JarMan Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 As I read this thread I couldn't help but think of Gollum in the Lord of the Rings, who was often seen crawling through the shadows. He was once a halfling like Frodo and company. But his obsession with the ring took everything from him. . . his identity, his soul, and eventually his life.
John Williams Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 It is one thing to struggle with faith, my oldest daughter is struggling with her faith. It is another to play act that one has faith, the latter is due greater condemnation. It is also an entirely distinct thing to attempt to lead others away from their faith.So there is much to consider regarding those issues. One thing I don't do is simply dismiss those who struggle. I think those who seek to undermine the faith of others should be given short shrift and challenged. I believe the apostles were also quick to dismiss those who attempted to undermine the faith of others in the New Testament.The problem is that not everyone who is struggling is play-acting or trying to lead others away from their faith. These constant accusations are really old.
Deborah Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 As I read this thread I couldn't help but think of Gollum in the Lord of the Rings, who was often seen crawling through the shadows. He was once a halfling like Frodo and company. But his obsession with the ring took everything from him. . . his identity, his soul, and eventually his life.Love this analogy. I am amused by the excitement over a word. Must be getting under someone's skin. Seriously, some people need to move on and stop obsessing over every word a prophet or apostle says.
structurecop Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Seriously, some people need to move on and stop obsessing over every word a prophet or apostle says.May I use this in my signature line?
consiglieri Posted October 5, 2009 Author Posted October 5, 2009 my oldest daughter Don't tell me you replicated.
structurecop Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Don't tell me you replicated.If she's struggling in the faith, he probably didn't replicate, just reproduced. She has her own spirit, opinions, etc.
Jeff K. Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Don't tell me you replicated.Please tell me you are incapable of it.(see I can be just as snide and off topic as you are)
jkfrost Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Don't tell me you replicated.I just replicated on the floor after reading this... replication = the repetition of an experiment in order to test the validity of its conclusion; "scientists will not believe an experimental result until they have seen at least one replication" hmmmm
Jeff K. Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Jeff K., on 05 October 2009 - 05:58 PM, said:It is one thing to struggle with faith, my oldest daughter is struggling with her faith. It is another to play act that one has faith, the latter is due greater condemnation. It is also an entirely distinct thing to attempt to lead others away from their faith.So there is much to consider regarding those issues. One thing I don't do is simply dismiss those who struggle. I think those who seek to undermine the faith of others should be given short shrift and challenged. I believe the apostles were also quick to dismiss those who attempted to undermine the faith of others in the New Testament.The problem is that not everyone who is struggling is play-acting or trying to lead others away from their faith. These constant accusations are really old. I am not accusing you, I am however speaking of personal experience regarding what I have seen. Misery loves company, and those who leave the church generally want others to do so as a way to justify their own position. It is one reason so many ex Mormons tend to be so combative regarding their position.
structurecop Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I am not accusing you, I am however speaking of personal experience regarding what I have seen. Misery loves company, and those who leave the church generally want others to do so as a way to justify their own position. It is one reason so many ex Mormons tend to be so combative regarding their position.Granted I've been out of action here until fairly recently, but I've yet to see John W "combative," although I think he has tried to be understood.
Jeff K. Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I was speaking in generalities regarding apostates. Your endorsement is noted.
ttribe Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Granted I've been out of action here until fairly recently, but I've yet to see John W "combative," although I think he has tried to be understood.I tend to agree with this.
rockslider Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I am not accusing you, I am however speaking of personal experience regarding what I have seen. Misery loves company, and those who leave the church generally want others to do so as a way to justify their own position. It is one reason so many ex Mormons tend to be so combative regarding their position.What do you suppose the reason is that defenders tend to be so combative regarding their position? Or do you not view them as being so?
ttribe Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 What do you suppose the reason is that defenders tend to be so combative regarding their position? Or do you not view them as being so?I guess it depends on which defenders you are referring to since there is no monolithic set of "defenders" out there with identical traits (just as John Williams aptly pointed out previously regarding critics).
rockslider Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I guess it depends on which defenders you are referring to since there is no monolithic set of "defenders" out there with identical traits (just as John Williams aptly pointed out previously regarding critics).It was more of a rhetorical, if the shoe fits type of question.
mercyngrace Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I guess it depends on which defenders you are referring to since there is no monolithic set of "defenders" out there with identical traits (just as John Williams aptly pointed out previously regarding critics).ttribe,When I first started posting here after lurking for a while and noting the futility of contentious exchanges, I called for a little more charity in our forum interactions and was immediately lambasted - by fellow active LDS members. It would be pointless, I suppose to note that all three members of the First Presidency spoke about LOVE in the last two days. Christ conquered the world with love. You have to wonder why some of His self-proclaimed disciples seem to think another approach would have better results.Just my .02
ttribe Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 It was more of a rhetorical, if the shoe fits type of question.Thanks for the clarification.BTW, I see that non-standard font that Structurecop was talking about as well..."Calibri size 3" it says.
ttribe Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 ttribe,When I first started posting here after lurking for a while and noting the futility of contentious exchanges, I called for a little more charity in our forum interactions and was immediately lambasted - by fellow active LDS members. It would be pointless, I suppose to note that all three members of the First Presidency spoke about LOVE in the last two days. Christ conquered the world with love. You have to wonder why some of His self-proclaimed disciples seem to think another approach would have better results.Just my .02Don't get me wrong, I know there are some who use such an approach...guilty myself from time to time. I'm just saying, again, that it isn't universal.
Nemesis Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Ok I think consig would really appreciate it if every thread he posts in doesn't turn into a thread about him. Frankly I am getting tired of closing them. Take your issues to pm's please.Nemesis
juliann Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Elder Holland's talk was by far the best talk I have heard in conference in over 25-years.But as I talk to others, it is beginning to bother me that he said people who leave the Church only do so by "crawling."I don't think it bothered me so much that he said they had to get "over" or "under" or "around" the Book of Mormon on the way out, but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"?It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church.Any thoughts?One man's pejorative is another's truth I suppose. He used strong words but he stated up front that the talk applied to "us". If someone is not "us" I don't even know why they listen let alone get ruffled feathers. Frankly, I don't give concern about dialoging and opening doors much credibility when it is framed in an accusatory manner.
John Williams Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I am not accusing you, I am however speaking of personal experience regarding what I have seen. Misery loves company, and those who leave the church generally want others to do so as a way to justify their own position. It is one reason so many ex Mormons tend to be so combative regarding their position.I didn't say you were accusing me. The current object of your disdain is duly noted. It is odd, though, to hear you complaining of other people being combative.
rockslider Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Ok I think consig would really appreciate it if every thread he posts in doesn't turn into a thread about him. Frankly I am getting tired of closing them. Take your issues to pm's please.Nemesisfun killer
Jeff K. Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Jeff K., on 05 October 2009 - 06:59 PM, said:I am not accusing you, I am however speaking of personal experience regarding what I have seen. Misery loves company, and those who leave the church generally want others to do so as a way to justify their own position. It is one reason so many ex Mormons tend to be so combative regarding their position.I didn't say you were accusing me. The current object of your disdain is duly noted. It is odd, though, to hear you complaining of other people being combative. I don't complain of people being combative, I simply know that they are. There are many ways regarding combative natures. Some are more insidious than others. The act of leading people away from the truth remains something worthy of condemnation and to be fought against whenever possible. I give short shrift to dishonest presentations.
Cold Steel Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 ...but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"? It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church. There are talks that speak to dialog and talks designed to "reprove with sharpness," and I think this was the latter. Sometimes, frankly, I think we have too many of the first and not really enough of the second. God does, after all, have two sides. One is merciful and long suffering; but people also have to realize that there is an accountability aspect. No one can deny that we have horrible prophecies hanging over this nation. The day is soon coming when the Lord will begin to move many, many thousands of people to the spirit world en mass, at a time. There is a time to preach, teach, expound and exhort, and a time to clean house. Those who leave the church should know the hand is always there for their return, but that they ultimately must be judged for their acts and decisions.All I'm saying is that there has to be a balance.
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