The weight of the golden plates

[Tchild2]

Weren't you going to start that other thread about the 11 witnesses, 8 of which saw, hefted, and handled the leaves, described engravings of ancient origin, etc.

Or do those witnesses not count in this discussion?

Joseph was commanded not to show the plates until the Lord's timeframe. He was obedient to a heavenly messenger. Yet 11 people officially saw them, and others after that.

I wonder if he went to a bigger cooper shop in town...

No, I said it was for another thread. Besides, the witnesses have been discussed to death. Secondly, twice now I have stated that the witnesses are an "evidence" for authenticity, but not without serious flaws -- already mentioned earlier.

I don't believe that the Lord hides plates from anyone. If you can claim God for your rationales, can I too?

[Tchild2]

Do you have any evidence that a cooper would use tin in his shop?

A cooper shop needed metal of some sort to fasten the cylindrical barrels. Tin plated iron was probably much cheaper than tin, and Iron would be both heavy and available. For a prop theory, you need something that is in sheet form that could be easily cut to the size of the plates, but you don't need many. Maybe up to ten sheets. The "sealed portion" may have served as the part of the plates that were in bulk and didn't need to be cut into sheets. Maybe Iron in thick rough sheets.

As I recall, a cooper took iron strips, cut them to length, riveted (or welded, a much more difficult process) them into bands, and then forced them onto the staves. There was no need for tin.

See above. Iron actually works better than tin for the weight. Joseph did need the top pages to be the most convincing, but he didn't need many of them.

[Sevenbak]

Hence a crude set right? How much do you think it would cost to acquire 50-60 lbs of iron covered tin (not pure tin, but tinsmithing), with maybe some lead thrown in for the right weight?

Tin strips maybe to save on costs? How many cut sheets to pass the "rustle" of pages and turn the pages test....4,5,6?

So now you are advocating two sets of fake plates? One to fool his mother and family, and the second realistic set with the engravings on both sides of each plate (4 inches worth of individual plates = how many plates?) with a meticulous and time consuming and costly finish? Did he do that one in his cooper shop too?

[Sevenbak]

No, I said it was for another thread. Besides, the witnesses have been discussed to death. Secondly, twice now I have stated that the witnesses are an "evidence" for authenticity, but not without serious flaws -- already mentioned earlier.

I don't believe that the Lord hides plates from anyone. If you can claim God for your rationales, can I too?

Yeah, that must be why the Ark of the Covenant was kept hidden in the holy of holies that only 1 person a year could have access to. You must be right.... God never sequesters things away from the unbelieving and faithless.

[wenglund]

The story seems contrived mostly because there just happened to be three attackers laying in wait on the day of delivery and the ability of Joseph to elude them.

We know from sources other than Joseph that earlier in the day of the event in question, a group of 10 men had been overheard plotting to get the plates from Joseph. In fact, it was the knowledge of this conspiracy which excited the Smith family enough to send for Joseph in Macedon.

Again, the location of the group meeting was Willard Chase's residence, who lived about 2 miles from the Smith residence, which could have been inbetween where Joseph hid the plates in the woods and the Smith residence.

As such, all the while that Joseph was enroute from Macedon to his home, and then traveling back and forth from his home to the where the plates were hidden in the woods, the 10 conspiring men could have spread out throughout the woods looking for Joseph.

With this in mind, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable that Joseph may have encountered on his way home through the woods 2 or 3 of the 10 conspirators. In short, I don't see the alleged encounters as reasonable justification to consider the story contrived. Rather, given the existence of the 10 conspirators (which we learned about from Joseph's dad), it makes the story in question more plausible than were there no encounters in the woods. The whole reason for Joseph retrieving the plates from the tree was because of the hightened concern that the conspirators might find the hidden plates, and Joseph wanted to prevent that from happening.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tchild2]

We know from sources other than Joseph that earlier in the day of the event in question, a group of 10 men had been overheard plotting to get the plates from Joseph. In fact, it was the knowledge of this conspiracy which excited the Smith family enough to send for Joseph in Macedon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yours is the best summation Wade, and based on the larger context, such a scenario makes sense and would add legitimacy to the events of Sept. 1827

As I stated earlier, the froth of excitement of the claimed plates was evident, so the story may have happened as claimed, or it may have been a scaled back version but embellished to "prep" others. If you believe plates were real, there would be no reason to believe J.S. embellished or lied about the events in question.

However, if you believe it to be a story, and the plates a prop, then Joseph would have been capable of deceit and/or embellishing the stated events for his own purposes. Since we don't have "witnesses" of those days events, except Joseph Smith himself, and we think the plates story perhaps untrue, then we are probably skeptical of any story we hear given by J.S.

[wenglund]

Since we don't have "witnesses" of those days events, except Joseph Smith himself, and we think the plates story perhaps untrue, then we are probably skeptical of any story we hear given by J.S.

Ah, but we do have other witnesses of those days events. We have the first and secondhand accounts of Lucy, Joseph Sr., Mr. Knight, Emma, Willard Chase, Willard's wife, and the "necromancer" that had traveled some 60 miles to meet with the other 9 conspirators the day of the event in question.

When you look beyond just what Joseph is alleged to have said, to the much risher historical context provided by these other individuals, then Joseph's account of what happened in the woods makes a lot more sense that not.

Were I you, I would just leave it at just not being pursuaded by the evidence that the Book of Mormon is an authentic scriptural history. The more you attempt to naturalistically explain away the rich historical context, the less credible you become. To each your own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-