The weight of the golden plates

[Brad]

Hello everyone,

The other day I came upon a replica of the golden plates that was made out of lead, and the weight of them was about 100 pounds or so. Guests were allowed to pick it up, and when I did, i wasn't able to move very fast at all...I found myself inching across the room....and that's with lead plates. Gold plates would have been about 70-80 pounds heavier. I'm just wondering, how would Joseph Smith be able to carry this? I'm a pretty big guy (I played offensive line, and I still weigh about 290 or so), and yet there is no way I would have been able to outrun anyone, like it says Joseph Smith did.

I've heard some LDS apologists argue that the plates had to of not been pure gold, However, this argument overlooks Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were "filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."

I've also heard people say that he must have been empowered by God. There are no claims to my knowledge from anyone of this, from Joseph, or from anyone else who saw them.

[Sevenbak]

Hello everyone,

The other day I came upon a replica of the golden plates that was made out of lead, and the weight of them was about 100 pounds or so. Guests were allowed to pick it up, and when I did, i wasn't able to move very fast at all...I found myself inching across the room....and that's with lead plates. Gold plates would have been about 70-80 pounds heavier. I'm just wondering, how would Joseph Smith be able to carry this? I'm a pretty big guy (I played offensive line, and I still weigh about 290 or so), and yet there is no way I would have been able to outrun anyone, like it says Joseph Smith did.

I've heard some LDS apologists argue that the plates had to of not been pure gold, However, this argument overlooks Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were "filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."

I've also heard people say that he must have been empowered by God. There are no claims to my knowledge from anyone of this, from Joseph, or from anyone else who saw them.

The witnesses who hefted the plates estimated them to be lighter than that, roughly 50-60 lbs.

"weighing altogether from forty to sixty lbs."[7] â??Martin Harris

"I was permitted to lift them. . . . They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgement."[8] â??William Smith

"I . . . judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds."[9]â??William Smith

"They were much heavier than a stone, and very much heavier than wood. . . . As near as I could tell, about sixty pounds."[10] â??William Smith

"I hefted the plates, and I knew from the heft that they were lead or gold."[11] â??Martin Harris

"My daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the glass-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them."[12] â??Martin Harris

"I moved them from place to place on the table, as it was necessary in doing my work."[13] â??Emma Smith

Joseph's sister Catherine, while she was dusting in the room where he had been translating, "hefted those plates [which were covered with a cloth] and found them very heavy."[14] â??H. S. Salisbury, paraphrasing Catherine Smith Salisbury

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/An...d_plates#Weight

[LeSellers]

I've heard some LDS apologists argue that the plates had to of not been pure gold, However, this argument overlooks Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were "filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."

Look at your cherry-picked passage again. The plates in question were not the plates Joseph Smith Translated, and had nothing to do with those Moroni showed him. At least you identified them as "Jaredite plates", but the unspoken implication is that these were the same (kind of) plates Joseph had in his possession. They plainly were not.

This kind of attack is par for the anti-mormon course.

Lehi

[Sevenbak]

Look at your cherry-picked passage again. The plates in question were not the plates Joseph Smith Translated, and had nothing to do with those Moroni showed him. At least you identified them as "Jaredite plates", but the unspoken implication is that these were the same (kind of) plates Joseph had in his possession. They plainly were not.

This kind of attack is par for the anti-mormon course.

Lehi

Agreed. Anyone with google can verify there were witnesses to their weight, so either the poster was rehashing old anti garbage, or he/she didn't bother to check first.

[ERMD]

Hello everyone,

The other day I came upon a replica of the golden plates that was made out of lead, and the weight of them was about 100 pounds or so. Guests were allowed to pick it up, and when I did, i wasn't able to move very fast at all...I found myself inching across the room....and that's with lead plates. Gold plates would have been about 70-80 pounds heavier. I'm just wondering, how would Joseph Smith be able to carry this? I'm a pretty big guy (I played offensive line, and I still weigh about 290 or so), and yet there is no way I would have been able to outrun anyone, like it says Joseph Smith did.

I've heard some LDS apologists argue that the plates had to of not been pure gold, However, this argument overlooks Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were "filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."

I've also heard people say that he must have been empowered by God. There are no claims to my knowledge from anyone of this, from Joseph, or from anyone else who saw them.

So you just happened upon this "replica?"

What makes you think that gold plates would have been 70-80 lbs. heavier?

Where was this "replica?" Any pictures?

[Calm]

Hello everyone,

The other day I came upon a replica of the golden plates that was made out of lead, and the weight of them was about 100 pounds or so. Guests were allowed to pick it u.

I am curious as to where this replica was and why it was made as well as how...how thin were the pages, etc....

[Moon Quaker]

I'm guessing that this replica was either at the church history museum or I believe that Utah Lighthouse Ministries has such a "replica."

In any case, I'm guessing that the plates had to have been blessed by the Lord. Surely the malleability was like unto gold, but perhaps its weight was became like unto titanium whenever JS was on the run. If angels can help people push handcarts, why not help JS carry the gold plates. That'd make a great painting for the church history museum; JS carrying the plates under his arm with angels on each side helping to carry the plates.

[sethpayne]

Hello everyone,

The other day I came upon a replica of the golden plates that was made out of lead, and the weight of them was about 100 pounds or so. Guests were allowed to pick it up, and when I did, i wasn't able to move very fast at all...I found myself inching across the room....and that's with lead plates. Gold plates would have been about 70-80 pounds heavier. I'm just wondering, how would Joseph Smith be able to carry this? I'm a pretty big guy (I played offensive line, and I still weigh about 290 or so), and yet there is no way I would have been able to outrun anyone, like it says Joseph Smith did.

I've heard some LDS apologists argue that the plates had to of not been pure gold, However, this argument overlooks Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were "filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."

I've also heard people say that he must have been empowered by God. There are no claims to my knowledge from anyone of this, from Joseph, or from anyone else who saw them.

Color me stupid but I always thought the plates "had the appearance of gold" and were not, necessarily, made of gold.

[Sevenbak]

I am curious as to where this replica was and why it was made as well as how...how thin were the pages, etc....

The only replica I've ever seen is in the Grandin Print shop in Palmyra, where the Church has it and some first edition BOM's on display, among other things.

[thesometimesaint]

Sixty pounds is heavy, but not all that heavy for someone used to hard physical labor.

[mnn727]

It was not a solid chunk of gold -- thats where the anti-LDS argument goes horribly wrong, they were sheets - think thick tin foil sheets.

[Tchild2]

The witnesses who hefted the plates estimated them to be lighter than that, roughly 50-60 lbs.

"weighing altogether from forty to sixty lbs."[7] â??Martin Harris

"I was permitted to lift them. . . . They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgement."[8] â??William Smith

"I . . . judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds."[9]â??William Smith

"They were much heavier than a stone, and very much heavier than wood. . . . As near as I could tell, about sixty pounds."[10] â??William Smith

"I hefted the plates, and I knew from the heft that they were lead or gold."[11] â??Martin Harris

"My daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the glass-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them."[12] â??Martin Harris

"I moved them from place to place on the table, as it was necessary in doing my work."[13] â??Emma Smith

Joseph's sister Catherine, while she was dusting in the room where he had been translating, "hefted those plates [which were covered with a cloth] and found them very heavy."[14] â??H. S. Salisbury, paraphrasing Catherine Smith Salisbury

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/An...d_plates#Weight

At Gold's gym, the largest common plate weight is a 45 lb pound monster (they actually have 100 pounders for leg lifts). If the gold plates weighed 40-60 lbs, and the plates were as compacted (more compact actually) as that 45 lb lifting weight, then you can easily test how difficult it would be to move around carrying such a weight.

For fun, grab the sixty pound dumbell (To test the upper limit of the weight guestimate) and see how well you can move around. The dumbell is shaped to carry in the hand and is symetrical, whereas the plates wouldn't have been as much. The plates (or lead equivalents) in a box would be very difficult to hold and move at any increased speed or distance even at the 50-60 lb range.

[ERMD]

Brad?

Brad?

[crickets/]

[Traela]

At Gold's gym, the largest common plate weight is a 45 lb pound monster (they actually have 100 pounders for leg lifts). If the gold plates weighed 40-60 lbs, and the plates were as compacted (more compact actually) as that 45 lb lifting weight, then you can easily test how difficult it would be to move around carrying such a weight.

For fun, grab the sixty pound dumbell (To test the upper limit of the weight guestimate) and see how well you can move around. The dumbell is shaped to carry in the hand and is symetrical, whereas the plates wouldn't have been as much. The plates (or lead equivalents) in a box would be very difficult to hold and move at any increased speed or distance even at the 50-60 lb range.

But remember, JS was a 19th century farm boy. He would have been used to hauling heavy weights around. Remember in The Long Winter when Pa carried a heavy bag of wheat home, while he was starving? And it was mentioned that it would have been shameful for him NOT to be able to carry that much. So a young, healthy man running while carrying "only" 70 lbs doesn't sound all that far-fetched to me.

[Tchild2]

But remember, JS was a 19th century farm boy. He would have been used to hauling heavy weights around. Remember in The Long Winter when Pa carried a heavy bag of wheat home, while he was starving? And it was mentioned that it would have been shameful for him NOT to be able to carry that much. So a young, healthy man running while carrying "only" 70 lbs doesn't sound all that far-fetched to me.

It isn't that sixty pounds is difficult to carry if the weight is evenly distributed on the body (like a military rucksack or backpack), it is the ability to run or walk fast with a disproportionate weight in the front of the body, occuping the hands and arms in a carrying stance. You need your arms freed to run effectively.

Not saying that it is imposible, only, if you find yourself in a weight room, grab the sixty pound barbell and give it a try at running. The barbell would actually be easier than a box without a handle.

[Ceeboo]

You need your arms freed to run effectively.

Hi Tchild2,

Hmmmm, I always imagined the feet being freed were more important to run effectively.

Sorry!! ( One of those nights on my end of the internet )

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Anijen]

It isn't that sixty pounds is difficult to carry if the weight is evenly distributed on the body (like a military rucksack or backpack), it is the ability to run or walk fast with a disproportionate weight in the front of the body, occuping the hands and arms in a carrying stance. You need your arms freed to run effectively.

Not saying that it is imposible, only, if you find yourself in a weight room, grab the sixty pound barbell and give it a try at running. The barbell would actually be easier than a box without a handle.

Can be done.

First, they weren't solid Gold but had the appearance.

Second, eighty pounds was the most someone thought they weighed, the average was 40- 60 lbs.

Third, mailmen carry an average of 35 lbs a day with some having walked up and down hills for 9-12 miles a route, some of these mailmen are known to run their routes. This average goes way up on ADVO day (Tues).

Fourth, Joseph was in great shape and was very strong and more than likely had a satchel bag to carry them.

Well you get the picture...

[LeSellers]

The barbell would actually be easier than a box without a handle.

CFR that the plates were in "a box without a handle".

As I recall, the plates were not covered by or with anything until several days later when he took his linen frock (shirt) and wrapped them up in it after taking the plates from a cavity in a dead tree where he had hidden them the night he actually got them from Moroni.

Using the rings as a handle, he could easily have carried them, even while sprinting from one hiding place to another that night. There is no evidence that he ran any significant distance at one go. And there is no too much to say that he did more than jog when we has running unless actively being chased by the very men who claimed he didn't have any plates in the first place.

Lehi

[Tchild2]

Can be done.

Well, I lift weights almost every day, and have done so for twenty years. When I grab the 60 lb dumbell, or even the 45 lb plate, I walk very awkardly, and with a bit of difficulty. Of course I am only carrying the weights from the case to the bench, so my distance isn't very far.

First, they weren't solid Gold but had the appearance.

What does that have to do with the estimated weight of 40-60 lbs?

Second, eighty pounds was the most someone thought they weighed, the average was 40- 60 lbs.

Right, which are the amounts I am using with the comparisons on gym plates and barbells (45-60 lbs)

Third, mailmen carry an average of 35 lbs a day with some having walked up and down hills for 9-12 miles a route, some of these mailmen are known to run their routes. This average goes way up on ADVO day (Tues).

Right, and U.S. servicemen have military backpacks pushing 80-100 lbs. Remember, it is the load distribution that is crucial, not the overall weight. Did Joseph Smith build a golden plates backpack?

Fourth, Joseph was in great shape and was very strong and more than likely had a satchel bag to carry them.

So am I, weighing 230 lbs and a twenty year weightlighter. Not impossible to carry, or to move a few dozen feet rapidly, but for long distances? Like I said, try a weightroom barbell when the opportunity presents itself.

[Sevenbak]

Can be done.

First, they weren't solid Gold but had the appearance.

Second, eighty pounds was the most someone thought they weighed, the average was 40- 60 lbs.

Third, mailmen carry an average of 35 lbs a day with some having walked up and down hills for 9-12 miles a route, some of these mailmen are known to run their routes. This average goes way up on ADVO day (Tues).

Fourth, Joseph was in great shape and was very strong and more than likely had a satchel bag to carry them.

Well you get the picture...

Plus, the only time I'm aware of when had to run with the plates, was the night be brought them back from the hill, 3 miles away. 3 men attacked him at various points along the route, while he carried the plates wrapped up something linen, I think. He fought them off, dislocating his thumb, etc.

His mother said he was out of breath when he got back, and had to lean on the fence to regain his strength and breath before even coming into the house.

[Sevenbak]

Not impossible to carry, or to move a few dozen feet rapidly, but for long distances?

This is yet another reason why the LGT doesn't work well for me. Moroni was alone. Walking that far through hostile territory with that great a burden seems very problematic.

[Anijen]

try a weightroom barbell when the opportunity presents itself.

I did for twelve years before I went into management. I was one who ran my nine mile route on a daily basis with an average of a 35 lb satchel and since I had 942 deliveries on my route that same satchel weighed approximately 55 lbs every Tuesday.

[Tchild2]

CFR that the plates were in "a box without a handle".

Is that a serious CFR? I have never heard mention of a handle, but I have of a box? Do you have a CFR of a box with a handle?

As I recall, the plates were not covered by or with anything until several days later when he took his linen frock (shirt) and wrapped them up in it after taking the plates from a cavity in a dead tree where he had hidden them the night he actually got them from Moroni.

Which would make them even more difficult to carry.

Using the rings as a handle, he could easily have carried them, even while sprinting from one hiding place to another that night. There is no evidence that he ran any significant distance at one go. And there is no too much to say that he did more than jog when we has running unless actively being chased by the very men who claimed he didn't have any plates in the first place.

Now we have a good argument. If the rings would support the weight of plates, even under the increased stresses created by running, then grasping the plates by the rings and running might actually work. However, since tumbaga is made of soft metals, the rings could potentially be rather malleable.

As for the "evidence" of running with the plates.

"The plates were secreted about three miles from home...Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home."After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house." (Lucy Mack Smith, mother of Joseph Smith, in Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, 1853, pp. 104-105; Comp. reprinted edition by Bookcraft Publishers in 1956 under the title History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, pp. 107- 108) Emphasis added.

[Bytor]

Hmm....maybe the Lord strengthened him so that he could accomplish the task.

[Garden Girl]

Color me stupid but I always thought the plates "had the appearance of gold" and were not, necessarily, made of gold.

Can be done.

First, they weren't solid Gold but had the appearance.

Second, eighty pounds was the most someone thought they weighed, the average was 40- 60 lbs.

Third, mailmen carry an average of 35 lbs a day with some having walked up and down hills for 9-12 miles a route, some of these mailmen are known to run their routes. This average goes way up on ADVO day (Tues).

I was going to mention the "having the appearance of gold".

I have a female relative that worked for UPS for years as a delivery person... she had to carry the same weight as the men... up to 75 pounds... most of her deliveries were the upper end of the weight... and had time constraints for her deliveries, including climbing stairs. As she neared retirement, the weight was going to be raised even higher.

GG