The weight of the golden plates

[Tchild2]

As I mentioned earlier, there are those of us who aren't certain whether Lucy's late secondhand account of the event in question is entirely accurate or not, but could care less one way or the other since upon none of her story do any of us (at least to my knowledge) rest our faith in the restored gospel and the verity of the Book of Mormon. In truth, it is a non-issue for us.

Of course, because the faithful believe in the golden plates, prophets, angels and a gospel restoration. In that context, the story makes perfect sense.

1. What portions, if any, of Lucy's late secondhand account of the event in question do you believe Joseph had actually told her?

Maybe he prattled on for hours and hours, or maybe he outlined essentially what she recollected. Who knows? Lucy Mack Smith did know some pretty mundane details about bark, logs and hollow cavities, to have just been given a sketch of the days events by Joseph Smith:

Finding an old birch log much decayed, excepting the bark, which was in a measure sound, he took his pocket knife and cut the bark with some care, then turned it back and made a hole of sufficient size to receive the plates, and, laying them in the cavity thus formed, he replaced the bark; after which he laid across the log, in several places, some old stuff that happened to lay near, in order to conceal as much as possible the place in which they were deposited.

2. What portions, if any, of what you believe Joseph told Lucy, do you think actually happened?

Lucy Mack Smith probably believed every word. For myself, I believe the event to be mostly embelleshed. The motive? Joseph Smith had to create the impression that the plates were incredibly valuable and sought after and as such they must be hidden away and scarcely even looked at. From a skeptics viewpoint, Joseph Smith knew his prop wasn't worth anything if stolen, but having it discovered as nothing but common tin plate (or whatever it was fashioned from), would thwart his story and what he endeavored to accomplish with the story of the plates. Of course, it is possible that some less menacing version of events happened that Joseph used as his story template.

It should be noted that Joseph Knight, Sr.'s journal corraborates at least that he was there at the Smiths during the event in question, and was told by Joseph Smith about the plates and the Urim and Thummim. (see HERE)

It should also be noted that Willard Chase claimed that Joseph Sr had told him about the plates in June of 1827, and that in September of the same year Joseph Jr had asked him to make a chest to lock up the "gold book". (see mormoninformation website on wchase)

Which story corrobates closely with that of Lucy Mack Smith (outrunning assailants). So, it stands to reason that the story that Lucy Mack Smith recollected, was close to the version of events that was related to her originally by Joseph Smith.

And as for Lehi's CFR. Additional research provided by Mash confirmed to me that the knowledge of the plates was well established, and it would be plausible that treasure seeking robbers would be potentially lying in wait for a chance at the gold...er, near goldless tumbaga.

[mledbetter]

And chances are that you weren't running from people who were trying to attack or kill you.Not for this race.

On a tangent, though, a 5 kilometers race is right close to 3 miles (the same distance JS was on the run for whilst carrying the Golden Plates.) So entirely for kicks and giggles, I think the church should create and sponsor an annual 5K (3 mi.) race of their own. It would be the perfect addition to the Pioneer Day celebrations coming up in a few days. The current 5K race that's part of the Deseret News Marathon could be phased out and replaced with "The Deseret News Joseph Smith Golden Plates 5K."

Oh we're used to irrelevant tangents by skeptics around here. Please continue.

Also, please take into consideration that people in less modern times, especially before the automobile, were much more used to running than your or I. They would probably scoff at the idea of us running 5k distances and calling ourselves athletes.

[wenglund]

Of course, because the faithful believe in the golden plates, prophets, angels and a gospel restoration. In that context, the story makes perfect sense.

Whether it makes sense or not, it is still a non-issue to us LDS.

For myself, I believe the event to be mostly embelleshed.

Could you be more specific and indicate which portions you believe to have occured and which you believe to have been "embelleshed", and for the "embelleshed portions" describe what you believe to be what actually happened?

Once we know what it is that you do believe about the event in question, we can then test your hypothesized motives against your belief and other historical facts.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tchild2]

Whether it makes sense or not, it is still a non-issue to us LDS.

That is understandable.

Could you be more specific and indicate which portions you believe to have occured and which you believe to have been "embelleshed", and for the "embelleshed portions" describe what you believe to be what actually happened?

I am curious how such speculations might enlighten you, or help us understand if the specific history given by LMS and William B Smith is accurate or not? If Joseph never spoke to an angel and never retrieved gold plates, then any multitude of variable scenarios is open. We could just pick them all and say any one is as probable as another.

Once we know what it is that you do believe about the event in question, we can then test your hypothesized motives against your belief and other historical facts.

I don't believe that Joseph Smith was in possession of real golden plates from antiquity. I don't believe he fought off three attackers in the described manner. Anything less than the two aforementioned events could be plausible scenarios for what really happened.

In fact, you could do it for me Wade. Create a scenario where Joseph Smith is walking home through the woods without real gold plates and not fighting and outrunning three surprising attackers, and I will give it the thumbs up. In fact, you could actually create a scenario without the gold plates, but the three attackers, and I would still be on board....but probably a bit skeptical of the attackers.

[shrff]

I realize that I'm a little behind on this topic, but I can't let this go.

If that was the case, you'd have a big problem explaining these copper Hopewell swords, knives and axes away.

Are we back to this Sevenbak? If anyone has any question as to whether the objects in this photograph were manufactured by any technique other than hammering and annealing native copper, please consult the following book.

Martin, Susan R.

1999 Wonderful Power: The story of ancient copper working in the Lake Superior Basin. Wayne State University Press, Detroit.

Dr. Martin is a archaeometallurgist at Michigan Tech, where this (the John T. Reeder) collection is housed. She has examined this collection many times. She explains in detail that these objects were made without smelting. Please stop showing the photograph and claiming that these objects are proof of copper smelting in North America until you have read this book and offer a rebuttal. Especially focus on Chapter 5, Ancient Technological Practices.

[krose]

So now Joseph was fighting football players who had their own weight room in 1829? Must have been time traveling NFLers

I hope you're just looking for an opportunity to make a joke. Because I thought it was pretty clear that my point was just to illustrate that farming, on its own, is not the ultimate in body-building techniques, and not enough reason to attribute exceptional strength to a person.

[LeSellers]

I hope you're just looking for an opportunity to make a joke. Because I thought it was pretty clear that my point was just to illustrate that farming, on its own, is not the ultimate in body-building techniques, and not enough reason to attribute exceptional strength to a person.

However, it is a good-to-great exercise regimen, and Joseph Smith was exceptionally strong by all accounts. From his early youth (his leg notwithstanding), he could out work, out wrestle, out stick-pull, the entire populace. It was one of the things he was most famous for, beyond his prophetic calling. That is one reason that farmers who hired day labor chose him over others. He got the job done, and worked when other lagged behind. An account by a woman who remembered him relates how her own brohters would not carry her home at the end of a tiring (for the workers) day, but Joseph hoisted her up to his shoulder and, game leg and all, took her home.

He was much taller than the average man at about 6'2", iIRC, and in spite of his mid-thirties corpulence, could still hold his own against most others.

I understand your reluctance to see him as strong, because to admit that he could have done what his mother records (and others substantiate) would deny you an attack weapon. So this endless onslaught on his physical strength is just another means of undermining his history. But, whether you like it or not, Joseph Smith was a very strong man, and the story is more than merely plausible based on his physique.

Lehi

[wenglund]

I am curious how such speculations might enlighten you, or help us understand if the specific history given by LMS and William B Smith is accurate or not?

Since the event in question is of such importance to your disbelief, and since you are so favorable to skepticism, I think it only fair that you put your own version of the events on the table for scrutiny. You have already posited a motive for the story being told as it was. Then, to see if your hypothesized motive makes sense, we need to have an historical context to test it against. It is up to you to provide that historical context.

If Joseph never spoke to an angel and never retrieved gold plates, then any multitude of variable scenarios is open. We could just pick them all and say any one is as probable as another.

Then pick one and let's see if your hypothesized motive makes sense.

I don't believe that Joseph Smith was in possession of real golden plates from antiquity. I don't believe he fought off three attackers in the described manner. Anything less than the two aforementioned events could be plausible scenarios for what really happened.

Do you believe he had any plates at all at the time? Did he encounter any attackers?

In fact, you could do it for me Wade. Create a scenario where Joseph Smith is walking home through the woods without real gold plates and not fighting and outrunning three surprising attackers, and I will give it the thumbs up. In fact, you could actually create a scenario without the gold plates, but the three attackers, and I would still be on board....but probably a bit skeptical of the attackers.

I will let you do your own work since this is so important to you, and besides you may want to assure that your version of the events fits your hypothesized motive.

Please keep in mind that there is historical data indicating that Joseph had told his family about the plates as early as 1823, four years before the event in question. Also, as previously indicated, Willard Chase claims to have heard about the plates months before the event in question. And, we also have this from Joseph Knight, Sr.:

"Now he [Joseph Smith jr] was Commanded not to let no one see those things But a few for witness at a given time. Now it soon got about that Joseph Smith had found the plates and peopel Come in to see them But he told them that they Could not for he must not shoe them. But many insisted and oferd money and Property to see them. But, for keeping them from the Peopel they persecuted and abused them and they ware obliged to hide them, and they hid them under a Brick harth in the west Room. About this time Came this Samuel Lawrance and one Beeman a grate Rodsman and wanted to talk with him. And he went into the west Room and they Proposed to go shares with him and tried every way to Bargain with him But Could not. Then Beeman took out his Rods and hild them up and they pointed Dow to the harth whare they ware hid. "There," says Beeman, "it is under that harth." So they had to garde the house until some time in November. He obtaind fifty Dollars in money and hired a man to move him and his wife to Pensylvany to hir Fathers, his wife Being onwell and wanted to go to her Fathers. He Bout a piece of Land of hir Father with a house and Barn on it. Here the People Began to tease him to see the Book and to offer him money and property and they Crouded so harde that he had to hide it in the Mountin." (see HERE)

According to both Knight and Chase, a Samuel Lawrence also had been told about the plates as early as 1825, and had even visit the hill where they were buried, though he wasn't shown exactly where the plates were buried. (see HERE)

Here is a version given by Peter Ingersoll in 1833 that you may find useful. But, I warn you that it doesn't fit very well various historical facts:

"One day he came, and greeted me with a joyful countenance. -- Upon asking the cause of his unusual happiness, he replied in the following language: "As I was passing, yesterday, across the woods, after a heavy shower of rain, I found, in a hollow, some beautiful white sand, that had been washed up by the water. I took off my frock, and tied up several quarts of it, and then went home. On my entering the house, I found the family at the table eating dinner. They were all anxious to know the contents of my frock. At that moment, I happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible. To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refuse to see it, and left the room." Now, said Jo, "I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun." Notwithstanding, he told me he had no such book, and believed there never was any such book, yet, he told me that he actually went to Willard Chase, to get him to make a chest, in which he might deposit his golden Bible. But, as Chase would not do it, he made a box himself, of clap-boards, and put it into a pillow case, and allowed people only to lift it, and feel of it through the case." (see HERE)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tchild2]

Since the event in question is of such importance to your disbelief, and since you are so favorable to skepticism, I think it only fair that you put your own version of the events on the table for scrutiny. You have already posited a motive for the story being told as it was. Then, to see if your hypothesized motive makes sense, we need to have an historical context to test it against. It is up to you to provide that historical context.

My version of events is that Joseph Smith wanted to introduce his fabricated plates (prop) and he needed to have plenty of reasons why he could not show the plates to others, especially his family and close associates. The story related to Lucy Mack Smith was either a total embellishment, or a template based on a scaled back series of events. It is evident that Joseph Smith went to some pains and effort to prepare to introduce his fabricated set.

Then pick one and let's see if your hypothesized motive makes sense.

As to motives, this thread is rather short to speculate to much degree, but his motives are probably as mundane as yours or mine: 1) financial gain and/or credibility as a scryer or seer stone looker(indirect gain), 2) notoriety, fame, excitement. 3) "Pious fraud", or as a series of claims and stories to introduce certain Christian theological concepts and ideas he pondered and thought about. 4) some combinatoin of the above, or other motives.

Do you believe he had any plates at all at the time? Did he encounter any attackers?

I believe he intended to introduce his fabricated plates on the day of the alleged events. If he had crafted them, he either had to transport them from some secreted location, or he needed a compelling story for his family's sake to lend credibility to his golden plates. I doubt he encountered "attackers", but he definitely felt threatened by others. (see comments below) From Mormon wiki:

Another of Smith's former treasure-hunting associates, Samuel T. Lawrence, was also apparently aware of the approaching date to obtain the plates, and Smith was concerned he might cause trouble.[79] Therefore, on the eve of September 22, 1827, the scheduled date for retrieving the plates, Smith dispatched his father to spy on Lawrence's house until dark. If Lawrence attempted to leave, the elder Joseph would have informed him that his son would "thrash the stumps with him" if he found him at the hill, but Lawrence never left his home.[80] Late at night, Smith took a horse and carriage to the hill Cumorah with his wife Emma.[81] While Emma stayed in the wagon kneeling in prayer,[82] Joseph walked to what he said was the site of the Golden Plates. Some time in the early morning hours, he said he retrieved the plates and hid them in a hollow log on or near Cumorah.

From the above, we see that Joseph felt threatened by the prospect of another person loitering around the hill Cumorah on the date of the purported retrieval. Perhaps another person there would be able to interfere with the unfolding story, or perhaps the fabricated set lay secreted nearby.

Ultimately, the prop that Joseph introduced that day, had the shape, feel, dimensions and weight that was reported by many, but those others were not allowed to look, only to feel through a cloth, including the urim and thummin: "He refused to allow anyone, including his family, to view the plates or the other artifacts he said he had in his possession, although some people were allowed to heft them or feel what were said to be the artifacts through a cloth.

[Moon Quaker]

And chances are that you weren't running from people who were trying to attack or kill you.Not for this race.

On a tangent, though, a 5 kilometers race is right close to 3 miles (the same distance JS was on the run for whilst carrying the Golden Plates.) So entirely for kicks and giggles, I think the church should create and sponsor an annual 5K (3 mi.) race of their own. It would be the perfect addition to the Pioneer Day celebrations coming up in a few days. The current 5K race that's part of the Deseret News Marathon could be phased out and replaced with "The Deseret News Joseph Smith Golden Plates 5K."

Oh we're used to irrelevant tangents by skeptics around here. Please continue.

I was just being facetious. If you don't like my light-heartedness, there's always the "ignore" button.

Also, please take into consideration that people in less modern times, especially before the automobile, were much more used to running than your or I. They would probably scoff at the idea of us running 5k distances and calling ourselves athletes.

Speak for yourself. I'm an avid marathoner; I consider anything less than 15 miles as a "jog in the park." If I were up against Joseph Smith for a ≥5K race, I'd whoop his butt.

[krose]

I understand your reluctance to see him as strong, because to admit that he could have done what his mother records (and others substantiate) would deny you an attack weapon. So this endless onslaught on his physical strength is just another means of undermining his history. But, whether you like it or not, Joseph Smith was a very strong man, and the story is more than merely plausible based on his physique.

That's just silly. Trust me; disbelievers in Joseph as an actual prophet don't need to go looking for more reasons. This is merely an entertaining tall tale that we can have some fun with. Whether it happened as told or it didn't (or whether he was as strong as Charles Atlas), has no bearing on the truth of his claims that he saw angels and gods, or found and translated ancient buried treasures.

This is the great kind of story that helps believers build up a larger-than-life, hero mythology, while simultaneously giving skeptics a good chuckle.

[mledbetter]

Oh we're used to irrelevant tangents by skeptics around here. Please continue.I was just being facetious. If you don't like my light-heartedness, there's always the "ignore" button.

Why would I do that when I asked you to continue. I'm having fun, too. :-)

Speak for yourself. I'm an avid marathoner; I consider anything less than 15 miles as a "jog in the park." If I were up against Joseph Smith for a ≥5K race, I'd whoop his butt.

I was an avid runner too, until I hurt my back. I tried to get back into in about 2 years ago and was training for a marathon. I was running a 13 miler one day and I just couldn't do it anymore because my entire right leg went numb. I'm supposed to start physical therapy, but just got too lazy once I stopped running. Trying to get into cycling, now.

BTW, I think someone like Joseph or any farm boy from his time might seriously surprise you.

Not speaking for Josephs day, but I remember reading a book (can't remember cuz it was long ago) about the crusades and Richard the Lion Heart. It wasn't unusual for a runner to travel distances of a marathon or even greater. These people were used to running all over the place and they could go places the horses couldn't. Horses were expensive and most people actually didn't have them. Besides, a nobleman didn't have to waste a good horse when he could send a fast running peasant boy on an errand. Humans are designed for running ever since we left the trees to find better sources of food.

I'm only imagining that up until the automobile, things didn't change much as far as this was concerned. That's only a guess, seeing how even in Josephs day not everyone had a riding horse--or at least not enough for the entire family to get about.

[LeSellers]

That's just silly. Trust me; disbelievers in Joseph as an actual prophet don't need to go looking for more reasons.

Yes, I know: your minds are made up, and there is no need to reveal more facts.

But, that's not what I said anyway. What I said was it would deny you an attack weapon, not "more reasons"

This is merely an entertaining tall tale that we can have some fun with.

Your definition of a "Tale Tale" is a bit odd. Tale Tales include Pecos Bill and Paul Bunyan, not farm boys who can run short distances and vault over logs, after knocking down opponents who were trying to steal that which was entrusted to him.

Whether it happened as told or it didn't (or whether he was as strong as Charles Atlas), has no bearing on the truth of his claims that he saw angels and gods, or found and translated ancient buried treasures.

This is false. It has everything to do with his calling.

This is the great kind of story that helps believers build up a larger-than-life, hero mythology, ...

There s no basis for a "larger-than-life hero" here. I doubt you could find five LDSs who use this story for evaluating Joseph Smith as a hero at all, larger-than-life or otherwise.

No doubt many of his contemporaries would manage similar things. And he was stronger than most, according to contemporary accounts.

... while simultaneously giving skeptics a good chuckle.

You are far beyond mere skeptic.

Lehi

[wenglund]

I believe he intended to introduce his fabricated plates on the day of the alleged events. If he had crafted them, he either had to transport them from some secreted location, or he needed a compelling story for his family's sake to lend credibility to his golden plates. I doubt he encountered "attackers", but he definitely felt threatened by others. From the above, we see that Joseph felt threatened by the prospect of another person loitering around the hill Cumorah on the date of the purported retrieval. Perhaps another person there would be able to interfere with the unfolding story, or perhaps the fabricated set lay secreted nearby.

Ultimately, the prop that Joseph introduced that day, had the shape, feel, dimensions and weight that was reported by many, but those others were not allowed to look, only to feel through a cloth, including the urim and thummin.

This gives us at least a little something to work with. Let's put your surmizing into narrative form along with your hypothesized motive for Joseph telling the story in question as conveyed by his mother and Joseph Knight Sr.. But, before doing so, perhaps a little background information would prove useful so as to put your surmizings into proper context.

In September of 1823, Joseph Smith, who was then near 18-years-old, told his family about being visited by an angel and shown some ancient plates that were buried in a nearby hill. At that time he asked the family not to mention to anyone else any of what he would tell them about the plates because the "world was so wicked that when they came to a knowledge of these flyings they would try to take our lives; and that when we should obtain the plates, our names would be east out as evil by all people. Hence the necessity of suppressing these things as much as possible, until the time should come for them to go forth to the world."

So, three years prior to the event in question, we find Joseph already expressing concern about non-family members finding out about the plates.

The following September, Joseph told his family about his having once again visited the location of the plates, and that "having arrived at the place, and uncovering the plates, he put forth his hand and took them up, but, as he was taking them hence, the unhappy thought darted through his mind that probably there was something else in the box besides the plates, which would be of some pecuniary advantage to him. So, in the moment of excitement, he laid them down very carefully, for the purpose of covering the box, lest some one might happen to pass that way and get whatever there might be remaining in it. After covering it, he turned round to take the Record again, but behold it was gone, and where, he knew not, neither did he know the means by which it had been taken from him." Naturally, he was alarmed and told his family that, "kneeled down and asked the Lord why the Record had been taken from him; upon which the angel of the Lord appeared to him, and told him that he had not done as he had been commanded, for in a former revelation he had been commanded not to lay the plates down, or put them for a moment out of his hands, until he got into the house and deposited them in a chest or trunk, having a good lock and key, and, contrary to this, he had laid them down with the view of securing some fancied or imaginary treasure that remained."

Once again, we find Joseph expressing concern about other people finding out about and seeing the plates, to the point of telling his family about the need for a lockable chest or trunk to secure the plates so as to keep them not only from being stolen, but presumably from view. And, the fact that no one besides Joseph were, up to this point and for several years after, permitted to visit the location of the plates and to view them, suggest the intent to keep the plates out of sight from everyone but Joseph.

Regarding this last occurance, Joseph's mother Lucy recalls, "As he was aware that we would expect him to bring the plates home with him, he was greatly troubled, fearing that we might doubt his having seen them. As soon as he entered the house, my husband asked if he had obtained the plates. The answer was, 'No, father, I could not get them.' His father then said, 'Did you see them?' 'Yes,' replied Joseph, 'I saw them, but could not take them.' 'I would have taken them,' rejoined his father, with much earnestness, 'if I had been in your place.' 'Why,' returned Joseph, in quite a subdued tone, 'you do not know what you say. I could not get them, for the angel of the Lord would not let me.' Joseph then related the circumstance in full, which gave us much uneasiness, as we were afraid that he might utterly fail of obtaining the Record through some neglect on his part. We, therefore, doubled our diligence in prayer and supplication to God."

Clearly, two years prior to the event in question, Joseph understood the skepticism of even his own family regarding his claims about the plates.

According to historical record, in September of 1826 Joseph also visited the locaton of the buried plates, but no specific account of the visit is given.

However, in the winter of 1827, not long after Joseph had returned from Pennsylvania with his new bride, and being often employed in nearby Manchester, Lucy tells us about a circumstance where Joseph, " set off early in the day we expected him home at most by six o'clock in the evening, but when six o'clock came he did not arrive. We always had a peculiar anxiety about him whenever he was absent, for it seemed as though something was always taking place to jeopardize his life. But to return. He did not get home till the night was far spent. On coming in he threw himself into a chair, apparently much exhausted. My husband did not observe his appearance and immediately exclaimed, 'Joseph, why are you so late? has anything happened to you? we have been much distressed about you these three hours.' As Joseph made no answer he continued his interrogations, until, finally, I said, 'Now, father, let him rest a moment--don't trouble him now--you see he is home safe and he is very tired, so pray wait a little'....Presently he smiled and said in a calm tone, 'I have taken the severest chastisement that I have ever had in my life'....'it was the angel of the Lord. As I passed by the hill of Cumorah, where the plates are, the angel met me and said that I had not been engaged enough in the work of the Lord; that the time had come for the record to be brought forth; and that I must be up and doing and set myself about the things which God had commanded me to do. But, father, give yourself no uneasiness concerning the reprimand which I have received, for I now know the course that I am to pursue, so all will be well.' It was also made known to him at this interview that he should make another effort to obtain the plates, on the twenty-second of the following September, but this he did not mention to us at that time."

Apparently, months before the event in question Joseph's life already seemed to be in jeopardy.

With this context in mind, in my next post I will put your surmizings in narrative form along with your hypothesized motives. It should prove interesting.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ERayR]

This is the great kind of story that helps believers build up a larger-than-life, hero mythology, while simultaneously giving skeptics a good chuckle.

Have your fun now then for he who laughs last, laughs best. I dont't think the last laugh has been heard yet.

[wenglund]

With the historical context now in place, I will now put Tchild2's surmising and hypothesis into narrative form along with other historical data occurring at the time of the event in question (using LMS's and Joseph Knight's accounts) to see if it all makes sense.

Even though for several years Joseph had expressed concern to his family about people finding out about and seeing the plates, and steps had long been taken to prevent that from happening, and thus far no one beside Joseph had seen the plates, then according to Tchild2, Joseph still had need to "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view because they were so valuable and sought after by evil men".

So, around midnight of the 21st of September 1827, Joseph asked his mother for a chest with a lock and key. And, since she didn't have one, and was anxious as a result thereof (why she was anxious if Joseph hadn't yet "prepped" her enough, is anyone's guess--perhaps Tchild2 could explain), Joseph attempted to calm her by saying: "Never mind, I can do very well for the present without it--be calm--all is right."

Joseph then, along with his wife, Emma, took Mr. Knight's (who along with Mr. Stowell were staying at the Smith's) horse and buggy and rode off into the night. (This seems more than a bit extreme an action merely to "prep others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view", particularly given that Emma was involved. Why would Joseph spend all night supposedly retrieving a "prop" from the nearby hill, and putting it in another secret location, and involve his wife in the elaborate process, merely for the purpose of "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view"? Maybe Tchild2 could explain.)

Joseph returned the following morning, and upon noticing the distress of his mother, commented: "Do not be uneasy, mother, all is right--see here, I have got a key." His mother took the article, examined it, and gave it back to Joseph. (Tchild2 will have to explain what he believes the "key" was and how Joseph ended up with it, and how the "key" fits into the alleged plot to "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view")

The suggestion was then made that Joseph have a cabinetmaker fashion a chest with a lock to hold the Record. But, given the destitute condition that the family had been in for some time, Joseph couldn't imagine how he or his family could pay for the chest. (Which raises the question of how Joseph could afford to somehow obtain, as Tchild2 surmised, the alleged "prop" that "had the shape, feel, dimensions and weight that was reported by many", let alone the "key"? Perhaps Tchild2 can answer this question and fill us in on where and when and how the "prop" was obtained).

Anyway, to pay the cabinetmaker, the following day Joseph began working on a well in Macedon, which was about 4 to 5 miles west of Palmyra. Presumably he traveled there by foot (he was given a horse by the owner of the well to return home from Macedon the following day).

During Joseph's absence, word somehow spread (presumably by way of one of the Smith friends) around the neighborhood that Joseph had obtained the plates. And, people began coming to the Smith's inquiring about the plates, and a group of 10 men, who the night before had sent for a "conjurer", were overheard by father Smith "devising plans to find 'Joe Smith's gold Bible.'"

(One wonders how this could be happening if Joseph's story was, according to Tchild2, a fabrication to "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view." Clearly, there were people at the time intent on obtaining the plates. So, what need would there be for Joseph to supposedly fabricate their existence and fabricate his have come across them? Perhaps Tchild2 could explain this as well.)

The overheard plot caused considerable excitement among the Smith (why that would be if Joseph had yet to "prep" them, is anyone's guess), and Emma was sent by horse to Macedon to warn Joseph. The two returned to the Smith home, and after taking refreshment, Joseph started for the plates.

Upon retrieving the plates and returning home, then according to Tchild2, Joseph told an invented story about wrapping the 40 to 60 pound plates in a frock, running home, and being attack at different times by two or three men along the way. And, to make the story all the more believable, Joseph supposedly feigned exhaustion and fright and intentionally dislocated his thumb, which he had to solicit his father's help to put back into place. He also let his father and Mr. Knight and Stowell head out in pursuit of the alleged non-existent men.

(It may be of interest to note that the group of 10 men plotting to get the plates, were gathered at the home of Willard Chase, which was about 2 miles from the Smith residence, and perhaps in-between the Smith residence and where Joseph hid the plates--about 3 miles from his home. If so, is it unreasonable to assume that the 10 men might have been out looking for Joseph and the plates, and that Joseph may have encountered several of them on his return home with the plates? Or would it make more sense that, even though the men were looking for the plates, Joseph made up the story of being attacked by three men so as to finally "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view"?)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tchild2]

Even though for several years Joseph had expressed concern to his family about people finding out about and seeing the plates, and steps had long been taken to prevent that from happening, and thus far no one beside Joseph had seen the plates, then according to Tchild2, Joseph still had need to "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view because they were so valuable and sought after by evil men".

Perhaps Joseph Smith never intended his plates story to go beyond the "story" stage. That is why there were so many vague conditions in place by the guardian of the plates. It was all prepping as to why others could not see the plates, despite them being buried close by. Kind of like when using his seer stone to locate treasures, they went "slippery". Do treasures really go slippery and disappear when you get to close to them? Ultimately, a prop seemed possible, if not more useful to his claims.

Joseph then, along with his wife, Emma, took Mr. Knight's (who along with Mr. Stowell were staying at the Smith's) horse and buggy and rode off into the night. (This seems more than a bit extreme an action merely to "prep others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view", particularly given that Emma was involved. Why would Joseph spend all night supposedly retrieving a "prop" from the nearby hill, and putting it in another secret location, and involve his wife in the elaborate process, merely for the purpose of "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view"? Maybe Tchild2 could explain.)

Joseph claimed the plates were buried at the hill Cumorah. Should he bring out his fabricated set from a location different from where he claimed them? If you are going through the motions of retreiving plates that exist no more than in story form, where do you go to create the illusion of retrieving plates? As I said earlier, the fabricated plates may not have been at the hill, but Joseph absolutely had to make the pilmagrage to the hill Cumorah, no matter where he had stashed the plates. Wasn't it convenient that Emma was praying and did not see Joseph actually retrieve the plates, and that only later would those plates, unseen by any others, be retrieved by Joseph alone?

Joseph returned the following morning, and upon noticing the distress of his mother, commented: "Do not be uneasy, mother, all is right--see here, I have got a key." His mother took the article, examined it, and gave it back to Joseph. (Tchild2 will have to explain what he believes the "key" was and how Joseph ended up with it, and how the "key" fits into the alleged plot to "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view")

Prepping. Is having a key somehow difficult to obtain?

The suggestion was then made that Joseph have a cabinetmaker fashion a chest with a lock to hold the Record. But, given the destitute condition that the family had been in for some time, Joseph couldn't imagine how he or his family could pay for the chest. (Which raises the question of how Joseph could afford to somehow obtain, as Tchild2 surmised, the alleged "prop" that "had the shape, feel, dimensions and weight that was reported by many", let alone the "key"? Perhaps Tchild2 can answer this question and fill us in on where and when and how the "prop" was obtained).

Sure, once the fabricated plates were extant, there had to be a very secure location for them. Discovery of them would be ruinous. Very clever, as Joseph needed to safeguard a fake set as vigilantly as he would need to safeguard an authentic set. Would he not?

Anyway, to pay the cabinetmaker, the following day Joseph began working on a well in Macedon, which was about 4 to 5 miles west of Palmyra. Presumably he traveled there by foot (he was given a horse by the owner of the well to return home from Macedon the following day).

Perhaps a small investment for a larger one? If anything, Joseph took pains to safeguard whatever he wanted to be kept safe.

During Joseph's absence, word somehow spread (presumably by way of one of the Smith friends) around the neighborhood that Joseph had obtained the plates. And, people began coming to the Smith's inquiring about the plates, and a group of 10 men, who the night before had sent for a "conjurer", were overheard by father Smith "devising plans to find 'Joe Smith's gold Bible.'"

(One wonders how this could be happening if Joseph's story was, according to Tchild2, a fabrication to "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view." Clearly, there were people at the time intent on obtaining the plates. So, what need would there be for Joseph to supposedly fabricate their existence and fabricate his have come across them? Perhaps Tchild2 could explain this as well.)

Like I stated Wade, it is possible that others were interested in the plates for their perceived economic value, and Joseph felt threatened by that excitement as I have shown on my very last post. His story may have been close or merely a scaled back version he used as a template. Surely Joseph wouldn't have wanted his prop stolen and the truth be known, would he?

The overheard plot caused considerable excitement among the Smith (why that would be if Joseph had yet to "prep" them, is anyone's guess), and Emma was sent by horse to Macedon to warn Joseph. The two returned to the Smith home, and after taking refreshment, Joseph started for the plates.

Upon retrieving the plates and returning home, then according to Tchild2, Joseph told an invented story about wrapping the 40 to 60 pound plates in a frock, running home, and being attack at different times by two or three men along the way. And, to make the story all the more believable, Joseph supposedly feigned exhaustion and fright and intentionally dislocated his thumb, which he had to solicit his father's help to put back into place. He also let his father and Mr. Knight and Stowell head out in pursuit of the alleged non-existent men.

Who were these three unknown individuals? They appeared out of nowhere and never showed their face again in such a tight knit community? The story was of gold plates. Such a story would and did garner interest. I put the possibility of Joseph actually being attacked infinitely more likely than of him actually having ancient gold plates, so whether he was attacked or not is mostly immaterial. I just happen to think he used something menacing (whether real or imagined) to bolster his claims and to create the impression that "evil men" were transpiring to steal the plates.

(It may be of interest to note that the group of 10 men plotting to get the plates, were gathered at the home of Willard Chase, which was about 2 miles from the Smith residence, and perhaps in-between the Smith residence and where Joseph hid the plates--about 3 miles from his home. If so, is it unreasonable to assume that the 10 men might have been out looking for Joseph and the plates, and that Joseph may have encountered several of them on his return home with the plates? Or would it make more sense that, even though the men were looking for the plates, Joseph made up the story of being attacked by three men so as to finally "prepping others as to why the plates would be withheld from their view".

Creating a false buzz of having precious and valuable gold plates would attract attention, and might bring potential assailants. Once the story was out, Joseph had to protect the story and/or the props he created. Others didn't know his story was false, so they may have pursued him for those claimed plates. Like I said, whether he was attacked or not is not that material, and doesn't alter the fact that his "story" was so convincing to others of him having real gold plates of value.

I just happen to think that it was probably a "story" like the plates, but ultimately it doesn't matter all that much. Such a far-fetched story does fit better with someone who hadn't thought about the physical realities of fighting off (remember, Joseph was instructed to never lay the plates down on his return trip...as he claimed anyway), assailants without putting the plates down and outrunning not one, but three persons. It also fits better if Joseph was actually carrying a fabricated set with him on that walk through the woods, but didn't actually fight off assailants, because if he had, he would have realized how nearly impossible it is to fight off and outrun grown men with a huge weight held under the arm or in the hands.

Edited, I went to the gym today and grabbed a slew of dumbells from the 40-60 range. At 40 lbs, I could manage a few movements and realized I could probably run if the weight were pressed against my body snuggly. 45 lbs and up was more difficult. I grabbed the 60 lb dumbell and realized every word I have written makes perfect sense. I don't care if you come from the planet Krypton, 60 lbs held out in front of the body in one hand, makes all rapid running movements virtually impossible. Strength has nothing to do with it. That much weight creates an imbalance of body symmetry and center of balance that makes running an impossibility.

[krose]

You are far beyond mere skeptic.

And what is that, Brother Lehi, since you know me so well?

[ERayR]

Perhaps Joseph Smith never intended his plates story to go beyond the "story" stage.

You have so many perhaps'. Perhaps your not a real poster. Perhaps your a bad dream. Perhaps the moon really is made of green cheese. Perhaps are sometimes fun but it would be nice for some responses with some real substance.

[krose]

Have your fun now then for he who laughs last, laughs best. I dont't think the last laugh has been heard yet.

Ah, I just love Judgement Day threats. They're my favorite.

[Tchild2]

You have so many perhaps'. Perhaps your not a real poster. Perhaps your a bad dream. Perhaps the moon really is made of green cheese. Perhaps are sometimes fun but it would be nice for some responses with some real substance.

Perhaps ERay. When exploring motives all we have are the "perhaps". Ultimately a "perhaps" grounded in a possibility in this world, is infinitely more plausible than a "perhaps" grounded in the supernatural?

[LeSellers]

Joseph claimed the plates were buried at the hill Cumorah.

No, Joseph never "claimed the plates were buried at the hill Cumorah."

The name didn't attach to that particular hill for several years, and it was Oliver Cowdery, not Joseph Smith, who so identified it in the first place.

Not directly on topic, so I'll say only this further: the false and misleading "details" (or "doctrine") we keep seeing (e.g., Joseph said the Hill Cumorah was in New York) often get in the way of the discussion.

Lehi

PS: The scare quotes I used here are proper for this context. LS

[Tchild2]

No, Joseph never "claimed the plates were buried at the hill Cumorah."

The "hill" then? Joseph had the location in mind, so whether it had been officially labeled or not, doesn't seem to materially affect much of anything, unless you can show otherwise. Secondly, how do we suppose that three men were able to lay in wait for Joseph Smith without some sort of beginning coordinate in mind?

Not directly on topic, so I'll say only this further: the false and misleading "details" (or "doctrine") we keep seeing (e.g., Joseph said the Hill Cumorah was in New York) often get in the way of the discussion.

Lehi, I am not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that labeling the "hill", as the hill Cumorah is misleading, or the placing the hill Cumorah in New York as opposed to a Central American locale, is what is misleading?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Hello everyone,

The other day I came upon a replica of the golden plates that was made out of lead, and the weight of them was about 100 pounds or so. Guests were allowed to pick it up, and when I did, i wasn't able to move very fast at all...I found myself inching across the room....and that's with lead plates. Gold plates would have been about 70-80 pounds heavier. I'm just wondering, how would Joseph Smith be able to carry this? I'm a pretty big guy (I played offensive line, and I still weigh about 290 or so), and yet there is no way I would have been able to outrun anyone, like it says Joseph Smith did.

I've heard some LDS apologists argue that the plates had to of not been pure gold, However, this argument overlooks Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were "filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."

I've also heard people say that he must have been empowered by God. There are no claims to my knowledge from anyone of this, from Joseph, or from anyone else who saw them.

This is just fascinating, that someone would spend their time in such a manner. If all the Bible stories are true as many of our detractors point out, then God could make Joseph or anyone else able to carry that load or a thousand like it. PLEASE tell me where and why this activity took place.

[Scottie]

Joseph claimed the plates were buried at the hill Cumorah. Should he bring out his fabricated set from a location different from where he claimed them? If you are going through the motions of retreiving plates that exist no more than in story form, where do you go to create the illusion of retrieving plates? As I said earlier, the fabricated plates may not have been at the hill, but Joseph absolutely had to make the pilmagrage to the hill Cumorah, no matter where he had stashed the plates. Wasn't it convenient that Emma was praying and did not see Joseph actually retrieve the plates, and that only later would those plates, unseen by any others, be retrieved by Joseph alone?

I have to disagree with this portion of your theory.

I find it more than likely that JS could have simply fabricated some plates and claimed that the Angel appeared in the night and requested that he retrieve them immediately. He snuck out of the house undetected, retrieved the plates and returned home without incident.

All of the caution of not showing anyone the plates could have been because the Angel commanded him to do so. No need for an elaborate chase through the woods to hammer this point home. "Because an Angel told me to" seems to be all the convincing people need.