it the ticket was just plain wrong. It’s different here in Idaho. These officers actually listen and make a judgment call. But a lot of their judgment comes from your driving record.

It was just about 4 months ago I was pulled over between Rexburg and Idaho falls on Hwy 20. The officer pulled me over in a construction zone because I didn’t have a license plate on the front of my car. I explained that I didn’t know about the law, which was different from Oregon and would be happy to mount the plate when I got home. He asked for my insurance card; it was on my desk at home as it just renewed, But I couldn’t even find the expired ones in my wallet!. He asked for my registration, I couldn’t find it either! Yikes, I was going to get all kinds of tickets!

When he came back to my car, I finally did show him an expired insurance card. And just out of the blue, he said have a nice day. I told him I was sorry for not having my plate on the front, and him wasting his time to pull me over, he responded, that was his job.

That would never happen in Oregon!

[bluebell]

About three years ago the Hell's Angels picked my town to have their summer gathering in. To increase the police presence the county brought in extra law enforcement from the whole state. They had 8 times the usual amount of police in our town of 8,000 people. It was nuts-everywhere you looked there were groups of cops just standing around downtown-it felt like a police state.

Hubby also had that did not have a license on the front though he should have. I don't remember why it wasn't on there but he'd been driving for a month and had yet to be pulled over for it. The first day of the rally, hubby got pulled over 4 times in a 3 mile stretch for not having the plate! He was literally on the phone with me complaining about being pulled over for a 3rd time when i heard sirens in the background pulling him over again! He didn't get a ticket but he was more than mad when he finally got home.

The whole week the H.A. were there it was a fiasco and i think the law enforcement in the area learned a lesson about how to be strong without being a bully. It wasn't without record numbers of complaints however and some real examples of police harrassment, though nothing illegal or harmful to the public. Their intentions were good but they got lost in the application.

It's a reminder that police are human and sometimes you need to go to battle with them (in court!) but that usually there is no harm in giving them the benefit of the doubt in their sincerity, even if you still think they messed up.

[mbh26]

I'm sure my father, who spent a 43-year career in law enforcement, will appreciate hearing that ... very much. Please try that argument in court the next time you are victimized by someone and decide to resort to self-help rather than summoning the proper authorities and turning the matter over to them. I would be very much interested in knowing how it turns out.

What do you mean how will that argument turn out in court? It always turns out the same no matter what you say and yesterday, no matter what I did, me paying the court money. I skipped Church today mainly because I would have had to drive by their giant sting operation. It was absolutely crazy. There were groups of 4-5 officers within 800 yards of each other pulling people over and writing tickets in an assembly line fashion. For most of the year, this section of town is a war zone in a state of anarchy. You either learn to be an aggressive driver, or you get run over.

I asked him how long is a reasonable time to give traffic riding up my blind spot before I can change lanes. Well the short answer is that there never is a good time because there's always traffic. Then the officer tries to tell me that passing on the right is legal and ethical. So even if I have my blinker on for 3 or 4 cars illegally passing me on the right in town, it's my responsibility to give them 400-500 yards of open space and time to decide whether they will let me over or not. But then I can't slow down either because if someone hit me in the rear end that would be my fault too. So basically according to their view of the rules, you just can't legally change lanes in this town unless you're a police officer and have the luxury of turning your lights on and passing wherever you can squeeze your car through. That's probably part of the reason for the chaos. These people, including the police officers, don't even know the law, let alone the fact that they're not willing to respect it. Then the policeman says, "Sometimes they don't even let me over the lane I need to get into. Me!" I'd almost consider becoming a policemen for the convenience in driving perks they have alone.

I've found a very fine line between criminals and police officers. They are the same in so many ways here. They both victimize people for money. They both put a sudden fear in you like a deer in the headlights whenever you see them. They're both just as predatory. They think the same and their screwed up view of justice is often times the same. The only thing that really separates them is that one wears a badge.

The predator won today. But a long time from now when he's completely forgotten why I was even upset, the prey will become the predator. You can victimize the powerless for a while and it will work out in your favor. But eventually what goes around always comes back around.

[Blah]

I used to date a girl that worked for a Sheriff's office in a nearby county. You wouldn't believe some of the things the officers there were involved in, and what lengths the local government went to to cover for them.

I like to try to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt, but after hearing her stories (and my own experiences with the local PD as a teenager), it's hard for me to really trust anyone in a uniform anymore.

[thesometimesaint]

Mudcat:

Pay the fine, and keep a current insurance card in your car at all times.

[Sleeper Cell]

Just got back from a fundraising event. My band was asked to donate our time and talent for The Relay for Life, which we willingly accepted.

The gig was out in the county. It was held at a dirt race track, which had been converted to an amphitheater type setting. Our county has alcohol restriction laws, but alcohol consumption at the event was anticipated by local law enforcement.

On my way there I went through a road block. Unfortunately, I was carrying my insurance insurance card that expired 4/2/11. My valid proof of insurance was sitting uselessly on the desk I am now typing at. ... Well there goes 150 skins. Not as bad as the $1,500 fine I would receive for actually not having insurance on the car.

To the point,

The officer asked me to pull over while he wrote the ticket. I did. While at roadside, I rifled through the car, in the happenstance my current card was actually in the car. It wasn't.

When he returned to the car to hand me the citation, we had a short conversation. ...

Officer: (assertively) I noticed you got your seat belt put on quickly after you parked.

Mudcat:(defensively) I was wearing it when I came through the road block and haven't taken it off, I didn't just put it on.

Office: (flatly)I hope we aren't going to have go through a back and forth over this.

Mudcat: (flatly) We don't have to go through a back and forth about it. The fact that I had my seat belt on is the truth. I know what I say won't stand up in court though. If you want to write me a ticket for something I didn't do, I can't do much about it.

Officer: Okay, you can go.

I really dunno what to make of that.

I know what I felt and I felt like the officer was trying to be dishonest.

Generally speaking, during a “road block” operation, cops tend to give citations for infractions that they might have otherwise let go with a warning. Most judges are aware of this.

When you appear before the judge, I suggest that you bring your recently expired insurance card as well as your current one (to emphasize that the old one had only expired a few days ago and your infraction was a momentary lapse that you would have quickly corrected on your own). Also bring documentation of the fact that you were cited while on the way to donate your time and talent to a charitable event. Plead guilty and ask for leniency. The judge might reduce the fine, or even (if you are really lucky) dismiss the charge.

Couldn’t hurt to try.

As to your question, the cop was dishonest. but probably not to fill a quota. Some cops are just “badge heavy” and enjoy intimidating people.

For several years, I was a law enforcement volunteer (no arrest authority). I had the honor of working with some of the finest men and women I have ever met. Unfortunately, I sometimes ran into the other kind -- people who never should be trusted with any sort of authority. One of these was later convicted of stealing from the impound fees he was collecting.

[rpn]

1 --- First read the actual law they claim you violated. The usual offense would be driving without insurance. And you will be able to get proof from your insurance company that on the date in question you WERE so insured. If your state also has an offense of driving without a current insurance card, then it is likely not a moving violation. Just like offenses of having car lights that don't work or no license plate --- many jurisdictions will dismiss them as soon as you proof you fixed it, had the card, just not with you, etc. Sometimes they will still make you pay something.

2 ---- Courts have held that police are free to lie to anyone they are talking to, as a legitimate means of getting confessions. That is one reason why any criminal attorney will suggest you refuse to have any conversation with an officer at all. It is also why you should NEVER assume the officer is saying truth to you.

3 ---- Law Enforcement officers are hired out of the milieu of a particular community. Many people do not believe in right and wrong anymore, but expediency. Yes it is likely there are dishonest officers (leaving aside #2 above). But when there are, you will probably also recognize the overall decline in character in your community.

4 --- One of my son's went to prison for 8 months and missed the birth of his daughter because an officer coerced a witness into lying --- something that the government now admits, though has not yet compensated him for. So yea, officers do lie, and sometimes that comes for an erroneous believe that they are doing justice and anything goes in the name of justice (or protecting the blue line).

[jwhitlock]

I'm sure my father, who spent a 43-year career in law enforcement, will appreciate hearing that ... very much. Please try that argument in court the next time you are victimized by someone and decide to resort to self-help rather than summoning the proper authorities and turning the matter over to them. I would be very much interested in knowing how it turns out.

What's interesting about this thread is the amount of distrust many people have - and are willing to express - for police officers. It wasn't always like that, and there are still many good police officers out there (I've had experience with some).

But there are also far too many police officers out there who willfully abuse their positions of authority, and the number of people experiencing that abuse is growing. I've had good and bad experiences with the police, and I am someone who has several times called the police about a situation to get it resolved, and had them basically do nothing.

Police are a very public arm of the government, and growing mistrust of the police and their motives is symptomatic of the growing mistrust of government, due to a very real and growing abuse of power at all levels of government in our society. Mudcat's experience is just more evidence of that abuse.

BTW Mudcat, I also recommend that you show up and see if the $150 fine can get overturned by showing your card. That's SOP in most states in this kind of situation.

[Calm]

The ugly truth is that most Americans will never meet a worse enemy than their own government.

Possibly, but definitely not if they choose to leave the country. Then they will most likely find they had it sweet (depending on what country they go to).

[Mudcat]

I have worked for awhile with cops and he wasn't being dishonest he was on a fishing expedition hoping to have you reveal something he had suspected. Since he didn't have the proof you weren't wearing the belt at the time of pullover he thought he would try and elicit a response of guilt from you. Instead you confirmed your innocence and called his bluff. Good for you. Frankly, I'm surprised that the lack of proof of insurance carried a fine. Usually, it is a "fix and show".

I agree. At least to some extent. I think he took his fishing trip a bit to far though. IMO the fellow was being coercive and that is what bothers me. I haven't really experienced anything like that before. But there is a first time for everything I suppose.

Perhaps he was an exception to the rule. As a whole I haven't had much luck in the way of law enforcement as far as being let off the hook for something. IIRC, I did miss a speeding ticket once, because the officer got called away for a bust.

[mbh26]

Possibly, but definitely not if they choose to leave the country. Then they will most likely find they had it sweet (depending on what country they go to).

I may have believed that in the 1950s back when our country was a nation as well, not just a state. Right now, no other country is there to step up and replace America. But it needs to happen. It could be so much better. I guess I'll just hope for the millenium sooner than later.

[Garden Girl]

Okay... here's my experience...

A few years ago I was serving a Stake mission (when they still had stake missionaries). I used to go out on "splits" with the ward's full-time sister missionaries, and also with the two when they needed a third to visit a single male. We had just taught a discussion to a gentleman, and it was near their curfew. I wasn't actually speeding, but I guess as I talked animately I was weaving over the fog line and soon was pulled over. The officer approached and I rolled down my window and said... Good evening officer... he shined the light into the car and told me I was weaving, and I said... "Oh, I'm sorry, we're Mormon missionaries and have just come from teaching a lesson and were talking and I guess I weaved. I'll be more careful...

He shined his light again and we all showed him our badges and he just chuckled and said Okay, but be careful...

Another time when I was a temple worker in the Portland OR temple I was driving into Portland on two-lane Hwy 18 and came upon a slow car... I pulled around it and passed but ran out of broken line and so was over the double line when I pulled back in... I got pulled over and it was a woman officer. She came up and I rolled down my window and she asked me if I knew what I had done, and I told her... Yes, I ran out of space but I just had to get around that car (that was the last passing area for miles)... I come from the coast to work at the Mormon Temple in Portland and was running a little late and pushed it... I'll be more careful... She smiled and said Okay, but to watch it.

So, my record of not having a ticket for the past 45 years remains intact... for some reason.

GG