"Crawling" out of the Church

[Somebodyz]

Perhaps it's also describes how a member of good standings leaves, sometimes.

Slip a bit here, slid a bit there. We've all probably seen members, who we can see over a period of time, fall away from the Church. (Sometime we can spot it, before even they do) It can be slow, like a crawl, as they battle with different areas of the Church and lose their battle.

I doubt it's likely that many worthy members just leave, overnight. It's often a slow process.

[William Schryver]

Will, clearly, your goading of Consig isn't convincing him to see things your way. Time to try changing tactics.

"Goad"?

Mmmm ...

"something that urges or stimulates into action"

If that describes the efforts of trying to gently pry open his eyes to the dangers ahead, then I suppose I'm guilty as charged.

I think what you really meant was "to gall" or "to vex."

That's what I try to do to you.

[William Schryver]

Perhaps it's also describes how a member of good standings leaves, sometimes.

Slip a bit here, slid a bit there. We've all probably seen members, who we can see over a period of time, fall away from the Church. (Sometime we can spot it, before even they do) It can be slow, like a crawl, as they battle with different areas of the Church and lose their battle.

I doubt it's likely that many worthy members just leave, overnight. It's often a slow process.

I agree.

As it is written:

... the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

[Mike Reed]

It seemed to me that Holland was making reference to the movement of a certain character in the temple ceremony (live drama).

[consiglieri]

Of course you do! I don't know a disaffected or former Mormon on this board right now who isn't glad-handing our dear brother consiglieri.

I am just seeking to understand before trying to be understood.

Now, I would like to ask a little question--Can you see why somebody who has left the Church might see Elder Holland's use of the term "crawl" as less than complimentary?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[structurecop]

"Goad"?

I think what you really meant was "to gall" or "to vex."

I meant what I said. Although vex may have fit as well.

That's what I try to do to you.

Mission accomplished.

[ttribe]

Now, I would like to ask a little question--Can you see why somebody who has left the Church might see Elder Holland's use of the term "crawl" as less than complimentary?

Only if they are making an effort to find offense.

[William Schryver]

It seemed to me that Holland was making reference to the movement of a certain character in the temple ceremony (live drama).

I seriously doubt he was conscious of that comparison when he selected the word "crawl."

But I'm not surprised to see disaffected Mormons impute intent where others see none.

[structurecop]

Only if they are making an effort to find offense.

It doesn't strike me as a term one would use when seeking some kind of reconciliation. Maybe it was intended more to shore up borders than to encourage those who left to come back.

[Senator]

Only if they are making an effort to find offense.

At times I wonder if our friend Consig does not at times say the things he does merely to get a reaction. Kind of like the fun in taunting a scorpion with a stick.

[William Schryver]

consiglieri:

Can you see why somebody who has left the Church might see Elder Holland's use of the term "crawl" as less than complimentary?

Of course I can "see why." I see this kind of thing happen all the time. It is one of the most commonly occurring things I do see among exmormons and those on the road to that destination. As I just barely indicated above, I'm never surprised to see disaffected Mormons impute intent where others see none.

That said, I'm confident that Elder Holland's general approach to those he perceives to be enemies of the restored gospel is much more consistent with mine than it is with yours. I think his talk yesterday made that abundantly clear. That you, upon reflection, are beginning to find fault with certain aspects of his eloquent and inspiring address is also not surprising. I suspect, before long, you'll find a way to dismiss the parts with which you disagree just as easily as you did Elder Scott's talk. You're getting the technique down pat.

But I'll leave you folks to your little discussion now. I've got places to go and people to see ...

[jkfrost]

Well since I'm not a mind reader I wouldn't know why he used crawl. I think however, the fact that many who leave the church don't "parade" out or "march" or "skip", crawl is as good a word as any.

I have seen some skip out of Church and others get tossed out...

[Daniel Peterson]

Do you think it unreasonable to interpret his comments as suggesting that those who leave the Church are in some way subhuman?

Yes! Yes! A thousand times Yes! It's completely unreasonable. It's utterly absurd.

Though I can easily imagine that the chaste and innocent ears over on the ever-gentle Dr. Dahesh/Scratch board, completely unused to tough rhetoric as they are, might have found Elder Holland's expression a tad jarring to their tender sensibilities.

[Brenda]

I thought the word crawl was powerful. Elder Holland's testimony/knowledge of the truthfulness of the BoM, and its close connection with Christ, is so strong, that he seems to equate leaving it, to forsaking light in exchange for darkness. Since one cannot see in the dark, they are reduced to crawling.

[jkfrost]

Elder Holland's talk was by far the best talk I have heard in conference in over 25-years.

But as I talk to others, it is beginning to bother me that he said people who leave the Church only do so by "crawling."

I don't think it bothered me so much that he said they had to get "over" or "under" or "around" the Book of Mormon on the way out, but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"?

It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I believe it has to do with the idea of the book Becoming a "stumbling block"

to those who go against it.

What does that term "stumbling block" indicate? a tripping up?

One must deny the book if he is to leave the faith.

I have often thought on the words I believe he intentionally left out of his quote

from what I call Nephi's warning ( as opposed to Moroni's promise )

2 Nephi 33:10-15

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth,

hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not

in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ

ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ,

and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that

they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye-for Christ will show unto you,

with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day;

and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have

been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all,

may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

13 And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel,

and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one

crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come.

14 And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect

the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall

proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you

an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day.

15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar;

for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey.

[CV75]

It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church.

One who has stumbled, and remains unable to stand and walk, does have to resort to crawling if they want to get from point A to point B. If someone has stumbled in their faith because of their attitude toward toward the Chief Cornerstone or the keystone of our religion or any other revelation or teaching related to the "rock of offense", and does not do what it takes to strengthen their weak knees, and continues to not believe, he spiritually crawls away from (or over, under, through) those stumbling blocks.

I have heard many, many people who have repented of leaving the Church describe themselves as crawling away and/or crawling back. Knowing how I fell down just to partake of the fruit of the tree of life in the first place (1 Nephi 8:30), I know how much more would I fall down if I had tasted, then rejected it and then decided to come back. Of course such a person can't see it that way before they repent, and must feel that Elder Holland's words are offensive or mock-worthy. But that is how "intervention" usually comes across.

The talk seems to have designed for those who are hot or cold on the subject. For those who are lukewarm or unaware, the stumbling block is much more fundamental than the Book of Mormon. In that case, they are already crawling and not realizing it. Perhaps something in Elder Holland's message might call their attention as well.

[Jeff K.]

There you have it: people who leave either don't want to believe or do want to leave the church. I hope you never have someone in your family who doubts; it wouldn't help them much to blithely dismiss them the way you dismiss every other person who has ever struggled with faith.

It is one thing to struggle with faith, my oldest daughter is struggling with her faith. It is another to play act that one has faith, the latter is due greater condemnation. It is also an entirely distinct thing to attempt to lead others away from their faith.

So there is much to consider regarding those issues. One thing I don't do is simply dismiss those who struggle. I think those who seek to undermine the faith of others should be given short shrift and challenged. I believe the apostles were also quick to dismiss those who attempted to undermine the faith of others in the New Testament.

[jkfrost]

One who has stumbled, and remains unable to stand and walk, does have to resort to crawling if they want to get from point A to point B. If someone has stumbled in their faith because of their attitude toward toward the Chief Cornerstone or the keystone of our religion or any other revelation or teaching related to the "rock of offense", and does not do what it takes to strengthen their weak knees, and continues to not believe, he spiritually crawls away from (or over, under, through) those stumbling blocks.

I have heard many, many people who have repented of leaving the Church describe themselves as crawling away and/or crawling back. Knowing how I fell down just to partake of the fruit of the tree of life in the first place (1 Nephi 8:30), I know how much more would I fall down if I had tasted, then rejected it and then decided to come back. Of course such a person can't see it that way before they repent, and must feel that Elder Holland's words are offensive or mock-worthy. But that is how "intervention" usually comes across.

The talk seems to have designed for those who are hot or cold on the subject. For those who are lukewarm or unaware, the stumbling block is much more fundamental than the Book of Mormon. In that case, they are already crawling and not realizing it. Perhaps something in Elder Holland's message might call their attention as well.

This is your answer!

Well done!

[consiglieri]

Yes! Yes! A thousand times Yes! It's completely unreasonable. It's utterly absurd.

Though I can easily imagine that the chaste and innocent ears over on the ever-gentle Dr. Dahesh/Scratch board, completely unused to tough rhetoric as they are, might have found Elder Holland's expression a tad jarring to their tender sensibilities.

I think it's pretty funny that Dahascheist has taken over the board so completely as to merit it's renaming in his honor.

If all the people who have left the Church were of Dahascheist's mentality, then no verb would be excoriating enough for Elder Holland to use.

But there are so many more who do not engage in "tough rhetoric" who might be accorded more respect than the world "crawl" denotes.

And I am yet to be convinced that simply engaging in "tough rhetoric" is sufficient reason to alienate further.

Just my two-cents.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Daniel Peterson]

On the whole, I think that those who are claiming to be "alienated" by this verb, or by Elder Holland's talk in general, have either chosen to be alienated by it or, already being alienated from the Church and the Gospel altogether, are flatly feigning indignation.

It's not that big a deal. Far worse language is used against me several times a day on various websites and message boards, and I seem to remain unharmed.

[consiglieri]

Far worse language is used against me several times a day on various websites and message boards, and I seem to remain unharmed.

Yeah, but you deserve it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[creightonian]

When I first heard Elder Holland's talk I thought of this response he gave in an interview for the PBS documentary. I wondered if he felt people had been using his response as a way to defend alternative views towards the Book of Mormon and wanted to make sure everyone knew exactly where he stands n the issue. I think he left little doubt, and I for one felt a renewed desire to immerse myself in the study of the book.

"[You say] there are stark choices in beliefs about the origins of the book. Explain why there's no middle way."

... If someone can find something in the Book of Mormon, anything that they love or respond to or find dear, I applaud that and say more power to you. That's what I find, too. And that should not in any way discount somebody's liking a passage here or a passage there or the whole idea of the book, but not agreeing to its origin, its divinity. ...

I think you'd be as aware as I am that that we have many people who are members of the church who do not have some burning conviction as to its origins, who have some other feeling about it that is not as committed to foundational statements and the premises of Mormonism. But we're not going to invite somebody out of the church over that any more than we would anything else about degrees of belief or steps of hope or steps of conviction. ... We would say: "This is the way I see it, and this is the faith I have; this is the foundation on which I'm going forward. If I can help you work toward that I'd be glad to, but I don't love you less; I don't distance you more; I don't say you're unacceptable to me as a person or even as a Latter-day Saint if you can't make that step or move to the beat of that drum." ... We really don't want to sound smug. We don't want to seem uncompromising and insensitive.

[Calm]

But there are so many more who do not engage in "tough rhetoric" who might be accorded more respect than the world "crawl" denotes.

I shall be sure not to use it in the future to describe my grandchildren's movements, I don't want them to think I don't respect them.

[Jeff K.]

Would it be considered prejorative that we crawl to the Lord to ask forgiveness?

Given the gift of the Atonement, I don't think so.

Do we crawl over the Book of Mormon to leave the church?

Give the gift of the Book of Mormon, Yes we do.

Neither is prejorative but they most certainly characterize accurately what occurs.

[consiglieri]

When I first heard Elder Holland's talk I thought of this response he gave in an interview for the PBS documentary.

HUGE insight!

Thanks.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri