The weight of the golden plates

[LeSellers]

Ok. So, when apologists appeal to the plates being likely composed of tumbaga (which is a pretty reasoned and logical explanation) as the probable source metal and composition of the plates due to what is known of Mesoamerican metallurgy, but when we do the same for the rings holding the plates, we are not held to the same standard of "consensus"?

Because there is no reason to assume that the rings were mesoamerican, nor even that they were metal.

Moroni traveled through the whole of now USmerica on his way from Central America to Upstate New York. Anyone he met along the way could have supplied the rings.

The rings could have been wood.

The rings could have been very thick, even if tumbaga (which I do not believe), but thicker metal is stronger than thinner metal.

The options are more varied than you present.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

And likely the sleeves and ends were knotted together so that it wouldn't fall open in the wind. This would provide a handle when needed.

Or a strap that allowed him to sling the plates over his shoulder and under one arm (for stability).

Too rigorous a reading of the text may make us less likely to see what happened. Mother Smith's words are vague on many points. There is a lot of room for interpretation, and there is no specific detail that we can use to eliminate a host of possibilities.

Lehi

[Sevenbak]

Because there is no reason to assume that the rings were mesoamerican, nor even that they were metal.

Moroni traveled through the whole of now USmerica on his way from Cetnral America to Upstae New York. Anyone he met along the way could have supplied the rings.

The rings could have been wood.

The rings could have been very thick, even if tumbaga (which I do not believe), but thicker metal is stronger than thinner metal.

The options are more varied than you present.

Lehi

I would have to disagree. This was Mormon's life's work. Moroni only added some at the end. The rings would likely have been patterned after the other numerous volumes of plates and records handed down over a thousand years and abridged by Mormon. Moroni also said he was out of ore, so he wouldn't add. I think it was a completed "book" with perhaps a few blank sheets at the end.

Plus, the rings make the work organized, easier to carry together, and protect the thin plates by keeping them in one mass. Mormon would have thought that through.

[Sevenbak]

Brad,

Chances are very good that the replica you saw was not archeologically correct at all but some artist's rendition, probably by an artist who had never seen a real set of gold plates.

This is what a real set of gold plates looks like:

This set is on display in the Seoul National Museum in Seoul Korea. I have seen them myself. As you can see, the plates are not perfectly flat, and folded up there are gaps between the pages. They were made by hammering the gold into thin sheets of foil, you can still see the hammer marks, and this example of gold plates is very similar in description to Emma Smith's description of feeling the plates through the cloth when she indicated they were thick like very heavy paper and made crinking sounds as she pressed on them.

If we want to understand what the Book of Mormon Gold plates were like then we need to look at real archeological examples of similar plates and not the replications made by someone who quite frankly probably knows very little about what they are replicating - and that includes artistic renditions and replications made by both critics and believers. When we look at real gold plates and see how they lay and stack its easy to see that the plates no not form a solid mass and the plates were not heavy castings as is depicted in so many paintings, replicas, and other art work, both of LDS origin and critical origin. As you can clearly see, on the plates picture above, any weight estimate that assumes a basically solid chunk of gold will be way off and that by volume at least half the volume is air as the sheets simply do not lay flat.

Until critics begin to be realistic about what the gold plates may have looked like by using real archeological examples for reference then polemics revolving around their weight and Joseph's ability to carry them are pure silliness.

I have those Korean Plates among other images of metal plates throughout the world I've been collecting. Here's a few more.

[charity's child]

That's funny. Thank you for the laugh.

Was Smith being chased by a gang of 80 year old men?

personally, I suspect he was being chased by ne'er-do-wells, the type who spend as much time loafing as they are allowed. So someone who drinks heavily, probably smokes heavily as well, spends more time sitting around and "jawing" than engaging in physical past-times will not be as fit as someone who drinks sparingly at best, probably doesn't smoke as much (considering how appalled Emma was in later times at the smoking habits of Joseph's friends), spent at least some of his free time in wrestling and other physical pursuits, as well as most of his non-free time in hard labor.

Add to that the idea that each assailant is in some way disabled (I know if I'd been hit with a sixty-pound weight it would take me a while to get up again). I don't think it's that difficult to believe Joseph could have outrun them far enough to lose them in a forest in the middle of the night.

[Olavarria]

Im gueesing that the G.plates were made of something like tumbaga or some other alloy. The witnesses said they weighed about 50lbs. The jaredite plates werent in the codex Mooroni buried.

[ebeddoulos]

Right, and U.S. servicemen have military backpacks pushing 80-100 lbs. Remember, it is the load distribution that is crucial, not the overall weight. Did Joseph Smith build a golden plates backpack?

You obviously do not have a clue. Load distribution is important but it is also near impossible given the Army equipment profile. Try to keep your alice pack from bouncing from shoulder to shoulder, with a minimum of two canteens, a map-case and a side-arm flopping at your side, your load bearing equipment encumbered with everything from flashlight to ammo-pouches to first aid kits, to compass, to knife, to commo equipment, to hand grenades, and top that off with an M16 in your hands, all while on forced march. Note that nothing mentioned above goes into your alice pack. That is for food, clothing, sleeping gear, tentage etc.. Mostly etc.. Think unit equipment?.

I've had 17-18 year-old female soldiers, who weighed in at around 115 pounds, who carried 30-pound rucksack, LBE, 2 canteens of water, helmet, and and M-16 rifle with extra ammo. Fully loaded these soldiers were humpin' pretty close to their own weight. The course we were in required a 12 mile march of which a continuos two mile stretch was required to be jogged. 3 hours was the time allotted for completion. To "train-up" for the course, the weights were increased. Air Assault! Hoooo-ahhhh!

If a 115 pound woman can do that, a strapping farm-boy named Joseph Smith could manage his little 40-60 pound load slung over his shoulder in a makeshift pack.

The way you carry on, it is obvious that you do not work for a living. I've ran hospital materiel management operations where my stores and delivery clerks were required to routinely pick up, receive store and isuue supplies and equiment weighing 50 pounds and more.

I Googled "Job requirements 50 lbs" and came up with the following:

Required frequently: standing, walking, kneeling, squatting, bending, reaching, lifting

up to 50 lbs.

Lifting/carrying: Frequently. 1-50 lbs. jars/buckets of glass. Occasionally must lift 1-50 lbs. above

shoulders.

Climbing (Stairs): Carry 50 lbs. buckets up 8 steps to put glass in glass crushing machine.

Lifting 50 lbs. maximum with frequent lifting and/or carrying of objects weighing up to

25 lbs.

Lifting 100 lbs. maximum with frequent lifting and/or carrying of objects weighing up to 50 lbs.

Exert up to 100 lbs. of force occasionally, and/or up to 50 lbs. of force frequently, and/or up to 20 lbs. of force constantly to move objects.

Lift up to 50 lbs / Repetitive lifting required.

Requires moderate to extensive degree of physical stamina and frequent lifting up to 50 lbs. and occasional lifting up to 100 lbs.

Physical efforts including standing, lifting and carrying light to moderately heavy materials or equipment. (15 to 50 lbs).

Lifting Activities: Moderate lifting (20-50 lbs) occasionally

This whole thing is bogus and you and the other anti's of like ilk know it. Either that or the lot of you are nothing but a bunch of out of shape, candy-a** slackers. Remember that 115-lb soldier? She she'd high kick your keester around the block.

[Tchild2]

You obviously do not have a clue. Load distribution is important but it is also near impossible given the Army equipment profile. Try to keep your alice pack from bouncing from shoulder to shoulder, with a minimum of two canteens, a map-case and a side-arm flopping at your side, your load bearing equipment encumbered with everything from flashlight to ammo-pouches to first aid kits, to compass, to knife, to commo equipment, to hand grenades, and top that off with an M16 in your hands, all while on forced march. Note that nothing mentioned above goes into your alice pack. That is for food, clothing, sleeping gear, tentage etc.. Mostly etc.. Think unit equipment?.

But I do have a clue. Someone is not paying attention Ebeddoulos. We have already established that heavy gear approaching 100 lbs is manageable for most people, provide the load is distributed across the body. THE LOAD IS DISTRIBUTED ACROSS THE BODY....THE LOAD IS...never mind.

If a 115 pound woman can do that, a strapping farm-boy named Joseph Smith could manage his little 40-60 pound load slung over his shoulder in a makeshift pack.

Give that 115 woman a dumbell and have her hold it one hand and perform hand to hand combat and see if she can outrun you, then come back and report. Problem is, we don't know that the plates were slung over the shoulder. We know that they were wrapped in a shirt and tucked under his arm "wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home". If we speculate, it is possible that Joseph had constructed a very snug backpack and maybe even some body armor to deflect the blows he was to receive.

The way you carry on, it is obvious that you do not work for a living. I've ran hospital materiel management operations where my stores and delivery clerks were required to routinely pick up, receive store and isuue supplies and equiment weighing 50 pounds and more.

I have schlepped more heavy weights than I care to remember. Construction (air conditioners, and fireplaces) and I worked at UPS unloading trucks. We all know people can lift weights, lift weights up stairs, and from place to place as they walk, but that isn't the point. The point is that the physics of holding a very heavy weight in the hands, or arms impedes the pendulum motion necessary for running beyond a few dozen feet. This point is reinforced to me every time I go to the gym and pick up my 60lb dumbells to lift.

This whole thing is bogus and you and the other anti's of like ilk know it. Either that or the lot of you are nothing but a bunch of out of shape, candy-a** slackers. Remember that 115-lb soldier? She she'd high kick your keester around the block.

No, what is "bogus" is taking at face value a fantastic story without putting it through the BS test. I don't care what army your girly has been in, give her sixty pounds to hold in her hand, or "tucked under her arm" and lets see her outrun me....lets see her run first.

[why me]

The strange thing about this is that Joseph Smith had to run around carrying these plates to hide them from the money diggers or from anyone else who wanted to steal them. Now if I were a critic I would find it quite interesting that JS would be carrying a box of rocks, attempting to hide them from people who thought they were valuable. But I also don't see how critics can rationalize such a story.

If a fraudster, JS must have been cursing his head off as he carried this box of rocks around with him. And if I were him, I would have given up the fraud for risk of a hernia. Now if they were real plates, I can understand his problem. He had to hide these plates from the fortune seekers.

So the question is: he was carrying around something: rocks or plates. What was he carrying around? And of course, John Whitmer described the plates that he touched. When did JS have the time to make plates with letterings on them? I don't think that he did have the time.

[Sevenbak]

A little JS History might be helpful to this discussion.

JSH 1:

59 At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected.

60 I soon found out the reason why I had received such strict charges to keep them safe, and why it was that the messenger had said that when I had done what was required at my hand, he would call for them. For no sooner was it known that I had them, than the most strenuous exertions were used to get them from me. Every stratagem that could be invented was resorted to for that purpose. The persecution became more bitter and severe than before, and multitude were on the alert continually to get them from me if possible. But by the wisdom of God, they remained safe in my hands, until I had accomplished by them what was required at my hand. When, according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight.

[ERayR]

That's funny. Thank you for the laugh.

Was Smith being chased by a gang of 80 year old men?

You only show your ignorance. For your edification (should you choose to accept) a 60 + pound pack is standard along with full uniform about 10 pounds and a 7 to 15 pound rifle plus ammunition for soldiers in the US military. You need to make more friends not everyone is a wuss.

By the way your inference that I was lying is not cool. At 19 I was 6' 1" 195 pounds and could hold 300 pounds and toss 100 pounds 16 to 18 feet. My training program - I was a farm boy that grew up picking rocks, stacking baled hay which often exceeded 100 pounds per bale.

In your ignorance you have only made an *** of yourself.

[MAsh]

But, anyone who has handled a heavy concentrated weight (the plates were 6"W X 8" L X 6" thickness) knows that you cannot put it under one arm and run, carry it and outrun, not one, but three assailants who had the element of surprise, not matter how you remix it, reinterpret it or reimagine the scenario.

Unless, of course, he did. How big were the assailants by the way? How do you know he carried the plates under his arm the entire time? Did you closely watch the video to make sure he never put in on his shoulder or slung it over his back in the frock? Are you absolutely positive he never set it down or dropped it to fight his attackers. Please send me the video clips that makes this apparent.

Either the assailants were wheelchair bound criminals, or Joseph Smith embelllished the story to spice it up.

While you're at it, please send me a link to Joseph Smith's first-hand account of the incident.

Or, perhaps he offered a fabricated story and never really had gold plates, and his story reflects a fertile imagination that never really thought about the ramifications of the physics of running, dodging and fending off assailants with a very heavy and compact weight in his hands?

Anything's possible, right Tchild2? Especially when we need to get rid of those pesky plates-- the plates that were seen and handled by others (but I digress and that's for another thread).

Of course JS, as a country bumpkin, was too stupid to think of the ramifications of concocting a story about gold-appearing plates (that just happen to match what we know about tumbaga), but he was clever enough to include a multitude of wonderful things in the BoM that are only now being recognized by scholars (things which the critics claim he sponged from libraries or the brains of others). Yes, he was a sharp con-man who could weave a comprehensive history laced with verifiable cultural and archaeological facts all encapsulated in a story of profound moral teachings, and all the while working with actual heavy objects in his every day life, but he was too dumb to come up with a better story (or at least fill in the details) because everyone would know that once his mom related the incident we would automatically take infallible-Lucy at her every word. Joseph ran with the plates under his arm for a couple of miles fighting off assailants with a single hand. There's no other way to understand the text unless Joseph or his mother embellished the story or made it up. I'd love to get ahold of anything you've ever written about an event in your life and put this same infallible spin on it.

Mike

[why me]

A little JS History might be helpful to this discussion.

JSH 1:

59 At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected.

60 I soon found out the reason why I had received such strict charges to keep them safe, and why it was that the messenger had said that when I had done what was required at my hand, he would call for them. For no sooner was it known that I had them, than the most strenuous exertions were used to get them from me. Every stratagem that could be invented was resorted to for that purpose. The persecution became more bitter and severe than before, and multitude were on the alert continually to get them from me if possible. But by the wisdom of God, they remained safe in my hands, until I had accomplished by them what was required at my hand. When, according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight.

But to hear the critics, it was all a fraud. So, JS was hiding a box of rocks---hiding them from place to place. And this box was not light. Can you imagine hiding a box of rocks from people trying to steal what they thought was something valuable for a fraud that at that time was far from being a success.

Now of course, if it wasn't a fraud we can understand his problem. But if it were a fraud, he had to be pretty dumb with that box of rocks.

[Sevenbak]

Are you absolutely positive he never set it down or dropped it to fight his attackers...

Mike

Mike, I agree with your post, except the above little sentence. If there is one thing Joseph didn't do, that was to set them down and fight. When he first went to the hill 4 years prior, he set them down while he looked at the other artifacts in the box, in which the plates disappeared and Moroni said he wasn't ready.

He had 4 long years to ponder upon 'setting them down' to do something else. I don't think he ever made that mistake again.

Cheers.

[Sevenbak]

But to hear the critics, it was all a fraud. So, JS was hiding a box of rocks---hiding them from place to place. And this box was not light. Can you imagine hiding a box of rocks from people trying to steal what they thought was something valuable for a fraud that at that time was far from being a success.

Now of course, if it wasn't a fraud we can understand his problem. But if it were a fraud, he had to be pretty dumb with that box of rocks.

Agreed. The modern critics sure like to say none of it happened.

The original critics believed it so much, they repeatedly tried to steal them.

[Tchild2]

The strange thing about this is that Joseph Smith had to run around carrying these plates to hide them from the money diggers or from anyone else who wanted to steal them. Now if I were a critic I would find it quite interesting that JS would be carrying a box of rocks, attempting to hide them from people who thought they were valuable. But I also don't see how critics can rationalize such a story.

As I see it, there are four possibilities.

1) J.S. had authentic golden plates (GP) and the story of running and eluding assailants was basically true.

2) J.S. had authentic GP and the story was either embellished by Joseph or not remembered with true details by Lucy Mack Smith.

3) J.S. was attacked walking home (maybe he had fabricated plates or rocks, or maybe not--no plates in posession), due to the stories of his having posession of gold plates, or perhaps, felt threatened walking with fabricated plates / rocks and the story was a bit embellished.

4) J.S. was not attacked, but embellished/fabricated the story in order to "prep" others to his plates story so that they would believe that the plates he wouldn't let them see, were really valuable and that they were sought after.

I personally go with option #4.

Secondly, if I recall my history (if I am mistaken, I welcome corrections), Joseph Smith was not allowed to discuss the plates to others per the instructions of the Angel Moroni, and had to visit with the angel once per year for four years. Thus, when Joseph finally went to retrieve the plates, how would others have known of the plates, and how concidental that three persons would be laying in wait on the very day he J.S retrieved the plates.

If a fraudster, JS must have been cursing his head off as he carried this box of rocks around with him. And if I were him, I would have given up the fraud for risk of a hernia. Now if they were real plates, I can understand his problem. He had to hide these plates from the fortune seekers.

It is possible that the assailants never existed but were part of the "story" to create the impression for others that he, J.S., really had something of value.

So the question is: he was carrying around something: rocks or plates. What was he carrying around? And of course, John Whitmer described the plates that he touched. When did JS have the time to make plates with letterings on them? I don't think that he did have the time.

From the reports I have read, the majority of contact with the plates was with them covered, and the person was able to heft them. There are a few reports of touching or viewing the plates partially revealed, but they are the minority. But that is for a different thread.

[Sevenbak]

From the reports I have read, the majority of contact with the plates was with them covered, and the person was able to heft them. There are a few reports of touching or viewing the plates partially revealed, but they are the minority. But that is for a different thread.

You are incorrect. All 11 witnesses saw or handled the plates uncovered. The eight turned the pages, saw the engravings, etc.

There were others who felt them underneath cloth, but it was the 11 who saw them officially sanctioned, and commanded to do so.

I suspect you know this, it's published right after the title page of the Book of Mormon.

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

[Tchild2]

Unless, of course, he did. How big were the assailants by the way? How do you know he carried the plates under his arm the entire time? Did you closely watch the video to make sure he never put in on his shoulder or slung it over his back in the frock? Are you absolutely positive he never set it down or dropped it to fight his attackers. Please send me the video clips that makes this apparent.

Sure thing Mike, right after you get me the video clip of the various first vision accounts, a page of the gold plates and more video of resurrected beings visiting to impart some nebulous priesthood powers.

If what Lucy Mack Smith remembered was fundamentally wrong, then there isn't much to discuss. We are discussing the mechanics of running, eluding, jumping and avoiding assailants if the story was basically remembered correctly as we read.

Anything's possible, right Tchild2? Especially when we need to get rid of those pesky plates-- the plates that were seen and handled by others (but I digress and that's for another thread).

If there is anything more fantastic than angels delivering ancient gold plates Mike? please fill me in. If you can't expect to have a healthy dose of skepticism leveled against what you can claim, but cannot prove, then pick another religion or get thicker skin.

Of course JS, as a country bumpkin, was too stupid to think of the ramifications of concocting a story about gold-appearing plates (that just happen to match what we know about tumbaga), but he was clever enough to include a multitude of wonderful things in the BoM that are only now being recognized by scholars (things which the critics claim he sponged from libraries or the brains of others). Yes, he was a sharp con-man who could weave a comprehensive history laced with verifiable cultural and archaeological facts all encapsulated in a story of profound moral teachings, and all the while working with actual heavy objects in his every day life, but he was too dumb to come up with a better story (or at least fill in the details) because everyone would know that once his mom related the incident we would automatically take infallible-Lucy at her every word. Joseph ran with the plates under his arm for a couple of miles fighting off assailants with a single hand. There's no other way to understand the text unless Joseph or his mother embellished the story or made it up..

There are really only two variables. Did Joseph Smith have a way to distribute the load? The text doesn't say so. Did Joseph Smith really outrun three assailants that had the element of surprise while carrying a 50-60lb load? Without the first, it would be impossible to perform the second.

Sure, if the related story is fundamentally different than remembered or reported by LMS, then we are dealing with variables that materially alter the various possibilities.

I'd love to get ahold of anything you've ever written about an event in your life and put this same infallible spin on it.

Which, if I claimed something supernatural and fantastic, you and the rest of the world most definitely would.

[Tchild2]

You are incorrect. All 11 witnesses saw or handled the plates uncovered. The eight turned the pages, saw the engravings, etc.

There were others who felt them underneath cloth, but it was the 11 who saw them officially sanctioned, and commanded to do so.

Maybe better to explore the witnesses in another thread.

[Sevenbak]

Maybe better to explore the witnesses in another thread.

I'm sure you will. Please do.

Next time, clarify "contact with the plates" to mean the few who didn't say they say them or felt them. That might help us understand your, dare I say, thinking...

[krose]

... personally, I suspect he was being chased by ne'er-do-wells...

That's funny. I suspect that's a term that some of the people in the area might have used to refer to young Joseph, because of his treasure-seeking activities and stories of angel visits.

[ERayR]

That's funny. I suspect that's a term that some of the people in the area might have used to refer to young Joseph, because of his treasure-seeking activities and stories of angel visits.

It was most likely some of his associates from those days that thought they should have a share of what he had found.

[LeSellers]

Ok. So, when apologists appeal to the plates being likely composed of tumbaga (which is a pretty reasoned and logical explanation) as the probable source metal and composition of the plates due to what is known of Mesoamerican metallurgy, but when we do the same for the rings holding the plates, we are not held to the same standard of "consensus"?

Because there is no reason to assume that the rings were mesoamerican, nor even that they were metal.

Moroni traveled through the whole of now USmerica on his way from Central America to Upstate New York. Anyone he met along the way could have supplied the rings.

The rings could have been wood.

The rings could have been very thick, even if tumbaga (which I do not believe), but thicker metal is stronger than thinner metal.

The options are more varied than you present.

I would have to disagree. This was Mormon's life's work. Moroni only added some at the end. The rings would likely have been patterned after the other numerous volumes of plates and records handed down over a thousand years and abridged by Mormon. Moroni also said he was out of ore, so he wouldn't add. I think it was a completed "book" with perhaps a few blank sheets at the end.

Plus, the rings make the work organized, easier to carry together, and protect the thin plates by keeping them in one mass. Mormon would have thought that through.

Not necessarily.

I, personally, believe the Book of Mormon, through Mormon 7, was complete and bound. However, it is wrong to see that Moroni only added to his father's essentially completed book. He, himself, complained that he had no plates to write on, and that he didn't even have any ore to make new ones. Then, two pages later, we have him editing and translating the book of Ether, on what must have been new plates, plates he'd made, and then adding his "Church Handbook of Instructions" (Chapters 2~6) and closing thoughts in the book of Moroni.

Keep in mind, too, that we leave him in 421 ad, but that there is no indication of when he started writing his own book only that he composed chapter 10 just as he was about to hide the book in New York. The heading indicates that it was 20 years after he'd finished Ether. His wanderings over those twenty years would have given him more than enough time to carry the abridgment he and his father had completed anywhere in the Americas. And, he'd have been able to "perfect" the physical book, too, even adding the rings which are nowhere mentioned in the text of the book itself.

This is speculation, to be sure, but then, so is your position.

That said, if we look at the issue of the rings, there is no information about them at all save their rough dimensions (at least 7 inches across the flat side and â?? we have to assume based on that â?? about 5 inches across at the widest point), their shape ("D") and their number (3).

We do not know they were metal at all. We do not know they were iron, tumbaga, silver, gold or bronze; nor that they were not metal, nor wood.

Each of us will take our biases and create an image for the rings.

I choose to believe that they were metal, possibly iron or even steel, and that they would easily have supported the weight of the plates if used as handles for a couple of reasons.

One, it makes carrying them easier, whether we are talking of Joseph or Moroni.

Two, while the prophets were engraving the plates, as you point out, they'd have had to keep them organized, and steady for what must have been tedious and delicate work. A softer metal would not have been adequate for this.

Three, Nephi's steel tools and bow point to a knowledge of metallurgy beyond what we assume was the mesoamerican norm for the art. Steel objects would have been passed down from generation to generation as fine jewelry because it would have been "most precious". Working artifacts, like these binder rings, would have been especially prized.

Lehi

[why me]

And wasn't Emma around at this time. Somehow I remember her helping JS to hid the plates in the home. If so that would be an interesting story. If JS were a fraud, it would be obvious that Emma would be in on it. I remember hearing that she also felt the plates beneath the cloth. I do believe that Emma was too smart to be tricked. She could

read JS like the palm of her hand. And if she had any doubt about him, she would never have followed him after polygamy.

[krose]

As a former farm boy myself, I think many people here are overplaying that angle as a reason to attribute exceptional strength to a person. Sure, I used to be able to carry two bales of hay at once, and throw them up on top of a stack on the truck. But there is no way I could compete in strength with the football players who spent their days in the weight room, and I certainly couldn't run faster than the guys down the road who spent their weekends partying hard.