Garden Girl Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Do you think it unreasonable to interpret his comments as suggesting that those who leave the Church are in some way subhuman?All the Best!--ConsiglieriYes...GG
juliann Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Has anyone noticed how many are changing his comment about crawling over the BOM to crawling out of the church?
why me Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 This thread started by consig came from his heart. He was feeling a little sorry for critics who may have been offended by the crawling statement of Elder Holland. He more or less apologized to the critics at the other board for Brother Holland's statement. And so, this thread comes from his heart. Now of course,I do believe that hardboiled critics on the other board can take what Brother Holland said and I am sure that they have not been psychologically damaged by Elder Holland statement.
why me Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Has anyone noticed how many are changing his comment about crawling over the BOM to crawling out of the church?Yes, I have noticed that. It is difficult to argue with Elder Holland's contention about Joseph and Hyrum, much better to nitpick the words and cry foul in the process as the critics are now doing.
Alf O'Mega Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Has anyone noticed how many are changing his comment about crawling over the BOM to crawling out of the church?You mean this comment?. . . such persons, elect or otherwise, have been deceived and, if they leave this church, they must do so by crawling over or around or under the Book of Mormon to make their exit.I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw. The crawling is clearly toward the exit. Obviously it's an unflattering image to the leave-takers, but you don't get to the comfy chairs by flattering apostates.
structurecop Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw. The crawling is clearly toward the exit. Obviously it's an unflattering image to the leave-takers, but you don't get to the comfy chairs by flattering apostates.I was under the impression that
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Elder Holland's talk was by far the best talk I have heard in conference in over 25-years.But as I talk to others, it is beginning to bother me that he said people who leave the Church only do so by "crawling."I don't think it bothered me so much that he said they had to get "over" or "under" or "around" the Book of Mormon on the way out, but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"?It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church.Any thoughts?All the Best!--ConsiglieriI think he used it in (with) the context of the allegory that he was using. Once the mist of darkness arose (or when someone finds themselves in a mist of darkness) crawling is a natural physical reaction.
Lightbearer Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Ok I think consig would really appreciate it if every thread he posts in doesn't turn into a thread about him. Frankly I am getting tired of closing them. Take your issues to pm's please.NemesisOn the contrary I think all of his threads are intended to be about him. I also notice that when any reasonable explanation is given, as in my post #22 or CV75's excellent post #41 and some others, it is for the most part totally ignored. I think the thrill of conflict and heat of battle is what these threads are really about not any true desire of enlightenment or examination of alternative views.Respectfully submittedLightbearer
consiglieri Posted October 6, 2009 Author Posted October 6, 2009 I think the thrill of conflict and heat of battle is what these threads are really about not any true desire of enlightenment or examination of alternative views.On the contrary, LB, I congratulated the creightonian on a "HUGE insight" in post 50.All the Best!--Consiglieri (Italian for, "The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat")
Jeff K. Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 You mean this comment?I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw. The crawling is clearly toward the exit. Obviously it's an unflattering image to the leave-takers, but you don't get to the comfy chairs by flattering apostates.Should leaving God be considered flattering or put in flattering terms?More to the point, it could be that the Book of Mormon looms so large that an exit would naturally leave very little wiggle room for those who choose. It is either true and it is all true, or not.
rockslider Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 On the contrary, LB, I congratulated the creightonian on a "HUGE insight" in post 50.All the Best!--Consiglieri (Italian for, "The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat")fwit, at the time of first reading, I felt Consig's sincerity with his "huge" statement. I also agreed with both.
Alf O'Mega Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Should leaving God be considered flattering or put in flattering terms?Far be it from me to deny any believers the privilege of describing a path out of belief in unflattering terms. I was just pointing out that, a. the term crawling was indeed employed by Elder Holland to describe leaving the Church (something that Juliann disputed), and, b. the description is unflattering to those on that path (something that a number of posters in this thread have disputed).
Tchild2 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Should leaving God be considered flattering or put in flattering terms?More to the point, it could be that the Book of Mormon looms so large that an exit would naturally leave very little wiggle room for those who choose. It is either true and it is all true, or not.Leaving Mormonism isn't leaving God...just so you know Jeff K. I would hate for you to continue on believing such an erroneous and utterly ignorant belief.
Glenn101 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Leaving Mormonism isn't leaving God...just so you know Jeff K. I would hate for you to continue on believing such an erroneous and utterly ignorant belief.If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is truly the restoration of the Church that Christ established during his ministry on this earth, then when one leaves it, he/sh may not be leaving God totally, but he/she is leaving behind those things that can lead to obtaining a glory of the sun and instead allowing only for obtaining a glory of the moon or stars.Glenn
saemo Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 Yes, I have noticed that. It is difficult to argue with Elder Holland's contention about Joseph and Hyrum, much better to nitpick the words and cry foul in the process as the critics are now doing.I thought juliann was talking about the LDS members in this thread (and other threads re: the same topic).
Hoops22 Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 I was under the impression that Further evidence of my peculiar intellect that compels me to run, not walk mind you, to every post that structurecop conjures up from his fertile mind.
structurecop Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 Further evidence of my peculiar intellect that compels me to run, not walk mind you, to every post that structurecop conjures up from his fertile mind.Flattery will get you everywhere...
Hoops22 Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 Flattery will get you everywhere... It's easy to identify one as shallow as I.
Mortal Man Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 Elder Holland's talk was by far the best talk I have heard in conference in over 25-years.But as I talk to others, it is beginning to bother me that he said people who leave the Church only do so by "crawling."I don't think it bothered me so much that he said they had to get "over" or "under" or "around" the Book of Mormon on the way out, but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"?It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church.Any thoughts?They crawl because their discoveries have knocked the wind out of them.They crawl because their new knowledge has brought them to their knees.They crawl to avoid the epithets hurled at them by righteous upstanding Mormons.They crawl because they are in terrible pain.
consiglieri Posted October 7, 2009 Author Posted October 7, 2009 They crawl because their discoveries have knocked the wind out of them.They crawl because their new knowledge has brought them to their knees.They crawl to avoid the epithets hurled at them by righteous upstanding Mormons.They crawl because they are in terrible pain.They crawl because they are now classed as a subhuman species incapable of walking erect.
ttribe Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 They crawl because they are now classed as a subhuman species incapable of walking erect.Bull. No such classification was made.
Mortal Man Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 It's not that big a deal. Far worse language is used against me several times a day on various websites and message boards, and I seem to remain unharmed.Your condition is called CIPA; i.e., Congenital Insensitivity to Pain with Anhidrosis.It's a serious but manageable disease.
structurecop Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 They crawl because they are now classed as a subhuman species incapable of walking erect.Stand by for swarming bees...
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