The weight of the golden plates

[wenglund]

My LDS friends,

Give it up. There is nothing more indisputable than the forensics of a long-time Gold's Gym attendee. If Tchild2 says it can't be done, then udoubtably it can't be done. Time to turn in your church resignation notices and begin instead working out at your local health club. Lifting dumbells for decades will give you whatever insights you will ever need in matters of religious faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tchild2]

My LDS friends,

Give it up. There is nothing more indisputable than the forensics of a long-time Gold's Gym attendee. If Tchild2 says it can't be done, then udoubtably it can't be done. Time to turn in your church resignation notices and begin instead working out at your local health club. Lifting dumbells for decades will give you whatever insights you will ever need in matters of religious faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I thought you might chime in Wade. If you have something substantive to add, please do so knowing your input will be received thoughtfully and respectfully. That is what balanced dialog is about isn't it?

Of course, any person here at any time could take me up on my little experiment. It is so incredibly simple and costs nothing. All you have to do is grab a 60lb dumbell, walk a few steps with it, then think to yourself, "how in the h#ll did Joseph Smith fight off, outrun...or run at all, with this monster amount of weight in his hand(s) or "tucked under his arm"? Oh, you could try and "tuck" a 60 lb dumbell under your arm as an experiment also. Hopefully the latter won't tear any skin.

[ERayR]

As a former farm boy myself, I think many people here are overplaying that angle as a reason to attribute exceptional strength to a person. Sure, I used to be able to carry two bales of hay at once, and throw them up on top of a stack on the truck. But there is no way I could compete in strength with the football players who spent their days in the weight room, and I certainly couldn't run faster than the guys down the road who spent their weekends partying hard.

And yet our soldiers can do it and are expected to do it day in and day out in the heat of the middle east.

My LDS friends,Give it up. There is nothing more indisputable than the forensics of a long-time Gold's Gym attendee. If Tchild2 says it can't be done, then udoubtably it can't be done. Time to turn in your church resignation notices and begin instead working out at your local health club. Lifting dumbells for decades will give you whatever insights you will ever need in matters of religious faith. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I will have to be stuck in ignorance as I am unable to afford the gym membership.

[wenglund]

I thought you might chime in Wade. If you have something substantive to add, please do so knowing your input will be received thoughtfully and respectfully. That is what balanced dialog is about isn't it?

Of course, any person here at any time could take me up on my little experiment. It is so incredibly simple and costs nothing. All you have to do is grab a 60lb dumbell, walk a few steps with it, then think to yourself, "how in the h#ll did Joseph Smith fight off, outrun...or run at all, with this monster amount of weight in his hand(s) or "tucked under his arm"? Oh, you could try and "tuck" a 60 lb dumbell under your arm as an experiment also. Hopefully the latter won't tear any skin.

Like I previously intimated, when Tchild2 has spoken, all the thinking has been done. No need to say any more. After all, you have lifted weights for decades, and are thus the ultimate expert on what could or could not have happened in the woods of upstate upstate New York about 190 years ago, and you have the biceps to prove it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ERayR]

I thought you might chime in Wade. If you have something substantive to add, please do so knowing your input will be received thoughtfully and respectfully. That is what balanced dialog is about isn't it?

Of course, any person here at any time could take me up on my little experiment. It is so incredibly simple and costs nothing. All you have to do is grab a 60lb dumbell, walk a few steps with it, then think to yourself, "how in the h#ll did Joseph Smith fight off, outrun...or run at all, with this monster amount of weight in his hand(s) or "tucked under his arm"? Oh, you could try and "tuck" a 60 lb dumbell under your arm as an experiment also. Hopefully the latter won't tear any skin.

Do you have any gym workout records for young Joseph that shows he was incapable of doing that?

[krose]

And yet our soldiers can do it and are expected to do it day in and day out in the heat of the middle east.

Do what?

[ERayR]

Do what?

Cary 60 + pound packs and do double time in 100 degree + heat dodging from cover to cover. And even at times while being shot at. You ought to try it sometime, its lots of fun. Builds character as well as muscle and dexterity.

[MAsh]

Mike, I agree with your post, except the above little sentence. If there is one thing Joseph didn't do, that was to set them down and fight. When he first went to the hill 4 years prior, he set them down while he looked at the other artifacts in the box, in which the plates disappeared and Moroni said he wasn't ready.

He had 4 long years to ponder upon 'setting them down' to do something else. I don't think he ever made that mistake again.

Cheers.

I thought about this when I made my post. When he set them down the first time (prior to actually getting the plates) he did so so he could look back into the stone box to see if there was something else valuable inside (that's why the angel told him not to set them down). This directive was obviously not applicable once he aquired the plates-- he set them down all the time (that's why other family members had to move them & could feel them through the cloth). I don't think Moroni would have had a problem with JS setting down the plates so he could defend the plates from being taken by an ambusher. I think we assume this (and I did until I thought about it a little more) because of the intial instruction from Moroni (and I think Moroni bascially told JS to keep the plates in his possession until he could put them in a locked box... laying them at his feet-- still wrapped in the cloth-- while decking his assailant was probably the best way to keep the plates in his possession).

Mike

[charity's child]

I thought you might chime in Wade. If you have something substantive to add, please do so knowing your input will be received thoughtfully and respectfully. That is what balanced dialog is about isn't it?

Of course, any person here at any time could take me up on my little experiment. It is so incredibly simple and costs nothing. All you have to do is grab a 60lb dumbell, walk a few steps with it, then think to yourself, "how in the h#ll did Joseph Smith fight off, outrun...or run at all, with this monster amount of weight in his hand(s) or "tucked under his arm"? Oh, you could try and "tuck" a 60 lb dumbell under your arm as an experiment also. Hopefully the latter won't tear any skin.

Find a 19th century farm boy and we let him show you. Until then, I don't think any gym membership or any modern job can develop the same kind of strength.

[why me]

As a former farm boy myself, I think many people here are overplaying that angle as a reason to attribute exceptional strength to a person. Sure, I used to be able to carry two bales of hay at once, and throw them up on top of a stack on the truck. But there is no way I could compete in strength with the football players who spent their days in the weight room, and I certainly couldn't run faster than the guys down the road who spent their weekends partying hard.

But here is the catch. JS was a 'rough stone rolling' who enjoyed a good match of wrestling. He was no weaklin. And to my knowledge he even loaded the plates on a wagon to take them somewhere to hide. But I cannot be sure about this.

[MAsh]

Sure thing Mike, right after you get me the video clip of the various first vision accounts, a page of the gold plates and more video of resurrected beings visiting to impart some nebulous priesthood powers.

Red Herring alert! Reeenttt, Reeentt!

If what Lucy Mack Smith remembered was fundamentally wrong, then there isn't much to discuss. We are discussing the mechanics of running, eluding, jumping and avoiding assailants if the story was basically remembered correctly as we read.

Fundamentally wrong? Are you serious? Here are the "fundamentals" of Lucy's story: Joseph retrieved the plates, wrapped them in a cloth & was waylaid on the route home by more than one ambusher. He fought off his assailants, escaped, hurt a digit, and came home out of breath with the plates. Those, my friend, are the fundamentals to the story. The rest of the details are ancillaries.

If there is anything more fantastic than angels delivering ancient gold plates Mike? please fill me in.

How about creating ad hoc stories to brush away the most the most probable story-- (cue the Sherlock Holmes quote).

If you can't expect to have a healthy dose of skepticism leveled against what you can claim, but cannot prove, then pick another religion or get thicker skin.

If you can't expect to have a healthy does of skepticism leveled against what you claim, but cannot prove, then pick another unbelief or get a thicker skin.

I admit that, at times, I'm a bit thin skinned. But this conversation doesn't even make the corners of my mouth turn down. In one of your other posts you seem a bit more level-head with your 4 options-- one of which is that Lucy may not have remembered the details completely right (which is almost certainly part true regardless of whether JS had real plates or not).

There are really only two variables. Did Joseph Smith have a way to distribute the load? The text doesn't say so.

The text does say so either way! There isn't enough info in the LATE SECOND HAND text to tell.

Did Joseph Smith really outrun three assailants that had the element of surprise while carrying a 50-60lb load? Without the first, it would be impossible to perform the second.

And since the LATE SECOND HAND report doesn't say either way, what do we make of that?

Sure, if the related story is fundamentally different than remembered or reported by LMS, then we are dealing with variables that materially alter the various possibilities.

See my thought on your "fundamentals" above. As I said before, I'd love to use this same methodology on something you wrote about any past event. Care to share?

Mike

[ERMD]

Brad?

Brad?

[MAsh]

My LDS friends,

Give it up. There is nothing more indisputable than the forensics of a long-time Gold's Gym attendee. If Tchild2 says it can't be done, then udoubtably it can't be done. Time to turn in your church resignation notices and begin instead working out at your local health club. Lifting dumbells for decades will give you whatever insights you will ever need in matters of religious faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If I remember correctly, Tchild2 claimed 20 years of gym-style weight lifting. If that's correct I got him by a decade (yeah, I know, my age is showing). I move 45 lb plates (& larger dumbells) for about 1 hr five days a week. They are heavy-- I don't deny it. At my age I'd have a hard time running very far, but I once (in my mid twenties) ran through an airport to catch a plane with a 50 lb (approx.) pound kid over my shoulder. Now Tchild2 claims that J couldn't have carried the plates this way because they were compact, dense, square, & wrapped in a cloth. This is an assumption. We don't know how thick the cloth was, how many times it was wrapped around the plates-- it could have served as a knap-sack. We just don't know.

And as I've already pointed out numerous times, we don't know that J ran more than a few yards to get away from an assailant he had cold-cocked. Besides, we have no idea if he went Billy-Jack on them and kicked them in the gut or groin while holding the plates in his arms. JS, by all accounts, was a physically powerful young man. With some direction from God (and gee, hasn't God preformed more incredible miracles than this?) and adreniline pumping, the task would have been difficult but certainly not impossible.

[Sevenbak]

If I remember correctly, Tchild2 claimed 20 years of gym-style weight lifting. If that's correct I got him by a decade (yeah, I know, my age is showing). I move 45 lb plates (& larger dumbells) for about 1 hr five days a week. They are heavy-- I don't deny it. At my age I'd have a hard time running very far, but I once (in my mid twenties) ran through an airport to catch a plane with a 50 lb (approx.) pound kid over my shoulder. Now Tchild2 claims that J couldn't have carried the plates this way because they were compact, dense, square, & wrapped in a cloth. This is an assumption. We don't know how thick the cloth was, how many times it was wrapped around the plates-- it could have served as a knap-sack. We just don't know.

And as I've already pointed out numerous times, we don't know that J ran more than a few yards to get away from an assailant he had cold-cocked. Besides, we have no idea if he went Billy-Jack on them and kicked them in the gut or groin while holding the plates in his arms. JS, by all accounts, was a physically powerful young man. With some direction from God (and gee, hasn't God preformed more incredible miracles than this?) and adreniline pumping, the task would have been difficult but certainly not impossible.

Forgive me, I'm a little slow... I keep getting barbell and dumbell mixed up...

[Calm]

Cary 60 + pound packs and do double time in 100 degree + heat dodging from cover to cover. And even at times while being shot at. You ought to try it sometime, its lots of fun. Builds character as well as muscle and dexterity.

Adrenalin probably helps a great deal.

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

A barbell is a bar of about 4 ft in length.

We all are dumbbell at times.

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

We all are dumbbell at times.

Some more than others?

[LeSellers]

Forgive me, I'm a little slow... I keep getting barbell and dumbell mixed up...

A "dumbbell" is a "bell" with a fixed bar, and the weight of the bar itself is included in the total, marked weight of the unit; the weights cannot be removed. A barbell's weights are interchangeable and the bar itself is counted as an additional weight when lifting (typically ~10 pounds). The "bell" alludes to a training device used to practice ringing bells (without actually making any sound).

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Adrenalin probably helps a great deal.

Yes, in both cases (Joseph eluding the ambuscades and soldiers under combat conditions).

Lehi

[Flyonthewall]

Another angle for thought about the event that was recalled...Could it be possible that Lucy Mack Smith did something that Hollywood does all the time? Take several characters from a book and roll them up into one character in a movie? What if Lucy took her recollection of serveral separate events, and combined them into this one recalled event?

Another thought...when it says that Joseph "knocked down" his assailants, does that just mean a push to the ground? or were they knocked unconcious? If they were knocked unconcious, Joseph really didn't have to out race them.

One last thought...

Why is it divine assistance is so readily cast off as being improbable? I mean most Christians have no problem with Elija running as fast or faster than a chariot, so it isn't that it is out of realm of possibilities for God to provide super-human assistance to His chosen prophet.

In all the instances of divine intervention that has been recorded, I think this little episode, even if it did go down as was recalled, is not even a blip on the "unbelievable" scale.

[Sevenbak]

A "dumbbell" is a "bell" with a fixed bar, and the weight of the bar itself is included in the total, marked weight of the unit; the weights cannot be removed. A barbell's weights are interchangeable and the bar itself is counted as an additional weight when lifting (typically ~10 pounds). The "bell" alludes to a training device used to practice ringing bells (without actually making any sound).

Lehi

I was being facetious. I guess my humor is a little too dry.

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

Not TOO dry.

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

Not TOO dry.

Thanks. I guess there are weightier matters we can heft.

[LeSellers]

I was being facetious. I guess my humor is a little too dry.

I noticed the emoticon.

However, it is my experience that the people who need information the most are often the least likely to ask, and whenever anyone asks, even in jest, I answer for those who did not ask but should have.

'Sides, there are subtle distinctions in words we use frequently that we often forget. So brushing up on our vocabulary is never a wasted effort.

Lehi

[charity's child]

Another thought...when it says that Joseph "knocked down" his assailants, does that just mean a push to the ground? or were they knocked unconcious? If they were knocked unconcious, Joseph really didn't have to out race them.

Picture this - Joseph, carrying the plates wrapped in his linen smock top - which readily creates a sort of sack (think of a moderate weight denim, extra long shirt) If he has the plates in his hands and someone attacks from behind, natural behavior is to swing around. The plates would most likely catch the guy full on the chest. Now, I don't know about you, but I think if someone hit me straight in the chest with 40-60 lbs, I'd drop like a rock and be down for a while struggling to breathe. Which gives Joseph time to run off into the darkness, probably not certain if the attacker is completely out of the picture or just stunned.