ttribe Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Personal anecdotes of how individual family members or others have treated apostates are not documentation of the church teaching such things. In fact as I said before people often misinterpret the reactions of others or may only relate what they think someone else wants to hear. Where has the church taught that those who leave the church should be treated in such away? The church has taught over an over to be patient with and not reject those who leave but keep the door open. I
juliann Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Where has the church taught that those who leave the church should be treated in such away? The church has taught over an over to be patient with and not reject those who leave but keep the door open. Are we up to the fifth or sixth request for this? John apparently does not understand what the act of looking at a source and citing it entails. That means that you have to find an article, a lesson, anything put out to the membership that says this. Your disdainful accusations are not even relevant to what the church actually does...let along proof of anything except your inability to read church teachings and cut and paste.Whenever the brethren say anything that implies that those who leave the church are liars, have low integrity, are not to be trusted or crawl around--many of those who leave the Church will suffer daily because of how they are treated by those who believe they are low and evil.Still waiting for you to produce evidence that the church believes people who leave the church are low and evil. Prove it. Produce something besides chatter.
juliann Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I think such people who spend their days in seeking to tear down the faith of others because they have lost their own are despicable. Most people who leave the church do not participate in such behavior. And those who do shouldn't wonder why others may not feel overly friendly toward them.This is where John will scramble to pretend that those who leave the church are the same as active apostates who seek to destroy the church. ZZZzzzzzzzzz
structurecop Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 This is where John will scramble to pretend that those who leave the church are the same as active apostates who seek to destroy the church. ZZZzzzzzzzzzDoes BYU distinguish between former members and active apostates?
SoBenign Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 wow for a moment there I forgot what this thread was about... Had to read the heading twice.I read the transcript of JRH's talk.I've been trying to find the video on youtube (loads easier)But all I hear on the audio is Osama Bin Laden speaking about how the infidels are deceived and must be killed. It's in their one and true Holy Book, you know.Oh, I kid!On a serious note - my real problem with this talk is fundamentally contrary to the teachings of that guy you call Jesus.His emphatic speech instills a pride in believers (Pride goeth before the fall)and causes these pharisees to look down on those with different views.Ya'll must have higher brain functions than us simple folk, Er hyuck hyuck we just ain't got around to it, after all our lovin sin and carnal fleshyness, we aint't got no time to save our souls! Er we just ain't asked the man upstairs in the right way I guess.This attitude does not engender love.This attitude instills fear in questioning ones own religion to be sure that it is true.it is amazing how this church as evolved from the apostles in the early years proudly exclaiming that their religion can stand up to scrutiny from the pulpit- and to go ahead and look - To televised fear mongering; insecure that if they even get a whiff of another opinion, their eternal soul will be lost. If it's true...how can those anti-mormon propaganda lies do anything to your faith?No no! don't look or you're weak!
Deborah Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 it is amazing how this church as evolved from the apostles in the early years proudly exclaiming that their religion can stand up to scrutiny from the pulpit- and to go ahead and look - To televised fear mongering; insecure that if they even get a whiff of another opinion, their eternal soul will be lost. What planet do you live on? If you've spent any time on this forum you know nothing is further from the truth.
Euthyphro Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 It's rather rich that you compare Lightbearer to a Puritan witch-burner, when it is precisely that vein of Calvinism that your current belief is derived from.In other words, when it comes to burning, by witchhunters, inquisitors, clansmen and the heatmiser of the bible himself, LDS can't really hold a candle to you guys historically.SilverKnight, you don't know anything about my current belief, except that I interpret Matthew differently from LightBearer. Even if I were a Calvinist, I don't think it's fair to foist sins of fathers upon their sons. However, if you think something I've said could be read to mean I'd like to burn someone, then by all means call it to my attention.
Avatar4321 Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 wow for a moment there I forgot what this thread was about... Had to read the heading twice.I read the transcript of JRH's talk.I've been trying to find the video on youtube (loads easier)But all I hear on the audio is Osama Bin Laden speaking about how the infidels are deceived and must be killed. It's in their one and true Holy Book, you know.Oh, I kid!On a serious note - my real problem with this talk is fundamentally contrary to the teachings of that guy you call Jesus.His emphatic speech instills a pride in believers (Pride goeth before the fall)and causes these pharisees to look down on those with different views.Ya'll must have higher brain functions than us simple folk, Er hyuck hyuck we just ain't got around to it, after all our lovin sin and carnal fleshyness, we aint't got no time to save our souls! Er we just ain't asked the man upstairs in the right way I guess.This attitude does not engender love.This attitude instills fear in questioning ones own religion to be sure that it is true.it is amazing how this church as evolved from the apostles in the early years proudly exclaiming that their religion can stand up to scrutiny from the pulpit- and to go ahead and look - To televised fear mongering; insecure that if they even get a whiff of another opinion, their eternal soul will be lost. If it's true...how can those anti-mormon propaganda lies do anything to your faith?No no! don't look or you're weak!What on earth are you rambling about?
Pahoran Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 wow for a moment there I forgot what this thread was about... Had to read the heading twice.I read the transcript of JRH's talk.I've been trying to find the video on youtube (loads easier)But all I hear on the audio is Osama Bin Laden speaking about how the infidels are deceived and must be killed. It's in their one and true Holy Book, you know.Oh, I kid!On a serious note - my real problem with this talk is fundamentally contrary to the teachings of that guy you call Jesus.His emphatic speech instills a pride in believers (Pride goeth before the fall)and causes these pharisees to look down on those with different views.Ya'll must have higher brain functions than us simple folk, Er hyuck hyuck we just ain't got around to it, after all our lovin sin and carnal fleshyness, we aint't got no time to save our souls! Er we just ain't asked the man upstairs in the right way I guess.This attitude does not engender love.This attitude instills fear in questioning ones own religion to be sure that it is true.it is amazing how this church as evolved from the apostles in the early years proudly exclaiming that their religion can stand up to scrutiny from the pulpit- and to go ahead and look - To televised fear mongering; insecure that if they even get a whiff of another opinion, their eternal soul will be lost. If it's true...how can those anti-mormon propaganda lies do anything to your faith?No no! don't look or you're weak!Call for references, please. Where does Elder Holland say anything even remotely similar to your disdainful, incoherent ramblings?Regards,Pahoran
Lightbearer Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I didn't think it would insult you.Oh really? Perhaps you assumed I was too ignorant or unlearned to understand who you were referring to?What's left is to learn which of us is doing the scattering and which the gathering. Obviously one of us will be surprised to learn of Jesus' true nature when we meet Him at last. I believe He will have enough grace for both of us. It's a shame that what I believe wouldn't comfort you.Inasmuch as LDS are commissioned to gather Israel then I am quite sure of my position. I am not sure what you believe, that is between you and God. And as for surprises at the judgement, yes I think there will be enough surprises to go around for all. Furthermore, as for anyone taking offense at Elder Holland's talk, saying that he was being unkind or uncharitable, I would just remind all what the Lord has said about chastisement:(Hebrews 12:5-11) "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."When the Lord through His servants calls us to repentance we have one of two choices: Repent or Rebel. Now every man or woman must choose for themselves what they will believe, and so we note on this board some receive the word of God with joy and others will be offended and rage against it.
Wiki Wonka Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Ya'll must have higher brain functions than us simple folk, Er hyuck hyuck we just ain't got around to it, after all our lovin sin and carnal fleshyness, we aint't got no time to save our souls! Er we just ain't asked the man upstairs in the right way I guess.Where did you come up with this garbage?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Just thought I would say that, as always, Jeffrey R. Holland's talk is powerful, well thought out, insightful, etc. etc. etc. He is both a moving and a persuasive speaker, his logic excellent. Plus, I always love his topics! I do always feel the Spirit when he talks. Love it!
Nemesis Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 wow for a moment there I forgot what this thread was about... Had to read the heading twice.I read the transcript of JRH's talk.I've been trying to find the video on youtube (loads easier)But all I hear on the audio is Osama Bin Laden speaking about how the infidels are deceived and must be killed. It's in their one and true Holy Book, you know.Oh, I kid!On a serious note - my real problem with this talk is fundamentally contrary to the teachings of that guy you call Jesus.His emphatic speech instills a pride in believers (Pride goeth before the fall)and causes these pharisees to look down on those with different views.Ya'll must have higher brain functions than us simple folk, Er hyuck hyuck we just ain't got around to it, after all our lovin sin and carnal fleshyness, we aint't got no time to save our souls! Er we just ain't asked the man upstairs in the right way I guess.This attitude does not engender love.This attitude instills fear in questioning ones own religion to be sure that it is true.it is amazing how this church as evolved from the apostles in the early years proudly exclaiming that their religion can stand up to scrutiny from the pulpit- and to go ahead and look - To televised fear mongering; insecure that if they even get a whiff of another opinion, their eternal soul will be lost. If it's true...how can those anti-mormon propaganda lies do anything to your faith?No no! don't look or you're weak!You are already on your way out. Nemesis
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I read the transcript of JRH's talk.I've been trying to find the video on youtube (loads easier)But all I hear on the audio is Osama Bin Laden speaking about how the infidels are deceived and must be killed. It's in their one and true Holy Book, you know.Oh, I kid!No you don't...you are trying to use humor (badly I might add) to say what you mean. This is a very old tactic.Waiting for an apology.
lostindc Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Fair enough, but are you really defending LoaP by comparing him to Scratch? I am no more responsible for the writings of Scratch then you are responsible for the ravings of Lostindc.More personal attacks, at some point you need to stop insulting posters and Church leaders and start providing evidence to back your claims.
lostindc Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 It has been the Mormon's fate to be persecuted, as it has been since they crawled out of Missouri. John requested a CFR on anything he said that is inflamatoryhttp://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/45672-the-arrow-has-hit-its-mark/
John Larsen Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 John requested a CFR on anything he said that is inflamatoryhttp://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/45672-the-arrow-has-hit-its-mark/No, no. I issued a challenge to find anything I said that was defamatory. I say inflammatory thing all of the time. The two are very, very different. Although they do rhyme.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 No, no. I issued a challenge to find anything I said that was defamatory. I say inflammatory thing all of the time. The two are very, very different. Although they do rhyme.When a whole body of people are deprived of their property and driven from the state or be annihilated, and you say they "crawled" out of the state, I'd call that defamatory.
John Larsen Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 When a whole body of people are deprived of their property and driven from the state or be annihilated, and you say they "crawled" out of the state, I'd call that defamatory.Sigh.
SoBenign Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 SoBenign: I disagree. It's your right to disagree as it is mine. Thank you for your simplicity.What planet do you live on? If you've spent any time on this forum you know nothing is further from the truth.I've spent time in this forum. I have also spend most of my life as an active member of the church, holding many callings. it is because of my own personal experience that I have made these conclusions for myself. I do not push these beliefs on anyone any more than any of your posts. You read it, you form your own independent opinion, and then move on the same way I do.What on earth are you rambling about?I am sorry I was so derisive in my last post. I will make my opinion more clear in a moment.Call for references, please. Where does Elder Holland say anything even remotely similar to your disdainful, incoherent ramblings?Regards,PahoranJRH's talkBut there is one kind of latter-day destruction that has always sounded to me more personal than public, more individual than collective
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Sigh.I followed the link and now understand that you deliberately used the word in a context that Mormons would find offensive so as to convey why you think Elder Holland's use of the term was offensive. I don't know that you succeeded, but at least I understand what you were going for.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I am sorry you are offended by my opinion. If I were talking in a Muslim Forum, disagreeing with their religious leaders. The response would be the same. By contrast, how are they wrong?Incoherent.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Odds on Danna returning to the discussion? She has posted on the other board as recently as last night at 9ish.Why does Danna keep beating the drum about whether the account of the martyrdom in History of the Church is an eyewitness account? It's my understanding the account therein is based on John Taylor's eye-witness recollection.
ttribe Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Why does Danna keep beating the drum about whether the account of the martyrdom in History of the Church is an eyewitness account? It's my understanding the account therein is based on John Taylor's eye-witness recollection.Correct, but it's unreliable because, well...because it's John Taylor, right?
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