The weight of the golden plates

[Sevenbak]

Picture this - Joseph, carrying the plates wrapped in his linen smock top - which readily creates a sort of sack (think of a moderate weight denim, extra long shirt) If he has the plates in his hands and someone attacks from behind, natural behavior is to swing around. The plates would most likely catch the guy full on the chest. Now, I don't know about you, but I think if someone hit me straight in the chest with 40-60 lbs, I'd drop like a rock and be down for a while struggling to breathe. Which gives Joseph time to run off into the darkness, probably not certain if the attacker is completely out of the picture or just stunned.

He also dislocated his thumb, using his fist in defense. Both the plate bundle and Joseph's fist would dissuade me.

[Tchild2]

Like I previously intimated, when Tchild2 has spoken, all the thinking has been done. No need to say any more. After all, you have lifted weights for decades, and are thus the ultimate expert on what could or could not have happened in the woods of upstate upstate New York about 190 years ago, and you have the biceps to prove it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Not only was Joseph Smith a near diety, he was superman too, leaping tall bounds with a single leap. Two posts and still nothing of substance. You could go for three?

[Tchild2]

If I remember correctly, Tchild2 claimed 20 years of gym-style weight lifting. If that's correct I got him by a decade (yeah, I know, my age is showing). I move 45 lb plates (& larger dumbells) for about 1 hr five days a week. They are heavy-- I don't deny it. At my age I'd have a hard time running very far, but I once (in my mid twenties) ran through an airport to catch a plane with a 50 lb (approx.) pound kid over my shoulder.

Oh...over your shoulder? Well that isn't the same because the load is distributed over the body. I have done the same running to an airplane late. I definitely was lumbering, but probably not fast enough to outrun someone chasing me, but you probably were, because you are a strong farmboy.

Now Tchild2 claims that J couldn't have carried the plates this way because they were compact, dense, square, & wrapped in a cloth. This is an assumption. We don't know how thick the cloth was, how many times it was wrapped around the plates-- it could have served as a knap-sack. We just don't know.

We are talking about "running at top speed" and jumping. As you say, go get a video and prove it. Or bet me that you can outrun me, and I will take the video and your money.

And as I've already pointed out numerous times, we don't know that J ran more than a few yards to get away from an assailant he had cold-cocked. Besides, we have no idea if he went Billy-Jack on them and kicked them in the gut or groin while holding the plates in his arms. JS, by all accounts, was a physically powerful young man. With some direction from God (and gee, hasn't God preformed more incredible miracles than this?) and adreniline pumping, the task would have been difficult but certainly not impossible.

Sure, Joseph could have stopped and played five card draw, but unfortunately, the record is mute on five card draw and stopping to "cold ****" his hidden assailants, and wrastlin' and anything else Joseph might have done, but failed to mention.

[Stargazer]

Even the strongest, biggest, running back in the NFL wouldn't be able to get very far carrying a 60 pound + (the LOW end of the ESTIMATED weight of the plates) weight tucked under his arm. Jumping over things and evading capture? You're kidding right? Didn't Joseph also have a bum leg from infection in his youth?

Either way, Brother Joseph was amazing and once again way ahead of his time. Perhaps if he were around today he would be a star in the NFL. Instead of EMMITT Smith holding the career rushing record, it would be JOSEPH Smith's name in the record book.

And of course, he would be playing for the SAINTS!!

You and TChild2 are driving me nuts. I admit, not a long drive, but are you guys SERIOUS? You can go down to Gold's Gym and hold silly contests over who can carry a weight the farthest if you want to, but I spent three freaking years in the leg infantry, and 70 lb loads were what we were expected to hump, and be able to fight while carrying it. I remember the fun of carrying an 81mm mortar baseplate in my arms, a fully-loaded ALICE-Large pack on my back, and an M16A2 slung on my back plus 120 rds of 5.56mm ammo in pouches, up a stinking hill, in the dark, over broken terrain and after a mile humping that sucker helped dig a mortar firing position.

I think a New England farm boy of the 1820's could manage an occasional trek with a hunk of metal without any trouble at all. You guys are straining at gnats and swallowing camels. Plus have a look at this guy:

Go ahead. Claim he can't carry a few pounds of metal plates while fighting off ambushers.

[Sevenbak]

unfortunately, the record is mute on five card draw and stopping to "cold ****" his hidden assailants...

Dude, give it up. You're making yourself look bad. Wiki is apparently not your friend.

"Knocking the man down with a single punch, Joseph ran as fast as he could for about a half mile before he was attacked by a second man trying to get the plates. After similarly overpowering the man, Joseph continued to run, but before he reached the house, a third man hit him with a gun. In striking the last man, Joseph said, he injured his thumb."[91] He returned home with a dislocated thumb and other minor injuries.[92] Smith sent his father, Joseph Knight, and Josiah Stowell to search for the pursuers, but they found no one."

[Tchild2]

Dude, give it up. You're making yourself look bad. Wiki is apparently not your friend.

How so? By being skeptical of a claim of holding compact golden plates weighing up to 60 lbs, running at top speed and fighting off hidden assailants? If the story was different than claimed and material facts unknown, then perhaps Joseph performed something less than what we are talking about. I don't know, because that isn't what the narrative claims.

"Knocking the man down with a single punch, Joseph ran as fast as he could for about a half mile before he was attacked by a second man trying to get the plates. After similarly overpowering the man, Joseph continued to run, but before he reached the house, a third man hit him with a gun. In striking the last man, Joseph said, he injured his thumb."[91] He returned home with a dislocated thumb and other minor injuries.[92] Smith sent his father, Joseph Knight, and Josiah Stowell to search for the pursuers, but they found no one."

Ran as fast as he could for half a mile? Now who is looking bad?

Hey, any lurkers out there. Don't take my silly word for it. When you have a quiet moment, grab a dumbell in the 50-60 range and imagine pulling your best Jim Brown (great running back) moves.

P.S. For the experiment, you can take off your frock and try cover the dumbell and to fashion a shoulder strap to sling over your shoulder if it makes the comparison a bit easier.

[Sevenbak]

He didn't say he ran a sprint a half mile, nor did he say he ran at top speed. It says he ran as fast as he could. That accounts for the plates, as "he could" is obviously a disclaimer.

This is getting entertaining. Thanks.

[krose]

Plus have a look at this guy:

Go ahead. Claim he can't carry a few pounds of metal plates while fighting off ambushers.

Don't you mean this guy?

[MAsh]

Oh...over your shoulder? Well that isn't the same because the load is distributed over the body. I have done the same running to an airplane late. I definitely was lumbering, but probably not fast enough to outrun someone chasing me, but you probably were, because you are a strong farmboy.

Please show me where J said he was being "chased."

We are talking about "running at top speed" and jumping.

I dealt with this in my first post. Repeating this as if I haven't already addressed it is silly.

As you say, go get a video and prove it. Or bet me that you can outrun me, and I will take the video and your money.

Could I outrun you with sixty pounds if I cold-cocked you first? You're the one who keeps insisting that J-- by way of a LATE SECOND HAND ACCOUNT-- claims that he was running at top speed the entire time while being chased by assailants. I also see you didn't address your egregious claim that Lucy was wrong about the "fundamentals" of the story.

Sure, Joseph could have stopped and played five card draw, but unfortunately, the record is mute on five card draw and stopping to "cold ****" his hidden assailants, and wrastlin' and anything else Joseph might have done, but failed to mention.

That's the whole point! Lucy-- LUCY, I remind you, not Joseph-- DOESN'T say! She doesn't say a lot of things. She may have misrememberd the details. She may have embellished a bit because she was so proud that her son took on some bad guys who tried to take away the plates. She might have chosen some ambiguous (or wrong) words to tell us the details. She wasn't there & she doesn't give us all of the details of what did or didn't happen.

Returning to the fundamentals.... Are you claiming that a strong farm boy (known to whip butts in wrestling matches) couldn't have hurriedly carried a 60 lb stack of metal plates (in a cloth) through the forest and fought of more than one attacker? Are you claiming this is impossible or even highly improbable? If not, then Lucy's story can be "fundamentally" correct and believable. If you think that the "fundamentals" are highly improbable or impossible, then I guess we've reached an impasse.

[why me]

Brad?

Brad?

Brad is sitting in the middle row, eating popcorn and watching the show with the other trolls.

[Ceeboo]

Brad is sitting in the middle row, eating popcorn and watching the show with the other trolls.

POPCORN !!!!!!!!!

We Catholics LOVE popcorn !!!

Hey, can one of you trolls pass the popcorn to us Catholics in the back row???

[charity's child]

How so? By being skeptical of a claim of holding compact golden plates weighing up to 60 lbs, running at top speed and fighting off hidden assailants? If the story was different than claimed and material facts unknown, then perhaps Joseph performed something less than what we are talking about. I don't know, because that isn't what the narrative claims.

Ran as fast as he could for half a mile? Now who is looking bad?

Hey, any lurkers out there. Don't take my silly word for it. When you have a quiet moment, grab a dumbell in the 50-60 range and imagine pulling your best Jim Brown (great running back) moves.

P.S. For the experiment, you can take off your frock and try cover the dumbell and to fashion a shoulder strap to sling over your shoulder if it makes the comparison a bit easier.

I still say the majority of Americans of today are wusses and cannot compete with a 19th century farmboy (obviously this does not include our men & women in uniform - they know what it is to really work for survival). So it doesn't matter how many gym-members try your experiment. Unless you can find someone who spends 12 hours a day pulling stumps, moving rocks, digging, ploughing, chopping-pitching-stacking wood, and other similar work, then in his spare time wrestles and pulls sticks, you aren't going to get a reasonable comparison.

Really, TC, just because you can't do something is not evidence that someone else can't. I'll bet there are a lot of things you can't do - that athletes do on a regular basis. And even they can't compete with a pre-mechanized farmboy.

[krose]

Even better than the speculation that a person would have exceptional strength simply by virtue of being a "19th-century farm boy" (something we modern softies just wouldn't understand), and that the pursuers were probably really weak because of their assumed activities of smoking and drinking, is the idea that an attacker might easily be "knocked out" by a single punch or blow, like in a Hollywood movie (maybe he broke beer bottles over their heads).

I also like that they attacked him one by one instead of in a group, like those martial arts movies where each bad guy politely waits his turn so the hero can take on all ten people, one at a time.

[Garden Girl]

He didn't say he ran a sprint a half mile, nor did he say he ran at top speed. It says he ran as fast as he could. That accounts for the plates, as "he could" is obviously a disclaimer.

This is getting entertaining. Thanks.

Exactly... he ran "as fast as he could." There was nothing said about running at "top speed" or jumping logs as he would a hurdle.

How fast was he able to run? As fast as he could (while carrying an estimated weight of 40-50 lbs that's how fast).

GG

[krose]

I still say the majority of Americans of today are wusses and cannot compete with a 19th century farmboy (obviously this does not include our men & women in uniform - they know what it is to really work for survival). So it doesn't matter how many gym-members try your experiment. Unless you can find someone who spends 12 hours a day pulling stumps, moving rocks, digging, ploughing, chopping-pitching-stacking wood, and other similar work, then in his spare time wrestles and pulls sticks, you aren't going to get a reasonable comparison.

Really, TC, just because you can't do something is not evidence that someone else can't. I'll bet there are a lot of things you can't do - that athletes do on a regular basis. And even they can't compete with a pre-mechanized farmboy.

CC, how much time have you spent on a farm, to get the idea that it's a life of constantly performing Herculean tasks from dawn till dark?

Sure, there's always work to be done, but most of the time it's mundane jobs, like repairing fences, weeding, and clearing ditches. Clearing land (of brush, trees and rocks) only needs to be done when you are converting new land. Fence building is an occasional task. Plowing is only done once (maybe twice) a season. It's not -- and never has been -- constant back-breaking labor.

The only real difference between my farming days and my 19th-century grandfather's is that we had a little tractor to pull our equipment, while he had horses.

[Jaybear]

Dude, give it up. You're making yourself look bad.

One of the fascinating aspects of this board, is the realization that two people can be presented the same facts, filter those facts by their preexisting beliefs, and come to diametrically opposite conclusions.

Its my impression that the story .... Smith running in the woods, fighting off a gang of ruffians intent on stealing the golden plates, all the while carry 60 lbs of plates under his arm ... is facially absurd. In my view, it has the same ring of credibilty as a Paul Dunn war story.

Moreover, its my impression is that its the apologists with their superstrong farmboy theory, and their trained soldier carrying a backpack analogy that are truly embarrassing themselves.

In the back of my mind, however, is the nagging suspicion that the apologists are not being candid and genuine in stating their belief. I am thinking that they know the story is truly absurd, but are afraid to say so out load, out of concern that such an acknowledgment may hamper their testimony or the testimony of others.

I say this because none of the apologists here are chomping at the bit, to prove TChild is the idiot that you all say he is, by filming themselves or a strong farm boy friend, running and jumping in the woods while carrying 60lbs of metal plates under the arms.

So are there any genuine and gung ho apologist, ready to go out and prove that Tchild is the fool that you perceive him to be?

[krose]

Exactly... he ran "as fast as he could." There was nothing said about running at "top speed" or jumping logs as he would a hurdle.

How fast was he able to run? As fast as he could (while carrying an estimated weight of 40-50 lbs that's how fast).

But fast enough to outrun more than one unburdened pursuer.

[mledbetter]

What material difference would it make? Please elaborate. What does the rod matter, or the fact that the weights are round and not squared like the plates? The principals of the physics involved are the same. Unless you can show otherwise, you are arguing against the absolute non essentials.

Went to the history museum to watch a presentation by a WWII vet who served under Patton. Name was Arnold Whitaker. He made it pretty clear that a 19 year old could have pretty amazing strength and speed when he's scared. For instance you would be pretty amazed at how fast a 19 year old kid can run when carrying another soldier on his back while getting shot at. Another story, he was trying to dig a fox hole in the frozen ground, had been working for well over an hour and only had about a helmet sized hole dug when some screaming me-me's came in. A dud landed so close to him that he could hear it hissing in the snow. He said it took him less time to dig a full sized fox hole than it did to dig that helmet sized hole he was previously working on. It's actually amazing what strength a young man can show when the adrenaline is going.

[Stargazer]

Its my impression that the story .... Smith running in the woods, fighting off a gang of ruffians intent on stealing the golden plates, all the while carry 60 lbs of plates under his arm ... is facially absurd. In my view, it has the same ring of credibilty as a Paul Dunn war story.

What, never had to carry a mortar baseplate through the woods, Jaybear?

Moreover, its my impression is that its the apologists with their superstrong farmboy theory, and their trained soldier carrying a backpack analogy that are truly embarrassing themselves.

Farmboy Alvin York defeating several German machine gun nests and capturing their crews singlehandedly with a single-shot rifle comes to mind.

I say this because none of the apologists here are chomping at the bit, to prove TChild is the idiot that you all say he is, by filming themselves or a strong farm boy friend, running and jumping in the woods while carrying 60lbs of metal plates under the arms.

So are there any genuine and gung ho apologist, ready to go out and prove that Tchild is the fool that you perceive him to be?

I'm thirty years older than he was and about 100 lbs overweight with a bad back. So gung ho or not I'm not going to be a good demonstrator, but when those factors were different I was fully capable of doing what you suggest. Smith didn't do something that hasn't been done before and by people carrying even more than he was.

History is full of things that normal people did under extraordinary circumstances, all with some fools later who react with disbelief saying it couldn't be done and it must have been a trick, a lie, or an illusion.

But maybe we can initiate an annual event out of it. Call it the Plate Run, and invite pros and cons to compete.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Hey, why are you guys arguing the maximum weight? What if the plates were 40 pounds?

[wenglund]

Not only was Joseph Smith a near diety, he was superman too, leaping tall bounds with a single leap. Two posts and still nothing of substance. You could go for three?

I haven't been in a gym for years, and so I have no hope of providing the kind of enviable substance, let alone substance at all, that you are renown for here--the above being just a sampling of the kinds of ironically piercing insights that you alone can offer given the multiple decades you've spent lifting weights.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tchild2]

Hey, why are you guys arguing the maximum weight? What if the plates were 40 pounds?

That is a good point. The lowest range estimate was 30 lbs. by, I believe, Joseph Smith Sr. who claimed to have weighed them at 30 lbs. Others, more than a few put the weight in the 50-60 lb range. I think if the alleged plates had been in the 30-40 lb range, we wouldn't have much of anything to debate based on what Lucy Mack Smith reported and we would be on another subject, moreso at 30 lbs.

When I started into this thread, I made a simple observation from my trips to the gym comparing weights I regularly use to the estimates of the plates because they were similiarly close. I simply opined that a person, if the chance presented, could grab a 45-60 lb weight to try and experience what it would be like to have to move in the manner that Lucy Mack Smith stated was related to her by J.S., per her recollections.

As a skeptic, one who doubts with extreme vigor the claims of real gold plates having ever existed or having ever been in the possession of J.S. I believed this story to be a minor example of showing such a reality. To me anyway, the story reflects mostly, Joseph Smith prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view; because they were so valuable and sought after by evil men, that he (J.S) had to constantly be on his guard and that others were constantly seeking to steal them from him. Now, if plates never existed, and you wanted to pretend they did for the sake of others, a story like this is part of the "prepping" to control how and when the plates are witnessed by others just enough to satisfy so that others would believe.

Secondly, the story, if the plates never existed, illustrates that in Joseph's "prepping" stories, he was really unfamiliar with the physics of carrying very heavy plates, and never really thought about the physical realities of outrunning assailants. Of course, this is all based on the recollections of Lucy Mack Smith, which if were incorrect, embellished, or simply not remembered in full, then there isn't much to discuss because the speculate possibilities could go in every direction, and material facts about running from assailants (if plates really existed) could be very plausible and believable.

That is all

[Tchild2]

.

I haven't been in a gym for years, and so I have no hope of providing the kind of enviable substance, let alone substance at all, that you are renown for here--the above being just a sampling of the kinds of ironically piercing insights that you alone can offer given the multiple decades you've spent lifting weights. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

#3 useless post. I bet you could make it a half a dozen before this thread ends, because that is just the kind of substantive guy you are Wade.

[wenglund]

Went to the history museum to watch a presentation by a WWII vet who served under Patton. Name was Arnold Whitaker. He made it pretty clear that a 19 year old could have pretty amazing strength and speed when he's scared. For instance you would be pretty amazed at how fast a 19 year old kid can run when carrying another soldier on his back while getting shot at. Another story, he was trying to dig a fox hole in the frozen ground, had been working for well over an hour and only had about a helmet sized hole dug when some screaming me-me's came in. A dud landed so close to him that he could hear it hissing in the snow. He said it took him less time to dig a full sized fox hole than it did to dig that helmet sized hole he was previously working on. It's actually amazing what strength a young man can show when the adrenaline is going.

That story, and many others like it, are obviously an absurd fabrication that could not possibly have happened. Just ask Jaybear and Tchild2. 20 years working out in the gym gives at least Tchild2 unquestioning authority to say so. Krose can indisputably back this up since he grew up on a farm about 175 years after the incident in question.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tchild2]

That story, and many others like it, are obviously an absurd fabrication that could not possibly have happened. Just ask Jaybear and Tchild2. 20 years working out in the gym gives at least Tchild2 unquestioning authority to say so. Krose can indisputably back this up since he grew up on a farm about 175 years after the incident in question.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I offer a falsifiable test, unlike the claims of the plates. You can go and prove to yourself in private or with a videorecorder if you like and you can prove me wrong. If someone can outrun, or merely run for a relative distance (lets say 100 yards) with a 50-60 lb weight, you can prove me wrong in your own mind or on tape and I will stand corrected.

After years and years of religious claims that cannot be tested, I know it is unfamiliar territory for you Wade, and maybe is a bit threatening for you?

#4 I knew we would get a half dozen insubstantive posts from you Wade. You didn't let me down when I first predicted it and I thank you for helping me look good in my prophetic abilities.