The weight of the golden plates

[wenglund]

Perhaps Joseph Smith never intended his plates story to go beyond the "story" stage. That is why there were so many vague conditions in place by the guardian of the plates. It was all prepping as to why others could not see the plates, despite them being buried close by. Kind of like when using his seer stone to locate treasures, they went "slippery". Do treasures really go slippery and disappear when you get to close to them? Ultimately, a prop seemed possible, if not more useful to his claims.

Joseph claimed the plates were buried at the hill Cumorah. Should he bring out his fabricated set from a location different from where he claimed them? If you are going through the motions of retreiving plates that exist no more than in story form, where do you go to create the illusion of retrieving plates? As I said earlier, the fabricated plates may not have been at the hill, but Joseph absolutely had to make the pilmagrage to the hill Cumorah, no matter where he had stashed the plates. Wasn't it convenient that Emma was praying and did not see Joseph actually retrieve the plates, and that only later would those plates, unseen by any others, be retrieved by Joseph alone?

Prepping. Is having a key somehow difficult to obtain?

Sure, once the fabricated plates were extant, there had to be a very secure location for them. Discovery of them would be ruinous. Very clever, as Joseph needed to safeguard a fake set as vigilantly as he would need to safeguard an authentic set. Would he not?

Perhaps a small investment for a larger one? If anything, Joseph took pains to safeguard whatever he wanted to be kept safe.

Like I stated Wade, it is possible that others were interested in the plates for their perceived economic value, and Joseph felt threatened by that excitement as I have shown on my very last post. His story may have been close or merely a scaled back version he used as a template. Surely Joseph wouldn't have wanted his prop stolen and the truth be known, would he?

Who were these three unknown individuals? They appeared out of nowhere and never showed their face again in such a tight knit community? The story was of gold plates. Such a story would and did garner interest. I put the possibility of Joseph actually being attacked infinitely more likely than of him actually having ancient gold plates, so whether he was attacked or not is mostly immaterial. I just happen to think he used something menacing (whether real or imagined) to bolster his claims and to create the impression that "evil men" were transpiring to steal the plates.

Creating a false buzz of having precious and valuable gold plates would attract attention, and might bring potential assailants. Once the story was out, Joseph had to protect the story and/or the props he created. Others didn't know his story was false, so they may have pursued him for those claimed plates. Like I said, whether he was attacked or not is not that material, and doesn't alter the fact that his "story" was so convincing to others of him having real gold plates of value.

I just happen to think that it was probably a "story" like the plates, but ultimately it doesn't matter all that much. Such a far-fetched story does fit better with someone who hadn't thought about the physical realities of fighting off (remember, Joseph was instructed to never lay the plates down on his return trip...as he claimed anyway), assailants without putting the plates down and outrunning not one, but three persons. It also fits better if Joseph was actually carrying a fabricated set with him on that walk through the woods, but didn't actually fight off assailants, because if he had, he would have realized how nearly impossible it is to fight off and outrun grown men with a huge weight held under the arm or in the hands.

Edited, I went to the gym today and grabbed a slew of dumbells from the 40-60 range. At 40 lbs, I could manage a few movements and realized I could probably run if the weight were pressed against my body snuggly. 45 lbs and up was more difficult. I grabbed the 60 lb dumbell and realized every word I have written makes perfect sense. I don't care if you come from the planet Krypton, 60 lbs held out in front of the body in one hand, makes all rapid running movements virtually impossible. Strength has nothing to do with it. That much weight creates an imbalance of body symmetry and center of balance that makes running an impossibility.

For whatever reason, you appear not to have grasped the two glaringly obvious points of my last post. So, let my spell them out for you.

1. For three years prior to the event in question, it had been made painfully obvious to others that the plates were not to be shown to anyone but Joseph, and that evil men would nevertheless attempt to obtain them. There was no need to "prep" others by fabricating the story in question because others had already been sufficiently prepped. In short, given the broader historical context, your hypothesis regarding the motive for the account in question, ironically, doesn't make sense.

2. When also looking at the broader historical context and considering together all the events leading up to the publishing of the Book of Mormon, they clearly go way way way beyond what one might reasonably expect from an alleged fraud. If the 17-year-old Joseph had, for whatever reasons, supposedly contrived a scheme to get people to believe he had eventually translated an ancient record of scriptures, it would have been sufficient to have done something far less elaborate and similar to the Kinderhook Plate hoax, and this after he had written the book. There was no need for him to concoct a story about angelic visitations. There was no need for him to secretly visit the nearby hill each of four years, or to supposedly invent lengthy stories about the people covered in the book. It makes no sense for him to claim the plates were gold (if the last thing he wanted was for his alleged "prop" to be taken and seen by others, then it would make no sense for him to make the plates so valuable that poor and somewhat unprincipled people would be highly motivate to get them, causing him to go through great effort and expense to prevent people from getting them). Instead, they could have more easily and equally effectively been made of brass, and smaller in size to make transportation and concealment much easier. It makes no sense for him, after a hard-days work, to drag his new bride out all night so he could secretly move the alleged "prop" from the hill to some woods near his home. It seems entirely unnecessary for him to have to work several days just to pay for a lock-box to put the plates into. If the plates weren't real. It is beyond reason to think that Joseph would worry his family terribly, and after working strenuously repairing a well, would feel the need to rush home from Macedon, grab some refreshments, and run or walk the three miles to where the plates were hidden, run or walk the three miles home, purposely dislocate his thumb, feign exhaustion and fright upon his return, and supposedly fabricate a story about being pursued by conspiring men (which coicedentaly had been seen conspiring), and allow his father and Knight and Stowell to go after the pursuers....and on and on I could go, but hopefully you now get the point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Scottie]

For whatever reason, you appear not to have grasped the two glaringly obvious points of my last post. So, let my spell them out for you.

Wow... Shocking... someone missed one of Wade's points.

[Tchild2]

For whatever reason, you appear not to have grasped the two glaringly obvious points of my last post. So, let my spell them out for you.

1. For three years prior to the event in question, it had been made painfully obvious to others that the plates were not to be shown to anyone but Joseph, and that evil men would nevertheless attempt to obtain them. There was no need to "prep" others by fabricating the story in question because others had already been sufficiently prepped. In short, given the broader historical context, your hypothesis regarding the motive for the account in question, ironically, doesn't make sense.

Wade, the story itself is prepping. Why can't Joseph Smith show the plates to anyone? Because the angel forbids it. What Angel you ask? The angel that only Joseph Smith is privvy to speak to. Should the prepping stop at some point Wade? Shouldn't the "prepping" increase now that Joseph Smith has moved beyond the "story" stage and has introduced his fabricated plates? I would think that the pressure by others to see the plates would increase exponentially, once it was claimed that Joseph Smith was in possession of them. Don't you think?

2. When also looking at the broader historical context and considering together all the events leading up to the publishing of the Book of Mormon, they clearly go way way way beyond what one might reasonably expect from an alleged fraud. If the 17-year-old Joseph had, for whatever reasons, supposedly contrived a scheme to get people to believe he had eventually translated an ancient record of scriptures, it would have been sufficient to have done something far less elaborate and similar to the Kinderhook Plate hoax, and this after he had written the book. There was no need for him to concoct a story about angelic visitations.

Basically, the work included fabricating a crude set of plates that could pass the "heft" test and "touch through the cloth test", but not much more. Secondly the fraud included a religious work of literature (the BoM) that Joseph Smith was clearly capable of, and finally, the convincing of the three and eight witnesses. Of the "evidences" for the BoM, as others have noted, the 11 witnesses constitute the greatest strength of the validity of the plates, but there are troubling aspects to those witnesses; family and friends (potential co-conspirators), prepared statments, lacking personal written affadavits and finally, ambiguity as to the physicality or "spiritual" nature of the plates by the witnesses.

There was no need for him to secretly visit the nearby hill each of four years, or to supposedly invent lengthy stories about the people covered in the book.

What evidence do we have of Joseph Smith visiting the hill every year, beyond his claims? Did anyone accompany him, excepting that last visit with Emma, who stayed put in the wagon praying?

It makes no sense for him to claim the plates were gold (if the last thing he wanted was for his alleged "prop" to be taken and seen by others, then it would make no sense for him to make the plates so valuable that poor and somewhat unprincipled people would be highly motivate to get them, causing him to go through great effort and expense to prevent people from getting them).

How was Joseph employed in the past? By treasure seeking. Gold is what interested people.

Instead, they could have more easily and equally effectively been made of brass, and smaller in size to make transportation and concealment much easier. It makes no sense for him, after a hard-days work, to drag his new bride out all night so he could secretly move the alleged "prop" from the hill to some woods near his home. It seems entirely unnecessary for him to have to work several days just to pay for a lock-box to put the plates into. If the plates weren't real. It is beyond reason to think that Joseph would worry his family terribly, and after working strenuously repairing a well, would feel the need to rush home from Macedon, grab some refreshments, and run or walk the three miles to where the plates were hidden, run or walk the three miles home, purposely dislocate his thumb, feign exhaustion and fright upon his return, and supposedly fabricate a story about being pursued by conspiring men (which coicedentaly had been seen conspiring), and allow his father and Knight and Stowell to go after the pursuers....and on and on I could go, but hopefully you now get the point.

I get the point. But I am offering a counterpoint advocating a naturalistic explanation.

Since Joseph Smith could translate without looking at the plates, why the need for the plates in the first place (assuming they were delivered by an angel)?

Since the the Angel Moroni had zapped Joseph Smith physically, when he attempted to retreive the plates early (per his story), why couldn't the angel have done the same for any ne'er do well who attempted to take them?

Why does God allow hefting and feeling through a cloth, but forbids actually looking at the plates?

[Tchild2]

I have to disagree with this portion of your theory.

I find it more than likely that JS could have simply fabricated some plates and claimed that the Angel appeared in the night and requested that he retrieve them immediately. He snuck out of the house undetected, retrieved the plates and returned home without incident.

Sure, that works well also. There are myriad possibilities as to the how, when and wheres

All of the caution of not showing anyone the plates could have been because the Angel commanded him to do so. No need for an elaborate chase through the woods to hammer this point home. "Because an Angel told me to" seems to be all the convincing people need.

Exactly. In fact, the angel did command J.S. not to show the plates, despite the fact that the Angel could physically impede people from taking the plates, and the fact that Joseph could apparently translate said plates with them out of sight and by using the seer stone and a darkened hat.

[MAsh]

Since Joseph Smith could translate without looking at the plates, why the need for the plates in the first place (assuming they were delivered by an angel)?

1) Maybe to convince J that this was real-- not a figment of his imagination.

2) To convince his family and several important others that this was real and not figments of their imagination.

3) To stick in the craw of critics.

[wenglund]

Wow... Shocking... someone missed one of Wade's points.

Actually, if you read the sentence a little more carefully, you will see that it was two points that were missed, not one, and the points that were missed were the two main points. Perhaps the reason they were missed was due to sloppy reading like what we found with you just now. No shock there.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[species373]

Wow...my first post. I'm so excited!

First off...I didn't know that I had an opinion on JS running through the woods until I read all twelve pages of posts.

Second... I never knew that this was a make-it or break it testimony item.

But to my point, as a 6ft'er who has spent time in the military and the gym and running, I happen to agree with Tchild2. It would be incredibly difficult for anybody to run in the woods for very long carrying 40-60lbs that's not firmly attached to your core. As for the super farmer supposition, I'd imagine that an aerobic three mile sprint would wind a beefy farmkid, especially after the first adrenaline rush wore off. I'll buy the one punch knockout artist theory - why not. It happens.

But since we are talking about an event with a supernatural/religious purpose, I'm going to have to say that it is within God's ability to lend a helping hand and pace JS for the last leg of the run.

As for the quality of the discussion points staying on topic whether JS could physically have run with the plates by himself, Tchild2's side wins. The counter-arguments tend rely on miracles or super-farmer.

[Tchild2]

1) Maybe to convince J that this was real-- not a figment of his imagination.

2) To convince his family and several important others that this was real and not figments of their imagination.

3) To stick in the craw of critics.

I like the way you think MAsh.

1) Ok, so the plates were to cement to Joseph Smith their validity. Couldn't have visiting a real tangible resurrected angel over the years convinced Joseph that everything was more than a mere figment of the imagination?

2) But to everyone else, the plates were mostly a figment of the imagination come to life only through the claims and story of J.S. I guess I find it incredibly odd that God allows some sort of limited touching through cloth by others, but not close examination. Then, Joseph rarely even utilizes the "realness" of the plates, and delves into the mysterious act of looking into a stone to translate. That act alone would have blurred what was real and what was imagination.

3) Well, it makes for a lively debate doesn't it? The reality of the plates, to me at least, isn't in question, but the hows, whys, when and wheres are definitely a head scratcher in many cases.

[wenglund]

Wade, the story itself is prepping. Why can't Joseph Smith show the plates to anyone? Because the angel forbids it. What Angel you ask? The angel that only Joseph Smith is privvy to speak to. Should the prepping stop at some point Wade? Shouldn't the "prepping" increase now that Joseph Smith has moved beyond the "story" stage and has introduced his fabricated plates? I would think that the pressure by others to see the plates would increase exponentially, once it was claimed that Joseph Smith was in possession of them. Don't you think?

I can see how, with someone like yourself, that it would take more than three years of clear indication to finally grasp the relatively simple notion that the plates were, for a time, for Joseph's eyes only, and so some additional "prep"-ing might be in order.

However, evidently such was not necessary in the case of Joseph's family members and friends. They clearly got the point after the first year, if not before then, as evinced by the conspicuous absense of their thinking they would see the plates, and also their concern for Joseph and the safety of the plates and their efforts to assist in keeping the plates out of view prior to the incident in question. Again, the so-called "prep"-ing was already complete by the time the incident occurred, and as such your hypothesis doesn't make sense. Sorry.

Basically, the work included fabricating a crude set of plates that could pass the "heft" test and "touch through the cloth test", but not much more.

Not if the credible word of the 11 eye witnesses is to be believed. The so-called "fabrication" would need to have the "appearance of gold" and "engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship".

Secondly the fraud included a religious work of literature (the BoM) that Joseph Smith was clearly capable of, and finally, the convincing of the three and eight witnesses. Of the "evidences" for the BoM, as others have noted, the 11 witnesses constitute the greatest strength of the validity of the plates, but there are troubling aspects to those witnesses; family and friends (potential co-conspirators), prepared statments, lacking personal written affadavits and finally, ambiguity as to the physicality or "spiritual" nature of the plates by the witnesses.

You seem to be straining not to get the point. Were Joseph wishing to commit a fraud, there is no need for this level of complexity, and very good reason to avoid it since the more complex you make things, and the more people you involve, the greater the risk for exposure. The alleged fraud could be accomplished without risking having witnesses. It really doesn't make sense. Sorry.

What evidence do we have of Joseph Smith visiting the hill every year, beyond his claims? Did anyone accompany him, excepting that last visit with Emma, who stayed put in the wagon praying?

There is the circumstantial evidence of his absense from the farm during those times. But, again, this misses the point. Whether he went to the hill, or allegedly hung out in the woods pretending to go to the hill each year, he was gone for a time, and came back and with the exception of one year, gave an account of his experience on the hill--all of which would be entirely unnecessary to carry out the theorized fraud. So, why all the unnecessary and elaborate trappings that would put an actual fraud at serious risk of exposure? It doesn't make sense.

How was Joseph employed in the past? By treasure seeking. Gold is what interested people.

It very much interests people, particularly the poor and unprincipled. But, it interests them in the gold, and not in what was written on the gold. However, besides this last point, what you seem not to get is that if Joseph were allegedly committing a fraud, it wouldn't make sense for him to greatly excite people's interest in that which he wished to keep hid from them, and didn't wish to encourage being stolen. It wouldn't make sense for him to claim the plates were gold--particularly since he wouldn't have had to make such a claim to make the alleged fraud work.

I get the point. But I am offering a counterpoint advocating a naturalistic explanation.

The challenge you face is constructing your naturalistic explanation so that it makes sense given the historical data, and isn't more seemingly miraculous as the supernatural explanation. Thus far, in my opinion, you have failed on both accounts.

Since Joseph Smith could translate without looking at the plates, why the need for the plates in the first place (assuming they were delivered by an angel)?

Exactly. If he were committing a fraud, he would have absolutely no need for the plates, but could have claimed to have translated the ancient history by the power of God. The fact that he had the plates, particularly given all the challenges the plates possed while in his possession, mitigates against it being a fraud.

But, in answer to your question, we don't know enough about the translation process to say one way or the other. Who knows if he could always translate without the plates nearby or were they somewhere else? And, what difference does it make? Whether he could or could translate without the plates is immaterial to his having the plates.

Since the the Angel Moroni had zapped Joseph Smith physically, when he attempted to retreive the plates early (per his story), why couldn't the angel have done the same for any ne'er do well who attempted to take them?

I don't know that he couldn't. But, clearly, that is not the approach that was eventually chosen.

However, the Angel Moroni was also said to have made the plates dissapear. Were Joseph to have allegedly committed a fraud, it would have been much simpler and safer for him to have no plates at all, but pretend they existed, and when men came seemingly close to getting them, Joseph could claim that the angel made them dissappear, thus saving all the trouble and expense of secreting and securing the real plates. So, the fact that Joseph did otherwise, mitigates against it being a fraud.

Why does God allow hefting and feeling through a cloth, but forbids actually looking at the plates?

He hasn't said why--not that it would be material to whether the plates existed regardless. However, I suppose it may be for the same reason that he lets non-members tour his temples before they are dedicated, but not thereafter.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Wow...my first post. I'm so excited!

First off...I didn't know that I had an opinion on JS running through the woods until I read all twelve pages of posts.

Second... I never knew that this was a make-it or break it testimony item.

But to my point, as a 6ft'er who has spent time in the military and the gym and running, I happen to agree with Tchild2. It would be incredibly difficult for anybody to run in the woods for very long carrying 40-60lbs that's not firmly attached to your core. As for the super farmer supposition, I'd imagine that an aerobic three mile sprint would wind a beefy farmkid, especially after the first adrenaline rush wore off. I'll buy the one punch knockout artist theory - why not. It happens.

But since we are talking about an event with a supernatural/religious purpose, I'm going to have to say that it is within God's ability to lend a helping hand and pace JS for the last leg of the run.

As for the quality of the discussion points staying on topic whether JS could physically have run with the plates by himself, Tchild2's side wins. The counter-arguments tend rely on miracles or super-farmer.

Welcome to the board, and I am grateful for your post. However, were you aware that the plates were wrapped in a frock, which could be used to secure the plates "firmly to your core" or atop the shoulders?

Were Joseph to have run part of the time and walked part of the time, and were portions of the woods downhill, would it make the account believable to you even absent supernatural intervention?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[species373]

Welcome to the board, and I am grateful for your post. However, were you aware that the plates were wrapped in a frock, which could be used to secure the plates "firmly to your core" or atop the shoulders?

Were Joseph to have run part of the time and walked part of the time, and were portions of the woods downhill, would it make the account believable to you even absent supernatural intervention?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yeah, I was aware of the frock. I did read all 235 posts. I just can't imagine a position using it that would be conducive to running. I'm of the opinion that, taking Lucy's story at face value, that it would be a tremendous effort and that my personal experiences lend me to believe Tchild2's argument to be more realistic. It would have been a seriously tough slog through the woods, even going downhill with the wind on his back. Impossible...no.

That being said, I'd vouch for a little spin on Lucy's side. No problem. It could have been the easier situation that you propose.

[Calm]

I just can't imagine a position using it that would be conducive to running. \

Have you seen a baby sling? Using the two sleeves, one could come up with something quite like this, it leaves at least one arm free with the second being able to aid balance or hit someone while the first one can keep it tight against the chest.

[Scottie]

Have you seen a baby sling? Using the two sleeves, one could come up with something quite like this, it leaves at least one arm free with the second being able to aid balance or hit someone while the first one can keep it tight against the chest.

Wow, I'd like to see that 60 pound baby!!

[Calm]

Wow, I'd like to see that 60 pound baby!!

It can certainly feel like it after a long night of walking the floors.

[Tchild2]

I can see how, with someone like yourself, that it would take more than three years of clear indication to finally grasp the relatively simple notion that the plates were, for a time, for Joseph's eyes only, and so some additional "prep"-ing might be in order.

Wade, you have excellent and cogent points that I enjoy debating, condescension is not necessary please. I you don't agree with me, I understand. Putting out theories is an imprecise science so a healthy back and forth is more prefereable.

I know that the prospect of supernaturalism, with resurrected angels, golden plates, folklore superstition and magical seeing devices seems so commonplace to some, but to others, we seek naturalistic explanations. All we have are what Joseph claimed, and nothing else. Just because Joseph claimed an angel wanted this, that or the other, doesn't really mean anything other than words from Joseph Smith's lips? Who else in the history of the world Wade, do you know that has personally met the Angel Moroni?

However, evidently such was not necessary in the case of Joseph's family members and friends. They clearly got the point after the first year, if not before then, as evinced by the conspicuous absense of their thinking they would see the plates, and also their concern for Joseph and the safety of the plates and their efforts to assist in keeping the plates out of view prior to the incident in question. Again, the so-called "prep"-ing was already complete by the time the incident occurred, and as such your hypothesis doesn't make sense. Sorry.

So, the "prepping" once completed, ought to have stopped and any future prepping should be deemed as wholly unneccesary?

Not if the credible word of the 11 eye witnesses is to be believed. The so-called "fabrication" would need to have the "appearance of gold" and "engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship".

Witnesses don't mean much to me Wade in the context that those witnesses were close to J.S., part of the religious supernaturalism of the times and were prepped and conditioned to give their "witness" on terms and conditions of Joseph Smith. I don't believe any God would operate under such labored and controlled circumstances. If God had wanted "witnesses" he could have had raised up a righteous museum curator and had the plates institutionally protected and Joseph could have translated from afar (or close when Joseph visited the museum). There would be plates to witness today and the actual golden plates as the evidence. That is just one of a thousand different scenarios that would protect the plates, and provide unbiased "witnesses". But apparently God isn't is logical as I am.

You seem to be straining not to get the point. Were Joseph wishing to commit a fraud, there is no need for this level of complexity, and very good reason to avoid it since the more complex you make things, and the more people you involve, the greater the risk for exposure. The alleged fraud could be accomplished without risking having witnesses. It really doesn't make sense. Sorry.

What level of complexity Wade? Much of what is alleged came in second hand reports from what Joseph claimed, and some came later after the alleged events. Hardly any history of what we have comes from first hand journal or writings from the man himself; Joseph Smith. Lets look at the level of complexity shall we? We have a lot of claims, stories and boasts, but not much of anything to back any of it up. J.S. claims to see an angel (is that complex?). Joseph Smith claims that the angel has conditions on why he can't retrieve these gold plates (is that complex?). Joseph Smith won't let anybody see the plates, but they can heft and feel through cloth something heavy (is that complex) and at some point, with materials available to J.S. (like materials in his father's house serving as a cooper shop) Joseph makes a crude prop (is that complex). Where is the deep complexity? Most of what is claimed, is merely a claim from the mouth of Joseph Smith (is that complex?). To be fair to the argument, we do have two complexities; the finished product called the Book of Mormon, including the duration of the process of "translating", from start to finish. The second, are the 3 and 8 witnesses. More complex for sure, but controlled by Joseph Smith, and not enough to warrant an appeal to supernaturalism when a naturalistic explanation will do...IMO.

There is the circumstantial evidence of his absense from the farm during those times. But, again, this misses the point. Whether he went to the hill, or allegedly hung out in the woods pretending to go to the hill each year, he was gone for a time, and came back and with the exception of one year, gave an account of his experience on the hill--all of which would be entirely unnecessary to carry out the theorized fraud. So, why all the unnecessary and elaborate trappings that would put an actual fraud at serious risk of exposure? It doesn't make sense.

Ok, Joseph claimed to have visited the "hill" once per year. Is there proof that he ever did? Why do we assume that he visited the hill based on his claims only? Secondly, it seems that J.S and Emma were out of the region for a year and possibly missed the 1826 visit. Why did Joseph potentially miss a most crucial yearly visit with Moroni?

It very much interests people, particularly the poor and unprincipled. But, it interests them in the gold, and not in what was written on the gold. However, besides this last point, what you seem not to get is that if Joseph were allegedly committing a fraud, it wouldn't make sense for him to greatly excite people's interest in that which he wished to keep hid from them, and didn't wish to encourage being stolen. It wouldn't make sense for him to claim the plates were gold--particularly since he wouldn't have had to make such a claim to make the alleged fraud work.

Wade, I don't know all the motives involved. But, like Dan Vogel, I don't view Joseph Smith as some spurious ne'er do well. I personally think he was very complex and potentially a man with conflicted motives, some altruistic and idealistic, and some self-serving (like most of us). Secondly, it helps to look at the occupation (hobby) of Joseph's prior work; seer looking or Scryer. In relation to the excitement of the plates, there were fellow treasure seekers and a certain "retained" unnamed necromancer seeking to find what Joseph had claimed to have discovered on the cusp of Joseph seeking to retrieve the plates. Can't figure how to link on this new system so -- Mormon Wiki, "retrieving the plates".

Like I stated earlier, my theory is in its infancy, so the motives attributed to Joseph by me may be incomplete, and perpetually so. My theory is that initially Joseph used the plates to enhance his seer abilities and for indirect financial gain, and later, as a much more complex "pious fraud" to introduce evolving Christian theological concepts that Joseph believed to be a more accurate portrayal of God, the trinity, and Christianity, of which, he still hoped for some indirect personal gain; fame, money, happiness, success...whatever.

The challenge you face is constructing your naturalistic explanation so that it makes sense given the historical data, and isn't more seemingly miraculous as the supernatural explanation. Thus far, in my opinion, you have failed on both accounts.

Ok, how does a real angel Moroni make more sense than an invented angel Moroni given the stories told by Joseph Smith? Essentially, your argument is that Joseph made too great of pains and preparations for his story to be a fabrication and the only explanation why Joseph visited certain spots and saved to buy certain wood chests, and bought certain chest keys is because he did so only due to the story being factual, and doing otherwise, if the story were fabricated, was just too much cost and effort?

Exactly. If he were committing a fraud, he would have absolutely no need for the plates, but could have claimed to have translated the ancient history by the power of God. The fact that he had the plates, particularly given all the challenges the plates possed while in his possession, mitigates against it being a fraud.

Now we are to the real genius of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith lived in a region where claims of God, of visitations, of supernatural events, of folklore superstitions, of treasures and all the rest were accepted and commonplace. The only way to differentiate yourself is to bridge the supernatural with the mundane (the physical). Joseph accomplished this so brilliantly IMO. His plates prop was the extra ingredient that took his claim above and beyond the others. He provided his imagination of the past, the unknown and the supernatural with a concrete earthly and physical example. That connection is why there is a Mormonism today.

But, in answer to your question, we don't know enough about the translation process to say one way or the other. Who knows if he could always translate without the plates nearby or were they somewhere else? And, what difference does it make? Whether he could or could translate without the plates is immaterial to his having the plates.

What we have are the second hand reports. Many of those state that the translation process was via the seer stone at the bottom of a hat process, which was a process that Joseph utilized in his scryer activities. If we assume supernatural origins, then we will never know. Naturalistically? Well then, the translation process was from the fertile and active mind of Joseph Smith.

I don't know that he couldn't. But, clearly, that is not the approach that was eventually chosen.

However, the Angel Moroni was also said to have made the plates dissapear. Were Joseph to have allegedly committed a fraud, it would have been much simpler and safer for him to have no plates at all, but pretend they existed, and when men came seemingly close to getting them, Joseph could claim that the angel made them dissappear, thus saving all the trouble and expense of secreting and securing the real plates. So, the fact that Joseph did otherwise, mitigates against it being a fraud.

Yes, fabricated plates presented much more risk, and potentially much more reward and acceptance. I cannot say why Joseph chose to move the claim from "story" to prop. My best guess is that it enhanced his story and he felt confident enough to pull it off successfully.

Yours are all good points Wade and for a believer or skeptic, they are all worth considering.

[species373]

Have you seen a baby sling? Using the two sleeves, one could come up with something quite like this, it leaves at least one arm free with the second being able to aid balance or hit someone while the first one can keep it tight against the chest.

yeah, I've seen a sling. I got three kids and when they were young, I carried them all over Europe in tummy carriers, side slings, and in a stupid backpack that we paid way too much for and used three times. None of which would have made carrying 60lbs "easy".

But don't jump on me, I didn't say it didn't happen. I just said that running and jumping and fist fighting while carrying a sixty pound block for three miles over rough terrain isn't easy.

[Cold Steel]

Joseph Smith not only was exceptionally strong, he most likely could have carried them longer distances by throwing them over his shoulder. Not only did he have to cart them around, but Moroni had to cart them around, most likely from Mesoamerica.

There are all sorts of variables. As others have noted, thickness of pages, types of alloy, size of the engravings, number of pages and so forth.

At the time Joseph claimed to have had the plates, there were no known examples of people writing on metal plates. Rather than critics asking us to account for a record we've never examined, we should be asking them to account for Smith's prescience in coming up with such a way of recording scripture.

[Tchild2]

yeah, I've seen a sling. I got three kids and when they were young, I carried them all over Europe in tummy carriers, side slings, and in a stupid backpack that we paid way too much for and used three times. None of which would have made carrying 60lbs "easy".

But don't jump on me, I didn't say it didn't happen. I just said that running and jumping and fist fighting while carrying a sixty pound block for three miles over rough terrain isn't easy.

Sixty pounds slung over the shoulder and distributed over the body is heavy, but it still allows the pendulum motion for running. Probably not at sprinter speed, but jogging away from an assailant with three broken teeth perhaps. Any motion of the plates rocking to and from the body would have upset the ability to run. The weight would not only have to be strung across the shoulders, but fit snugly to the body. Why would someone fit the plates snugly to the body not expecting assailants?

Since the recollection by Lucy Mack Smith mentions very mundane details about carving away bark, logs, and hollow cavities, you have to wonder how she might remember such intricate details, then go and recollect carelessly or forgetfully about the rest of the details crucial to the story. The other option is that she remembered well what she was told, but it was the orator that embellished his version of the story?

It isn't the walking and lugging of 40-60 lbs in rugged wooded terrain that is all that difficult, but the specific actions of 1) fighting off a an assailant that had the element of surprise, and with a gun(what does the military teach about the element of surprise?), and 2) outrunning multiple assailants, per the story, with the plates "tucked under the arm". A loose fitting sling would have served to carry the weight while walking, but not necessarily running. Lastly, per the earlier stories, the angel Moroni stipulated that Joseph Smith take the plates from the hill to his home without laying the plates down. So, that means, no dropping plates to fight off assailants, or no dropping plates to rest at any point.

Something has to give, either the strength of Joseph Smith, or the story itself.

[wenglund]

Yours are all good points Wade and for a believer or skeptic, they are all worth considering.

That was very nice for you to say, and I very much appreciate you hearing me out on the matter, just as I hope you know I have given your ideas considerable thought, and this even though we may not have moved any close to seeing eye-to-eye. To each their own. Have a delightful 24th.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tchild2]

That was very nice for you to say, and I very much appreciate you hearing me out on the matter, just as I hope you know I have given your ideas considerable thought, and this even though we may not have moved any close to seeing eye-to-eye. To each their own. Have a delightful 24th.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You too Wade. 5,000 years in the future, we will be laughing about this, while we drink synthetic beer that contains an approved alcohol substitute and you are doing your twice-century visits from the Celestial Kingdom, to come chat with me in the telestial.

[wenglund]

You too Wade. 5,000 years in the future, we will be laughing about this, while we drink synthetic beer that contains an approved alcohol substitute and you are doing your twice-century visits from the Celestial Kingdom, to come chat with me in the telestial.

It might take me 5000 years to acquire a taste for synthetic beer. I had a sip of near beer once, and it made me gag. Anyway, Mudcat and I are already planning to meet for some fishing and a BBQ at his cottage on a lake somewhere in the heavens, and I am sure he would be happy to have you came along. You'll have to bring your own beef, and dress will be casual. No toga's allowed. With my presumed divine powers, perhaps I could then put on a demonstration where I wrap the world in a frock, put it on my shoulder, and run at lightening speed throughout the galaxy, and thus maybe make a believer out of you yet.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Calm]

yeah, I've seen a sling. I got three kids and when they were young, I carried them all over Europe in tummy carriers, side slings, and in a stupid backpack that we paid way too much for and used three times. None of which would have made carrying 60lbs "easy".

But don't jump on me, I didn't say it didn't happen. I just said that running and jumping and fist fighting while carrying a sixty pound block for three miles over rough terrain isn't easy.

The sling doesn't make carrying a baby all that easy either, just easier than it would be without it.

I don't believe that anyone here has claimed that carrying the plates, etc. for JS was easy...in fact, Lucy's account seems to make it obvious that JS and her didn't think of it as easy either.

[MAsh]

I like the way you think MAsh.

1) Ok, so the plates were to cement to Joseph Smith their validity. Couldn't have visiting a real tangible resurrected angel over the years convinced Joseph that everything was more than a mere figment of the imagination?

Real plates would work much better. Even covered they could be hefted & touched by others. This would undoubtedly make J feel more comfortable knowing that he wasn't just hallucinating. More than one crackpot thinks he has visitations from aliens.

2) But to everyone else, the plates were mostly a figment of the imagination come to life only through the claims and story of J.S.

Not so, family & friends touched & hefted the plates (& even the interpreters). These were certainly not figments of J's imagination.

I guess I find it incredibly odd that God allows some sort of limited touching through cloth by others, but not close examination.

There obviously would have had monetary value. J was tempted by this intially. Maybe God knew that seeing the plates might offer too much temptation to some of these financially strapped people.

Then, Joseph rarely even utilizes the "realness" of the plates, and delves into the mysterious act of looking into a stone to translate. That act alone would have blurred what was real and what was imagination.

Not in the least. The fact that real plates existed required one of two options: a) there were exactly what J said they were, J was a fraud & he created the plates. The plates were not imaginary. They provided tangible evidence for J's claims. Each person had to (and still has to) engage that evidence.

3) Well, it makes for a lively debate doesn't it? The reality of the plates, to me at least, isn't in question, but the hows, whys, when and wheres are definitely a head scratcher in many cases.

Exactly. You either believe J's story or you MUST create an alternative explanation for the very real tangible plates (and quite frankly, I don't have the time/engergy to get into the discussion you & Wade are at regarding this issue). That's why whhen I said it sticks in the craw of the critics-- I was actually quite serious. A critic MUST confront the evidence of real plates. If they were what he & the witnesses said they were then J was a prophet. The evidence must be addressed. This forces critics to come up with an alternative explanation for the tangible plates-- and explanation that involves the deciet of J & several others (or at least that the Witnesses were somehow duped). I find the counter-explanations very weak but understand the need to create one for those who have already determined that there was no angel.

[MAsh]

Since the recollection by Lucy Mack Smith mentions very mundane details about carving away bark, logs, and hollow cavities, you have to wonder how she might remember such intricate details, then go and recollect carelessly or forgetfully about the rest of the details crucial to the story. The other option is that she remembered well what she was told, but it was the orator that embellished his version of the story?

I should be surprised by your comment above, but I'm not. Have you ever written in journal? Have you ever written a letter to a friend or relative about an event? If not, let me tell what my experience is like (having read some of the things I've written). I find that it is highly common to pick a few things to give great details about but to leave out other details.

I went out to my car. It was a candy-apple read Porche-- turbo charged, of course. I've had it up to 130mph before, but that was when I lived in Germany and drove it on the Autobahn. I slipped into my black leather seats and turned on the radio. "Another One Bite's the Dust" but Queen has just started so I cranked it up and opened the sunroof to let in the cool night's air. Dropping the clutch I sped home just in time for dinner.

Now wait a minute. What route did I take home? Home many lights if any did I encounter? Did I have to slow down for cops? Come on, this is quite frankly a very silly argument. I'm sure you're brighter than this.

It isn't the walking and lugging of 40-60 lbs in rugged wooded terrain that is all that difficult, but the specific actions of 1) fighting off a an assailant that had the element of surprise,

According to Lucy he was surpised once & attacked 3 times. For all you know he ran into them while going home-- maybe they were as surprised as he was. J, by all accounts, was a tough cookie (just ask Warren Waste).

and with a gun(what does the military teach about the element of surprise?),

The fact that the first assailant didn't shoot should tell you something. Did they want to murder J or take his plates?

and 2) outrunning multiple assailants, per the story, with the plates "tucked under the arm".

You keep making this unsupported claim. Either provide some evidence or quit making this claim. Lucy didn't say he outran multiple assailants. He clobbered one then ran. She never says the assialant (or any other assailant) gave chase. She never says that he continued to keep the plates tucked under the arm. He left the hollowed-out tree with the plates tucked under his arm. I'll bet you've left the house with sunglasses on. Does this prove that you did not take these glasses off when entering a building, or when night fell. The only reason you keep making such claims is because this strawman appears to support your position. Repeating your claims, in the absence of evidence, doesn't make it so.

the angel Moroni stipulated that Joseph Smith take the plates from the hill to his home without laying the plates down. So, that means, no dropping plates to fight off assailants, or no dropping plates to rest at any point.

Call for references! (And don't forget, I know what's going on here too.)

[Tchild2]

You keep making this unsupported claim. Either provide some evidence or quit making this claim. Lucy didn't say he outran multiple assailants. He clobbered one then ran. She never says the assialant (or any other assailant) gave chase. She never says that he continued to keep the plates tucked under the arm. He left the hollowed-out tree with the plates tucked under his arm. I'll bet you've left the house with sunglasses on. Does this prove that you did not take these glasses off when entering a building, or when night fell. The only reason you keep making such claims is because this strawman appears to support your position. Repeating your claims, in the absence of evidence, doesn't make it so.

Willard Chase offers a very similar account:

went for his book, found it safe, took off his frock, wrapt it round it, put it under his arm and run all the way home, a distance of about two miles. He said he should think it would weigh sixty pounds, and was sure it would weigh forty. On his return home, he said he was attacked by two men in the woods, and knocked them both down and made his escape, arrived safe and secured his treasure.

Except, in Willard chase's account, Joseph "ran all the way home", and merely fought off two assailants.

To reiterate. Assuming a naturalistic explanation, the story seems to be another fabrication or embellishment Of Joseph Smiths. What LMS smith recollected may have been incomplete from her memory or Joseph Smith may have omitted many details himself. Ultimately, it is possible some version of events may have occurred, up to and including running from three (or is it two) assailants exactly as claimed. I just find it unlikely and more probable that the story served to prep others and to protect Joseph Smith from having to show the plates to others.

For Believers, it shouldn't matter because as MAsh points out, there are many unmentioned assumptions about that day, that if known, would make the story more likely to have happened just as claimed.