The weight of the golden plates

[Tchild2]

Real plates would work much better. Even covered they could be hefted & touched by others. This would undoubtedly make J feel more comfortable knowing that he wasn't just hallucinating. More than one crackpot thinks he has visitations from aliens.

What also works, and much more simply, are plates fabricated by Joseph Smith and a naturalistic explanation, as opposed to plates delivered by a resurrected angel that no on has ever seen, who only spoke to the person making the claim, of a civilization spanning a thousand years that essentially no one recognizes, except the believers. from a Judeo-Christian God who reflects the projections and inner turmoils of the men who claim he exists.

Not so, family & friends touched & hefted the plates (& even the interpreters). These were certainly not figments of J's imagination.

Right, they touched and hefted the plates through a cloth with the plates hidden from view. Why do you think the plates could be touched and hefted through cloth but not viewed? Do you believe it difficult to fashion a a 50-60 lb square metal shape that resembles something like plates when touched through a cloth? The proof is that no one was allowed to view them, because if they had, they would have seen a prop and not gold plates from antiquity. This is the "prepping" to convince others of the reality of the golden plates that I keep referring to.

There obviously would have had monetary value. J was tempted by this intially. Maybe God knew that seeing the plates might offer too much temptation to some of these financially strapped people.

So touching gold through cloth limits temptation, that seeing doesn't? Maybe Joseph Smith knew that a fabricated set of plates could be touched through a cloth to convince others, and God had nothing to do with anything?

Not in the least. The fact that real plates existed required one of two options: a) there were exactly what J said they were, J was a fraud & he created the plates. The plates were not imaginary. They provided tangible evidence for J's claims. Each person had to (and still has to) engage that evidence.

Let's rephrase your paragraph. "The fact that the story of the plates existing required one of two options:"

I agree with you that two options exist, and I am arguing option B. Since option B is an alternative, there has to be a series of explanations for B, if it did transpire that way, and that is what I am attempting to show as not only plausible, but probable.

Exactly. You either believe J's story or you MUST create an alternative explanation for the very real tangible plates

Which plates? The ones that people weren't allowed to see, only feel or heft hidden from view, and those who claimed to see them did so under very controlled conditions set forth by J.S., including ambigious "spiritual" seeing, the tangible plates that are no longer with us, and only came and left on the claims made by Joseph Smith? What is tangible about those plates?

That's why whhen I said it sticks in the craw of the critics-- I was actually quite serious. A critic MUST confront the evidence of real plates.

A critic doesn't have to do anything of the sort. A critic merely lays out the evidences as they see them; that invoking angels, God, ancient civilizations slippery treasures and seer stones isn't necessary when a simple naturalistic and everyday explanation will do. And it surely does in this case, IMHO.

[MAsh]

Willard Chase offers a very similar account:

went for his book, found it safe, took off his frock, wrapt it round it, put it under his arm and run all the way home, a distance of about two miles. He said he should think it would weigh sixty pounds, and was sure it would weigh forty. On his return home, he said he was attacked by two men in the woods, and knocked them both down and made his escape, arrived safe and secured his treasure.

Except, in Willard chase's account, Joseph "ran all the way home", and merely fought off two assailants.

And ran 2 instead of 3 miles.

And Willard's account came from where? Obviously not 1st hand. Did J tell him this story? Not likely. Willard's account is probably 3rd hand at best.

[MAsh]

What also works, and much more simply, are plates fabricated by Joseph Smith and a naturalistic explanation,

In other words real plates.

Right, they touched and hefted the plates through a cloth with the plates hidden from view. Why do you think the plates could be touched and hefted through cloth but not viewed? Do you believe it difficult to fashion a a 50-60 lb square metal shape that resembles something like plates when touched through a cloth? The proof is that no one was allowed to view them, because if they had, they would have seen a prop and not gold plates from antiquity.

In other words real plates.

So touching gold through cloth limits temptation, that seeing doesn't? Maybe Joseph Smith knew that a fabricated set of plates could be touched through a cloth to convince others, and God had nothing to do with anything?

In other words real plates.

[Mike wrote: The fact that real plates existed...]

Let's rephrase your paragraph. "The fact that the story of the plates existing...

Are you now saying that the evidence does not overwhelming support (what I would call a "fact") that there were real plates?

A critic doesn't have to do anything of the sort.

You mean you haven't had to confront the evidence that there were real plates? Then what is all this argument that the plates were not of real gold but of Joseph's creation? I don't think you're following along here.

BTW, I'm awaiting references that J had to run all the way home with plates under his arm and wasn't allowed to set them down (which means he had to fight with one hand).

[Garden Girl]

Wow... is this still going on?!

TChild... you're having a marathon run of sorts also, aren't you

Just kidding...

Sending you all good wishes on a cool, foggy, beach morning... today is our "pioneer" celebration... we are doing a community project first, then gathering for a BBQ and games out at a member's "ranch" among beautiful pines, alders, aspens, along the banks of lovely brook.

I think one of the activities should be a run through the woods by the men, carrying 40 lbs of rocks slung over their shoulders, while vaulting fallen trees...

GG

[Tchild2]

Wow... is this still going on?!

TChild... you're having a marathon run of sorts also, aren't you

Just kidding...

Sending you all good wishes on a cool, foggy, beach morning... today is our "pioneer" celebration... we are doing a community project first, then gathering for a BBQ and games out at a member's "ranch" among beautiful pines, alders, aspens, along the banks of lovely brook.

I think one of the activities should be a run through the woods by the men, carrying 40 lbs of rocks slung over their shoulders, while vaulting fallen trees...

GG

Yes, it is a marathon. Maybe better to let the events of Sept. 1827 take a breather. The 24th was a lot of fun. I ate so much food, that now, as my workout regimen, I am taking a 40 lb dumbell and am going to jog around the block. I have asked a friend of mine to hide somewhere en route to surprise me, and see if he can take my dumbell from me. No matter the outcome, I will get a good workout in the process.

Edited to add: This has actually been a rather enjoyeable thread for me, and one that has actually helped me learn a lot of previously unknown aspects of the plates and LDS history. So, thanks all for participating, especially Wade, MAsh and Sevenbak.

[Tchild2]

In other words real plates.

In other words real plates.

In other words real plates.

[Mike wrote: The fact that real plates existed...]

Are you now saying that the evidence does not overwhelming support (what I would call a "fact") that there were real plates?

Real plates might have existed. The difference is, for your story to work, there has to be resurrected angels, ancient civilizations, a satan that lays in wait to thwart men, and all the the other supernaturalism that goes along with it. My story needs only human motives and human ingenuity. I guess people are free to pick which option makes more sense, right MAsh?

You mean you haven't had to confront the evidence that there were real plates? Then what is all this argument that the plates were not of real gold but of Joseph's creation? I don't think you're following along here.

There are no real gold plates to confront, only claims of golden plates. the gulf between claimed and real plates is vast. I don't think you are following along now. Joseph claimed gold plates, then to make his story seem real, created a crude set so that others when touching them through cloth, might believe them real. That is the alternative explanation if one doesn't believe the supernaturalism that goes with the story of J.S and his "real" gold plates.

BTW, I'm awaiting references that J had to run all the way home with plates under his arm and wasn't allowed to set them down (which means he had to fight with one hand).

I never stated that Joseph Smith "ran all the way home", not once. I stated that Joseph was able to outrun three assailants. Whether the assailants gave chase is unknown, so maybe Joseph just jogged off 50 yards then sneered back...who knows? So, you are looking for a condition of the story that you have invented. Secondly, Willard Chase stated that "he ran all the way home", but that was never my point, and I just linked it for you, so I am not sure what you want, when there is an account of someone stating that Joseph, "ran all the way home"?

Lastly, as to not "laying the plates down":

According to Smith's followers, Smith had also broken the angel's commandment "not to lay the plates down, or put them for a moment out of his hands",[Mormon Wiki, citation 64 (the claimed reason why Joseph Smith had been forbidden to retrieve the plates prior to 1827)

[charity]

Two things to consider. Joseph was tall and strong and in good shape. What were his assailants? Drunken no gooders who weren't used to daily hard work, which was why they were trying to make a quick buck in the first place. Now who would you bet on in an enduarance race?

[Sevenbak]

I realize that I'm a little behind on this topic, but I can't let this go.

<!--quoteo(post=1208694844:date=Jul 18 2009, 08:11 PM:name=Sevenbak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sevenbak @ Jul 18 2009, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1208694844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If that was the case, you'd have a big problem explaining these copper Hopewell swords, knives and axes away.

<img src="http://digarch.lib.mtu.edu/images/1337_l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Are we back to this Sevenbak? If anyone has any question as to whether the objects in this photograph were manufactured by any technique other than hammering and annealing native copper, please consult the following book.

Martin, Susan R.

1999 Wonderful Power: The story of ancient copper working in the Lake Superior Basin. Wayne State University Press, Detroit.

Dr. Martin is a archaeometallurgist at Michigan Tech, where this (the John T. Reeder) collection is housed. She has examined this collection many times. She explains in detail that these objects were made without smelting. Please stop showing the photograph and claiming that these objects are proof of copper smelting in North America until you have read this book and offer a rebuttal. Especially focus on Chapter 5, Ancient Technological Practices.

Yes we're back to this. Copper alone does not hold an edge, is easily bent, and would be a ridiculous source to use for thin swords and knives like are depicted here. This is one collection of many. These are tools of war, and whether pounded or smelted, they obviously needed to be hardened with fire somehow.

[charity]

I haven't seen anyone mention the word tumbaga. Look it up on google.

[Tchild2]

I haven't seen anyone mention the word tumbaga. Look it up on google.

It has been multiple times. If plates existed, tumbaga would be the likely metallic composition. most of the arguments of the weight are taken from what the witnesses claimed the plates weighed when "hefting" them while covered. The majority put the weight of the plates in the 50-60 lb range.

Which is funny actually, because the Tanners have created a mock set made of lead and about five times thicker than the six inches in thickness reported by the early witnesses. It is obvious that the Tanner's mock set is not even a proximate recreation and misses at least two crucial plausible features that would put the plates in the 50-60 lb range; plates made of tumbaga and plates with a thickness of about six inches in depth.

[MAsh]

Real plates might have existed. The difference is, for your story to work, there has to be resurrected angels....

As I explained in another post, I wasn't going to waste my time engaging you on whether or not the plates came from an angel. You asked why God would have plates if J didn't use them during his translation. I gave you 3 reasons. I explained the advantages that "real" plates offered for J, witnesses, & the trouble they caused critics.

"My story needs only human motives and human ingenuity. I guess people are free to pick which option makes more sense, right MAsh?"

Obviously. But this doesn't brush aside the fact that there were "real" plates.

There are no real gold plates to confront, only claims of golden plates. the gulf between claimed and real plates is vast. I don't think you are following along now.

I'm following along just fine, but you are still having some trouble. I didn't say there were real "gold" plates. I didn't argue for the veracity of J's story that an angel delivered them. I simply stated that there were "real" plates. You've conceded this point multiple times, yet you still think that I'm arguing about "golden" plates or J's account of the visitation of an angel.

I never stated that Joseph Smith "ran all the way home", not once. I stated that Joseph was able to outrun three assailants.

It seemed implied by your argument. But ok, you are claiming that according to L, J was able to outrun three assailants. I say that this is an assumption on your part and is not warranted by the 2nd (or 3rd) hand accounts.

Whether the assailants gave chase is unknown, so maybe Joseph just jogged off 50 yards then sneered back...who knows? So, you are looking for a condition of the story that you have invented.

Actually, you are the one inventing the details. The details are not found in the text. You put forth an assumption with invented details. I simply noted that if we're coming up with extra details, my assumption is at least equally valid as yours.

For your argument about setting down the plates you give a link to a Wikipedia article that has this: According to Smith's followers, Smith had also broken the angel's commandment "not to lay the plates down, or put them for a moment out of his hands."

The footnoted sources for this quote are LMS history & recollection by Joseph Knight.

Unless you want to take this to a different thread, I'm going to concentrate on this issue for the following reason: Your belief that J couldn't set down the plates is a major key to your interpretation of L's retelling of J's escape from his assailants.

1) According your argument, J couldn't run away from his assailants (while being chased) because he wouldn't have been able to run as quickly as they could run while carrying the heavy plates (which you seem to insist was under his arm... while I disagree that he must have carried them that way for his entire journey, this is immaterial for this particular part of the argument). This wouldn't really be a big deal if J didn't have to try to outrun his assialants. If he clobbered them so they were unconcious or hurt to the point that they couldn't/wouldn't follow him, then the story works just fine.

2) You have stated that the story appears contrived because J could not have fought off his attackers with a single hand (and, of course, per above, he couldn't outrun them with the plates so he would need to beat them silly in order to leave them behind).

3) The issue, at least in part-- for those who don't believe that God is powerful enough to handle J's delimma-- is that J couldn't fight off his attackers with a single hand or outrun them carrying the plates.

4) According to Tchild2, J must have either haver outrun them while carrying the plates or fought them with one hand because he wasn't allowed to set the plates down.

So let's look at the sources footnoted by Wikipedia. The Knight recollection tells us nothing about setting down the plates, but Dean Jessee (in the reproduction of Knight's account as sourced by Wikipedia) has a footnote that quotes L's account.

Lucy wrote (pertinent information bolded): â??...having arrived at the place, he put forth his hand and took them up, but, as he was taking them hence, the unhappy thought darted through his mind that probably there was something else in the box, besides the plates, which would be of some pecuniary advantage to him. So, in the moment of excitement, he laid them down very carefully, for the purpose of covering the box, lest some one might happen to pass that way and get whatever there might be remaining in it. After covering it, he turned round to take the Record again, but behold it was gone, and where he knew not, neither did he know the means by which it had been taken from him. â??At this, as a natural consequence, he was much alarmed. He kneeled down and asked the Lord why the Record had been taken from him; upon which the angel of the Lord appeared to him, and told him that he had not done as he had been commanded, for in a former revelation he had been commanded not to lay the plates down, or put them for a moment out of his hands, until he got into the house and deposited them in a chest or trunk, having a good lock and key, and, contrary to his, he had laid them down with the view of securing some fancied or imaginary treasure that remained."

So there we go, this quote from L seems to support Tchild2's claim that J could not set down the plates. So either J outran his assailants while carrying the plates or he fought them off with a single hand.

Tchild2, tell me why L's retelling of the angel's directions are not applicable to the event w/ J's assailants... I'm sure you're bright enough to figure it out.

[LeSellers]

Do you believe it difficult to fashion a a 50-60 lb square metal shape that resembles something like plates when touched through a cloth? The proof is that no one was allowed to view them, because if they had, they would have seen a prop and not gold plates from antiquity. This is the "prepping" to convince others of the reality of the golden plates that I keep referring to.

Yet Emma attests that she moved them around while she was cleaning the house, and that, when she thumbed them, through the cloth, they "rustled" like thick paper, but with a metallic sound.

A "square [sic — did you mean "cubic"?] metal shape" would not rustle, nor would any metal but a soft one (like tumbaga) flex and give that distinctive metallic sound she described.

There were plates real, golden plates.

Lehi

[wenglund]

Tchild2

By way of clarification:

1) "Real plates" = either the ancient gold plates or the "prop" as you call it.

2) Once Joseph had retrieved the plates from the hill, he placed them in tree and went home, thereby putting the plates down and out of his possession. Thereafter, he frequently put the plates down (under the hearth, in a barrel, on the table when translating, etc.), though not entirely out of his possession. This suggests that at least in Joseph's understanding, the words of the angel were not meant to be taken literally or absolutely, but as a stern warning to protect the plates and keep them from harm and from others--hence the angel's mention of a lockable chest with which to secure the plate. So, the words of the angel two years prior to the event in question do not dissallow Joseph from setting the frock-covered plates down for a moment when confronted by intruders. In fact, they may even be reasonably understood to have required it.

3) Can you think of a reason why we allow others to touch and heft their wrapped presents, but not see them unwrapped until the time is right?

Now, nothing that MAsh and I have said, nor all that is contained in the historical record, necessitates belief in the Book of Mormon as an authentic scriptural account of an ancient people. It is yet a matter of faith--and this, I believe, by design. As such, you can reasonably not believe it, and perhaps even disbelieve it.

As I see it, where you and others end up getting yourself into trouble, is when you go beyond not being convinced by the evidence or disbelieving even given the evidence, and attempt to posit a naturalistic theory to explain the evidence. You and others end up positing theories that seem, at least to me, to be more fantastic than the supernatural theories. And , if you think about it, you really don't need to posit a naturalistic theory. You can leave the burden of "proof" with God. You don't need to take that burden on yourself by positing a naturalistic theory--though I am happy when you and others try since your seemingly fantastic naturalistic theories makes the supernaturalistic account all the more easily to believe.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tchild2]

Actually, you are the one inventing the details. The details are not found in the text. You put forth an assumption with invented details. I simply noted that if we're coming up with extra details, my assumption is at least equally valid as yours.

I have agreed with this. Your assumptions are as valid as mine. I have been interpreting the recollection of LMS as it has been stated. The unknowns could obviously affect the story and its plausibility.

2) You have stated that the story appears contrived because J could not have fought off his attackers with a single hand (and, of course, per above, he couldn't outrun them with the plates so he would need to beat them silly in order to leave them behind).

The story seems contrived mostly because there just happened to be three attackers laying in wait on the day of delivery and the ability of Joseph to elude them. When Joseph introduced his prop set, he absolutely had to have others "prepped" as to how valuable they were and how important that they always be out of sight and secreted away. All the details of the story are not that important, given that the "prepping" had to be. If the events happened, I only assume Joseph Smith fought off assailants because LMS states that Joseph "tucked the plates under his arm, then headed home". I could assume anything if I wanted I guess, but I don't have much to back up my assumptions, except what has been stated by others.

3) The issue, at least in part-- for those who don't believe that God is powerful enough to handle J's delimma-- is that J couldn't fight off his attackers with a single hand or outrun them carrying the plates.

I am looking at an explanation(s) that doesn't require God as a solution to explaning the story.

4) According to Tchild2, J must have either haver outrun them while carrying the plates or fought them with one hand because he wasn't allowed to set the plates down.

I am going off what has been stated by others in the early record.

Tchild2, tell me why L's retelling of the angel's directions are not applicable to the event w/ J's assailants... I'm sure you're bright enough to figure it out.

If a real angel existed, he probably wouldn't care if Joseph set the plates down to fight off attackers. Angels have common sense don't they? .

For me, interlocking the pieces of the many stories and accounts, I see them all serving to prep others as to Joseph Smith being the exclusive agent of the plates, and why others would be forbidden to see them. My theory is that Joseph may never have intended to move past the "story" stage (four years of angel visits is the excuse), then later felt confident to introduce a fabricated prop. That is just my theory, and it is possible that Joseph always intended to eventually have a prop to show to others in a controlled setting.

[Tchild2]

Yet Emma attests that she moved them around while she was cleaning the house, and that, when she thumbed them, through the cloth, they "rustled" like thick paper, but with a metallic sound.

Sure, tin plates served as the top pages and the "sealed portion" as the bulk of the prop that needn't be in sheet form. Notice how Emma touched them covered? Tin sheets would probably have been used at J.S Sr's house serving as a cooper shop.

A "square [sic metal shape" would not rustle, nor would any metal but a soft one (like tumbaga) flex and give that distinctive metallic sound she described.

I haven't had time to delve into how the set was made, but taking tin sheets (from a cooper shop) and cutting them to size (with a metal cutter available at a cooper shop), and then punching holes into the sheet metal (with a metal awl or punch at a cooper shop, or from elsewhere), would have been a rather easy task. The claimed "sealed portion" could have been tin covered iron sheets lumped together tinsmithing, or possibly an area for lead or heavier metal if the tin plates didn't weigh much. If the "tin" were tin plated iron, then you have your weight of 50-60 lbs based on the dimensions described.

There were plates — real, golden plates.

That is one option. There other is that there were no ancient plates, but a series of events undertaken to make others believe that there were.

[MAsh]

Wade has it exactly right.

[LeSellers]

Sure, tin plates served as the top pages and the "sealed portion" as the bulk of the prop that needn't be in sheet form. Notice how Emma touched them covered? Tin sheets would probably have been used at J.S Sr's house serving as a cooper shop.

Do you have any evidence that a cooper would use tin in his shop?

As I recall, a cooper took iron strips, cut them to length, riveted (or welded, a much more difficult process) them into bands, and then forced them onto the staves. There was no need for tin.

I haven't had time to delve into how the set was made, but taking tin sheets (from a cooper shop) and cutting them to size (with a metal cutter available at a cooper shop), and then punching holes into the sheet metal (with a metal awl or punch at a cooper shop, or from elsewhere), would have been a rather easy task.

It's a lot easier, I suppose, if you have tin in the cooper's shop. Tin was (and is) expensive.

That is one option. There other is that there were no ancient plates, but a series of events undertaken to make others believe that there were.

That only works until you show them to other people, which Joseph did.

Lehi

[Tchild2]

1) "Real plates" = either the ancient gold plates or the "prop" as you call it.

2) Once Joseph had retrieved the plates from the hill, he placed them in tree and went home, thereby putting the plates down and out of his possession. Thereafter, he frequently put the plates down (under the hearth, in a barrel, on the table when translating, etc.), though not entirely out of his possession. This suggests that at least in Joseph's understanding, the words of the angel were not meant to be taken literally or absolutely, but as a stern warning to protect the plates and keep them from harm and from others--hence the angel's mention of a lockable chest with which to secure the plate. So, the words of the angel two years prior to the event in question do not dissallow Joseph from setting the frock-covered plates down for a moment when confronted by intruders. In fact, they may even be reasonably understood to have required it.

As I responded to MAsh. "If a real angel existed, he probably wouldn't care if Joseph set the plates down to fight off attackers. Angels have common sense don't they?"

3) Can you think of a reason why we allow others to touch and heft their wrapped presents, but not see them unwrapped until the time is right?

Without invoking God or specific commands from angels? I cannot. I can't think of why someone would withold from sight golden plates from antiquity. I can see Joseph Smith keeping them hidden so that they were never stolen (if real gold), but if J.S. were to make them available to some, controlled touching and hefting while covered doesn't make sense (except as a deception) Can believers explain why golden plates must be unseen but sacred scriptures from Abraham, in the form of Paypri were not?

Now, nothing that MAsh and I have said, nor all that is contained in the historical record, necessitates belief in the Book of Mormon as an authentic scriptural account of an ancient people. It is yet a matter of faith--and this, I believe, by design. As such, you can reasonably not believe it, and perhaps even disbelieve it.

I respect that. I make my arguments because the debate is enjoyeable, and I hope that believers are not distressed by comments in any way.

As I see it, where you and others end up getting yourself into trouble, is when you go beyond not being convinced by the evidence or disbelieving even given the evidence, and attempt to posit a naturalistic theory to explain the evidence. You and others end up positing theories that seem, at least to me, to be more fantastic than the supernatural theories. And , if you think about it, you really don't need to posit a naturalistic theory. You can leave the burden of "proof" with God. You don't need to take that burden on yourself by positing a naturalistic theory--though I am happy when you and others try since your seemingly fantastic naturalistic theories makes the supernaturalistic account all the more easily to believe.

I am definitely impressed with Joseph Smith and the belief he fostered about the validity of the plates. Genius IMO, but with an everyday explanation. If others are not convinced, that is OK, and was not the point. Debate to explore different options was the goal.

[MAsh]

The story seems contrived mostly because there just happened to be three attackers laying in wait on the day of delivery and the ability of Joseph to elude them.

I'm amazed that you would make such a claim after supposedly having read the relevant material on this. Please show me where 3 attackers were "laying in wait." You are inventing material and are no way "going off what has been stated by others in the early record."

[snip]

I am going off what has been stated by others in the early record.

Really? What did J & the witnesses say about the plates? Are you going off what they have stated?

My theory is that Joseph may never have intended to move past the "story" stage (four years of angel visits is the excuse), then later felt confident to introduce a fabricated prop. That is just my theory, and it is possible that Joseph always intended to eventually have a prop to show to others in a controlled setting.

Of course your "theory" must reject lots of testimony from many witnesses (or at least alter the understanding of those testimonies in substantial ways). I've already found that you are either intentionally or unintentionally unwilling/unable to grasp the significant problems in your theory about J's encounter with assailants who tried to take the plates, so I really don't plan on engaging you with the many errors regarding your theory about "tin" plates. I've wasted too much time and don't want to waste any more.

[Sevenbak]

T-Child, you keep bringing up the Cooper Shop as the focus of all of Joseph's metallurgy "skills."

It was a small shack near the house, that Hyrum used in making barrels to sell. These were poor people. We have no indication that anything other than a few barrels, or even that a large inventory of pricey tin would have been available.

Anyone know what kind of metal was used in coopering in the early 1800's in Western NY?

[Sevenbak]

Do you have any evidence that a cooper would use tin in his shop?

As I recall, a cooper took iron strips, cut them to length, riveted (or welded, a much more difficult process) them into bands, and then forced them onto the staves. There was no need for tin.

It's a lot easier, I suppose, if you have tin in the cooper's shop. Tin was (and is) expensive.

That only works until you show them to other people, which Joseph did.

Lehi

Beat me to it. Thanks.

[Tchild2]

I'm amazed that you would make such a claim after supposedly having read the relevant material on this. Please show me where 3 attackers were "laying in wait." You are inventing material and are no way "going off what has been stated by others in the early record."

Sorry, I paraphrase to save time.

Lets read the account together OK MAsh?:

he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time

We have two assailants able to surprise Joseph, one enough to strike him. The account states that the second assailant attacked "in the same manner as before" What does that mean to you, if it was in the "same manner"? Please elaborate. So, we have two attackers surprising Joseph Smith. Is 2 out of 3 good enough for you?

Really? What did J & the witnesses say about the plates? Are you going off what they have stated?

Did the witnesses provide affidavits? Were the settings of their "witness" controlled? Were there witnesses of the plates unbiased to "witness" without conditions set and controlled by J.S?

Of course your "theory" must reject lots of testimony from many witnesses (or at least alter the understanding of those testimonies in substantial ways). I've already found that you are either intentionally or unintentionally unwilling/unable to grasp the significant problems in your theory about J's encounter with assailants who tried to take the plates, so I really don't plan on engaging you with the many errors regarding your theory about "tin" plates. I've wasted too much time and don't want to waste any more.

I have stated already that the 3 and 8 witnesses are "evidences" in favor of the plates. That doesn't mean that an explanation doesn't exist, it just makes one harder to explain. If you feel you have wasted time, then please don't participate.

If you think that secret angels, devils, golden plates and ancient civilizations makes more sense, then you can confidently relax with those assurances.

[Sevenbak]

As I responded to MAsh. "If a real angel existed, he probably wouldn't care if Joseph set the plates down to fight off attackers. Angels have common sense don't they?"

Without invoking God or specific commands from angels? I cannot. I can't think of why someone would withold from sight golden plates from antiquity. I can see Joseph Smith keeping them hidden so that they were never stolen (if real gold), but if J.S. were to make them available to some, controlled touching and hefting while covered doesn't make sense (except as a deception) Can believers explain why golden plates must be unseen but sacred scriptures from Abraham, in the form of Paypri were not?

I respect that. I make my arguments because the debate is enjoyeable, and I hope that believers are not distressed by comments in any way.

I am definitely impressed with Joseph Smith and the belief he fostered about the validity of the plates. Genius IMO, but with an everyday explanation. If others are not convinced, that is OK, and was not the point. Debate to explore different options was the goal.

Weren't you going to start that other thread about the 11 witnesses, 8 of which saw, hefted, and handled the leaves, described engravings of ancient origin, etc.

Or do those witnesses not count in this discussion?

Joseph was commanded not to show the plates until the Lord's timeframe. He was obedient to a heavenly messenger. Yet 11 people officially saw them, and others after that.

I wonder if he went to a bigger cooper shop in town...

[Tchild2]

T-Child, you keep bringing up the Cooper Shop as the focus of all of Joseph's metallurgy "skills."

It was a small shack near the house, that Hyrum used in making barrels to sell. These were poor people. We have no indication that anything other than a few barrels, or even that a large inventory of pricey tin would have been available.

Anyone know what kind of metal was used in coopering in the early 1800's in Western NY?

Hence a crude set right? How much do you think it would cost to acquire 50-60 lbs of iron covered tin (not pure tin, but tinsmithing), with maybe some lead thrown in for the right weight?

Tin strips maybe to save on costs? How many cut sheets to pass the "rustle" of pages and turn the pages test....4,5,6?

[Tchild2]

dastardly new system is sloooowww!