Zakuska Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Why does Danna keep beating the drum about whether the account of the martyrdom in History of the Church is an eyewitness account? It's my understanding the account therein is based on John Taylor's eye-witness recollection.Is Danna beating her drum some wheres else that Im not privy too?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Correct, but it's unreliable because, well...because it's John Taylor, right?Yeah, I know what you're saying.I should have said it is his detailed eyewitness recollection. Among other things, John Taylor was a journalist
Lightbearer Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I've spent time in this forum. I have also spend most of my life as an active member of the church, holding many callings. it is because of my own personal experience that I have made these conclusions for myself. I do not push these beliefs on anyone any more than any of your posts. You read it, you form your own independent opinion, and then move on the same way I do.You are a disingenuous "bomb thrower" you come in here and declare all your points from the "apostate 101" manual, now you have come up with your personal conclusions (which obviously are superior to ours) and are not here to push your beliefs on anyone else... then why are you here? I openly admit that I am here to try to convince people that the Church is true and to defend it against gainsayers who are trying to destroy it.I am sorry I was so derisive in my last post. I will make my opinion more clear in a moment.Oh you are sorry because you are dangerously close to being banded for those disgusting comparisons you made in a previous post of an apostle of God to a murderous terrorist thug. You meant exactly what you said, and your opinion is quite clear.But there is one kind of latter-day destruction that has always sounded to me more personal than public, more individual than collective
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Is Danna beating her drum some wheres else that Im not privy too?After she left here, she went back to the Shady Rest and posted there on a thread that was started by Dan Peterson's malevolent stalker.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Why does Danna keep beating the drum about whether the account of the martyrdom in History of the Church is an eyewitness account? It's my understanding the account therein is based on John Taylor's eye-witness recollection.Danna was saying she doesn't trust the HC so I found another primary source, the account of Dan Jones, and posted it in this thread. This effectively proved Danna's assertions to be incorrect. Danna never came back.
ttribe Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Danna was saying she doesn't trust the HC so I found another primary source, the account of Dan Jones, and posted it in this thread. This effectively proved Danna's assertions to be incorrect. Danna never came back.I must have missed it...did she provide some justification for not trusting the HC?
SoBenign Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 You are a disingenuous "bomb thrower" you come in here and declare all your points from the "apostate 101" manual, now you have come up with your personal conclusions (which obviously are superior to ours) and are not here to push your beliefs on anyone else... then why are you here? I openly admit that I am here to try to convince people that the Church is true and to defend it against gainsayers who are trying to destroy it.Oh you are sorry because you are dangerously close to being banded for those disgusting comparisons you made in a previous post of an apostle of God to a murderous terrorist thug. You meant exactly what you said, and your opinion is quite clear.Thank you for insulting me. I never said that "I am Right, and how dare you for being wrong" You did, so who's the bomb thrower?It's none of your business, but I am here to see what I was. My comparisons are to illustrate my point of sameness in all religion. I'm pretty sure however disgusting it is, many more people in this world regard Bin Laden as a hero. I do not. I am making a point. Just because you are reading church approved material does not mean Satan cannot overcome you. Pride and the overall lack of humility you exhibit in your posts is enough for God to deny you access to His spirit. He is not pleased when you lift your heel against the Lord's anointed. You and hundreds on more like you that heard or read Elder Holland's talk were cut to the heart, that is why you/they rage against it. Yes it would have been easier to give the "pleasing word of God, but I think the time is short and it is needful that everyone be warned and stirred up to repentance. There you go again accusing me of not trying hard enough. Maybe I should elaborate. When I was 11, I was molested. I felt so guilty about letting it happen to me I pulled out and ate most of my hairline, instead of getting therapy, my mother and bishop suggested I turn to the Lord. and I did. Believe me, I wanted to find peace and comfort more than anyone I have ever known. I was in anguish that it never came. Somehow, having to see the perpetrator on a daily basis didn't help. Aparantly, Bishops aren't legally obligated to report things like this, so he never was punished, save 3 months w/o the sacrament.. Funny... I've been studying apostate 101 and I couldn't find that chapter...That is not true, he said: "one cannot come to full faith in this latter-day work- and thereby find the fullest measure of peace and comfort..." That is not discounting that peace and comfort cannot come from other sources, but to receive a fullness it must come from the Kingdom of God. I am sure you can find all the comfort and support you need among those RFM and other groups of apostates that wear out their lives trying to bolster their own ego and give credibility to themselves by trying to deny the testimony of the spirit of God.it seems kind of funny, but in my head, all I hear is "I've got more peace than you-u dooo, I've got more comfort than you'll e-ever ha-ave" this is the tone in which I take thatNo you deceived yourself into thinking that God would answer someone in open rebellion against Him. You must ask with real intent, having faith in Christ or you will not receive an answer, and if your ground is not prepared you will not hear when He speaks. My sheep hear my voice. As for your taunting "don't look" (I assume you refer to Anti-Mormon bilge) I can look at any of the garbage that the Anti-Mormons can cook up but to me it means nothing because I KNOW the truth and though all hell and demons in the flesh may rage and froth against it... they cannot contradict it or overcome it.My "open rebellion" came years after my real intent.Not at all, prophets of God are often accused of being angry or judgmental by those who are guilty and do not obey the commandments of the Lord. As for previous talks of loving your neighbor I suggest you read the following: Love and LawThou doth protest to much!I read that talk too...not so much help to me.
Zakuska Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 After she left here, she went back to the Shady Rest and posted there on a thread that was started by Dan Peterson's malevolent stalker.Shady Rest? Whats that?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Danna was saying she doesn't trust the HC so I found another primary source, the account of Dan Jones, and posted it in this thread. This effectively proved Danna's assertions to be incorrect. Danna never came back.Dan Jones's account is a good one. But I don't know who could be more reliable than John Taylor, who was with the Prophet throughout the ordeal and was seriously wounded when the mob stormed the jail and murdered Joseph and Hyrum. Who is Danna, a person on an Internet board casting asperions under cover of anonymity, that anyone should care what she does or does not trust?
Zakuska Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 MDBAh ok... which level of Hell does she inhabit these days?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Shady Rest? Whats that?Dr. Shades's board. It's home base for the malevolent stalker and other assorted characters who have gotten themselves booted off the FAIR/MADB board.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Here's an example of her dismissing the HC and D&C 135 as reliable sources on the martyrdom. Crickey!You have not been reading my posts!I actually said that Holland said Hyrum read and dog-eared the book before leaving for Carthage! Go back and see!As to the 'hour of their death' quote I was quoting Elder Holland. Whose talk I have listened to a number of times, and I have transcribed portions of it.My point was, that given only D&C 135 claims to be eyewitness testimony, the assertion of Book of Mormon study in Carthage Jail is not supported! (along with the consequential assertions that this is 'proof' that Joseph's account of the origin of the Book of Mormon is correct)OK. Can you give me a unequivocal primary source that indicates that AT Carthage, Hyrum read the Book of Mormon and discussed it with Joseph, and that Joseph bore his testimony of it?If you can, I will be only too happy to accept that Joseph went to his death with a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.I provided a primary source that is about as "unequivocal" as they come ( but who knows what she even meant by that qualification; she doesn't seem to be familiar with any formal methods of historiography). You can read the firsthand statement of witness Dan Jones here. Danna said once such a source was provided she would be "only too happy to accept that Joseph went to his death with a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon." She hasn't posted on the board since shortly before the Dan Jones example was provided, though. At this point she basically has three options: She could never return to the board, she could come back and admit her mistakes and live up to her word to "accept" the testimony of the eyewitnesses, or she could come back and equivocate over what she meant or try to malign Dan Jones's testimony as she has Elder Holland's and John Taylor's.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Here's an example of her dismissing the HC and D&C 135 as reliable sources on the martyrdom. I provided a primary source that is about as "unequivocal" as they come ( but who knows what she even meant by that qualification; she doesn't seem to be familiar with any formal methods of historiography). You can read the firsthand statement of witness Dan Jones here. Danna said once such a source was provided she would be "only too happy to accept that Joseph went to his death with a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon." She hasn't posted on the board since shortly before the Dan Jones example was provided, though. At this point she basically has three options: She could never return to the board, she could come back and admit her mistakes and live up to her word to "accept" the testimony of the eyewitnesses, or she could come back and equivocate over what she meant or try to malign Dan Jones's testimony as she has Elder Holland's and John Taylor's.She's been trying to save face ever since you neutralized her would-be expose alleging Elder Holland lied about the copy of the Book of Mormon he held up during conference. Kind of morbidly fascinating to watch -- in a train-wreck sort of way.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 As an aside, Danna and other critics appear to misunderstand Elder Holland's argument anyway, so this is a good opportunity to talk about logic. For convenience, some of the following is borrowed directly from wikipedia since my argumentation and logic book is at home. I don't know why, but Danna and others seem to think Elder Holland was making a deductive argument as opposed to an inductive one. They suppose Elder Holland is saying something like: "Since JS read from the BoM and testified of it shortly before he died, this proves the BoM is true!" This isn;t the argument that Elder Holland made. I believe Elder Holland was pretty clearly making an inductive argument, and there is an important difference. (For convenience, some of the following is borrowed directly from wikipedia since my argumentation and logic book is at home.) Inductive argument: Moving from a set of specific facts to a general conclusion.Such an argument is usually a generalized statement based on specific evidence (a "best-accounting" for available data). Elder Holland is arguing "A good case can be made that Joseph Smith believed in the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon based on his specific behavior shortly before the martyrdom and their personal beliefs about God."Specific facts are used to create a theory that explains relationships between these facts. This allows for approximate prediction of future, or for approximate understanding of the past. The premises of an inductive logical argument indicate a degree of support (or inductive probability) for the conclusion. But they do not entail it; in other words, they do not ensure its truth. So again, Elder Holland made an inductive argument based on what he knows about the martyrdom. He considered Joseph's testimony of the book while incarcerated and expecting death. He noted him and his brother finding solace in the book. He noted the powerful message of the Book of Mormon. He drew the conclusion (without "proving it" or demanding adherence to his theory) that Joseph Smith believed in the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I believe it is a sound inductive argument.The best Danna has done is attempt to call the witness statements unreliable because she wasn't sure of their provenance. Dan Jones's witness statement is one that shows her objection does not overturn Holland's inductive argument. *edited for clarity.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 She's been trying to save face ever since you neutralized her would-be expose alleging Elder Holland lied about the copy of the Book of Mormon he held up during conference. Kind of morbidly fascinating to watch -- in a train-wreck sort of way.Yeah, she hopped from the "wrong book" argument to the "lying about other stuff" argument pretty quickly. It has been interesting to watch this anti-Mormon argument go from birth to death, only to see the creator of the myth refuse to acknowledge the deficiency of the myth when it is made as plain as day. And then to see her arguments crop up on other forums. It reminds me of that scene in the film Doubt where the priest talks about the woman who gossiped. She was advised to go on a roof and cut open a pillow and watch the feathers fly in the wind. Then she was to gather them up...
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Yeah, she hopped from the "wrong book" argument to the "lying about other stuff" argument pretty quickly. It has been interesting to watch this anti-Mormon argument go from birth to death, only to see the creator of the myth refuse to acknowledge the deficiency of the myth when it is made as plain as day. And then to see her arguments crop up on other forums. For that reason, I'm glad the Deseret News did its page 1 piece last week explaining the provenance of the book Elder Holland displayed and distinguishing between that copy and the one donated to the Church History Department three years ago. With that, and your blog posts, in the archival record, it should be fairly easy to set people straight on this matter. You've rendered a real service in debunking a myth almost before it got going.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Still feels a little like gathering feathers, nevertheless.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Still feels a little like gathering feathers, nevertheless. It will ever be so with anti-Mormon sophistry. I'm afraid it's a cross we must bear.
mfbukowski Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 When I was 11, I was molested. I felt so guilty about letting it happen to me I pulled out and ate most of my hairline, instead of getting therapy, my mother and bishop suggested I turn to the Lord. and I did. Believe me, I wanted to find peace and comfort more than anyone I have ever known. I was in anguish that it never came. Somehow, having to see the perpetrator on a daily basis didn't help. Aparantly, Bishops aren't legally obligated to report things like this, so he never was punished, save 3 months w/o the sacrament.. That is definitely not church policy, and if true, that bishop was totally wrong. I suggest you bring it up with the present bishop so you both can get some resolution on the issue. It still is obviously causing you major problems.
Daniel Peterson Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Bump for Danna.I want to help out with the bump, though I believe that Danna may have retreated to the more congenial climate of the Dr. Dahesh board.Incidentally, are you still burning with rage?I certainly am. In fact, I believe it can be properly said that I'm seething with wrath.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 I'm going to spend some time reading the following article, and in the meantime I am bumping this for Danna. http://www.bukisa.com/articles/139683_what-can-you-do-when-you-feel-angry
ttribe Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 I'm going to spend some time reading the following article, and in the meantime I am bumping this for Danna. http://www.bukisa.com/articles/139683_what-can-you-do-when-you-feel-angryYou now have two threads devoted to you over "there"...you must feel honored.
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