The weight of the golden plates

[Tchild2]

As a side note, I am pretty confident that the physics of this are nearly impossible with a sixty pound weight in the hands: Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log

Now, this log had to be large enough that a man could hide himself on one side and be unseen and able to surprise J.S. as he was "jumping".

This would make a superb myth busters episode.

[thesometimesaint]

Bytor:

Maybe, but there is no need a man in his twenties is pretty strong, and there is no indication that JS was weak. Quite the contrary he was used to hard farm work, remember no power tools in those days, and consistently won at wrestling contests.

[Tchild2]

Hi Tchild2,

Hmmmm, I always imagined the feet being freed were more important to run effectively.

Sorry!! ( One of those nights on my end of the internet )

Peace,

Ceeboo

Next time you watch olympic sprinters, note how they just let their arms flail around purposelessly.

[thesometimesaint]

Tchild2:

Ever see those huge Scots in the Highland Games competition?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_games#Heavy_Events

[Sevenbak]

As a side note, I am pretty confident that the physics of this are nearly impossible with a sixty pound weight in the hands: Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log

Now, this log had to be large enough that a man could hide himself on one side and be unseen and able to surprise J.S. as he was "jumping".

This would make a superb myth busters episode.

I guess you've never gone elk hunting and had to make multiple trips on foot though the woods to haul large and heavy sections of meat back to a road. Deadfall is a normal part of any forest area. Doing it in a hurry is all too common, as the goal is to not be stuck out there after dark.

next...

[Tchild2]

I guess you've never gone elk hunting and had to make multiple trips on foot though the woods to haul large and heavy sections of meat back to a road. Deadfall is a normal part of any forest area. Doing it in a hurry is all too common, as the goal is to not be stuck out there after dark.

next...

Not a hunter myself, but I used to help my grandad clear trees from his land in McCall Idaho. The point is what we take from the descriptions Joseph Smith provided in has narratives of being chased while carrying the plates.

If J.S. says he "jumped" over a log, I have to wonder how he might have done such a thing with so much weight. You have to remember that the plates were very compact and rather heavy, so holding them wouldn't be the same as any of the other comparisons used. The near best example I believe is a barbell (compact and heavy) The weight could not have been distributed across the body like a slab of meat over the shoulder, or as a mailman with a cross shoulder sack.

Carrying plates and walking could be done, and with haste if needed. Running as fast as you can ("he ran at the top of his speed"), jumping over logs, and fighting off would be thieves with plates in hand, and somehow outrunning the alleged would be thieves is rather remarkable (if not almost impossible) given the nature and physics of the plates and how they must have been carried.

[Sevenbak]

Not a hunter myself, but I used to help my grandad clear trees from his land in McCall Idaho. The point is what we take from the descriptions Joseph Smith provided in has narratives of being chased while carrying the plates.

If J.S. says he "jumped" over a log, I have to wonder how he might have done such a thing with so much weight. You have to remember that the plates were very compact and rather heavy, so holding them wouldn't be the same as any of the other comparisons used. The near best example I believe is a barbell (compact and heavy) The weight could not have been distributed across the body like a slab of meat over the shoulder, or as a mailman with a cross shoulder sack.

Carrying plates and walking could be done, and with haste if needed. Running as fast as you can ("he ran at the top of his speed"), jumping over logs, and fighting off would be thieves with plates in hand, and somehow outrunning the alleged would be thieves is rather remarkable (if not almost impossible) given the nature and physics of the plates and how they must have been carried.

He fought off the thieves one at a time. There were never multiple persons, they were spread out along the 3 mile route. He also hurt himself badly, but not as bad as the attackers were injured. He had the plates in wrapped in his shirt. Though the history doesn't say it, were it me, there would be a gold plate indentation in the side of the skull of his attackers.... yes, I surmise he swung the plates using the shirt as leverage, though that can't be proven.

Besides, as has already been pointed out, he was in great shape, a farmer and frontier woodsman. Today's standards of us weakened wimps just doesn't apply.

[Tchild2]

He fought off the thieves one at a time. There were never multiple persons, they were spread out along the 3 mile route. He also hurt himself badly, but not as bad as the attackers were injured. He had the plates in wrapped in his shirt. Though the history doesn't say it, were it me, there would be a gold plate indentation in the side of the skull of his attackers.... yes, I surmise he swung the plates using the shirt as leverage, though that can't be proven.

Besides, as has already been pointed out, he was in great shape, a farmer and frontier woodsman. Today's standards of us weakened wimps just doesn't apply.

It doesn't matter Joseph Smith's strength. Running is accomplished by using the arms, legs and body as a pendulum, and having a sixty pound weight in one or both hands impedes that process. You only need to take me up on my experiment. grab a 40-60 lb dumbell in one or both hand(s) and try to run. I do shoulder shrugs with 60 lb dumbells. I could probably do more shrugs if my fingers and hands didn't get too sore after and painful to continue holding the dumbells after about 45 seconds. I wonder how Joseph Smith might have held plates by the rings for more than a few minutes?

Please note, I will not pay medical bills for herniated discs, pulled muscles or distended ligaments.

[LeSellers]

Is that a serious CFR? I have never heard mention of a handle, but I have of a box? Do you have a CFR of a box with a handle?

Your hypothetical box did not have a handle. So, what is your basis for imagining a box of any sort?

Now we have a good argument. If the rings would support the weight of plates, even under the increased stresses created by running, then grasping the plates by the rings and running might actually work. However, since tumbaga is made of soft metals, the rings could potentially be rather malleable.

At least there is this concession. Since the rings were exposed (through the linen), using them as handles only makes sense.

Do you have any information on the material of the rings? I have never seen anything of the sort. The plates get described frequently, but the rings, aside from their number and shape, nothing.

Even the cheapest three-ring binder has rings of sturdier material than the paper it will be holding. I have no doubt that Mormon's rings were of something hardier than tumbaga.

As for the "evidence" of running with the plates.

The plates were secreted about three miles from home...Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home. After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping^a over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed^b. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again^c; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came^d within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house.

History of Joseph Smith by His Mother

I've read Mother Smith many times. She does not claim that Joseph ran the whole way, only that he ran immediately after overcoming the assailants. You may infer anything you like, of course, but aside from short sprints away from the scenes of the assaults, the only running I see is something more like a series of jogs.

1. Here we see Joseph "jumping" over a "large windfall" (tree downed by the wind). However, "jumping" does not necessarily require that we read "hurdling". "Vaulting" is sufficient. It is easy to see him vaulting over the log using the plates as a hand support. The attacker could easily have been, not behind the log per se, but behind the stump, a less difficult feat, and one that allowed him to squat and maneuver around it as Joseph approached.
   
2. He "ran at the top of his speed" neither requires nor implies that he sprinted all the way to the next ambuscade, only that he took off fast. This is what anyone I know would have done having just been struck by a gun.
   
3. Again, it is not necessary to imagine the young man running a long distance at top speed. However, he likely did jog a good part of the way. I would have, knowing that ill-intentioned men were anxious to waylay me.
   
4. No mention of "running" here. Still, it is far from unlikely that Joseph moved as rapidly as his strength would permit. A nice, steady jog would do it, and account for his being out of breath by the time he reached the yard.
   

Mother Smith's account of the second time Joseph moved the plates does not make your case. Joseph did not run three miles carrying a 60-pound burden. He "ran, dodged, and jumped", but he did not sprint. He was unusually strong even for his day (see numerous accounts of his wrestling, "pulling sticks", and other physical activities). There is no doubt he could have done what the record claims he did.

I believe he did just that.

Lehi

[Sevenbak]

It doesn't matter Joseph Smith's strength. Running is accomplished by using the arms, legs and body as a pendulum, and having a sixty pound weight in one or both hands impedes that process. You only need to take me up on my experiment. grab a 40-60 lb dumbell in one or both hand(s) and try to run.

Please note, I will not pay medical bills for herniated discs, pulled muscles or distended ligaments.

Meh. I've run with heavier loads than 60 lbs. I know why Joseph was tired, but I also know it can be done. Also, you also leave out all other variables. Where were these attackers from? Joseph said he got off the road. Do you think he knew the area around his farm better than these robbers? It was dark, that played to his advantage. They were separate, that also played to his advantage. Most importantly, he was on God's errand. That definitely played to his advantage.

[Fly Fisherman]

I did for twelve years before I went into management. I was one who ran my nine mile route on a daily basis with an average of a 35 lb satchel and since I had 942 deliveries on my route that same satchel weighed approximately 55 lbs every Tuesday.

Same here. I did two summers of mail carrying before I was married when I was in my early twenties. I was a "temp" mail carrier - and as such I was only paid a fraction of what the full-time mail carriers were then. Thus, they loaded me up with the worst of the mail routes, and I got shafted with extra streets to carry. With my low wage, it saved them money. I delivered in the avenues in SLC, where there might be 20 or 30 steps to each mailbox. Being loaded up to 50 pounds on Tuesday was not uncommon. Since they gave me extra streets to deliver, sometimes I literally had to run or jog from house to house to complete the deliveries on time.

I was a scrawny, skinny, 140 pound boy then. If I could handle 50 pounds all day, I am absolutely certain that Joseph Smith, who would be much stronger and more fit than me, could handle carrying up to 60 pounds in plates.

This is one of the most ridiculous anti-Mormon arguments.

[Tchild2]

At least there is this concession. Since the rings were exposed (through the linen), using them as handles only makes sense.

Do you have any information on the material of the rings? I have never seen anything of the sort. The plates get described frequently, but the rings, aside from their number and shape, nothing.

Even the cheapest three-ring binder has rings of sturdier material than the paper it will be holding. I have no doubt that Mormon's rings were of something hardier than tumbaga.

Now I think you are making unwarranted assumptions. Based on Mesoamerican metallurgy prior to 600 A.D. most metalwork was hammering native copper and gold. What do you think the rings might have been made of based on what mesoamerican researchers know about metal work at that time?

I've read Mother Smith many times. She does not claim that Joseph ran the whole way, only that he ran immediately after overcoming the assailants. You may infer anything you like, of course, but aside from short sprints away from the scenes of the assaults, the only running I see is something more like a series of jogs.

1. 
   

"A series of jogs"? Sure, if his assailants were chasing in a wheelchair or with a cane and a severe limp. How do you outrun someone not carrying heavy weights by jogging? How do you jog fast enough to not only elude someone who has surprised you, but also run far enough out of their line of site to be able to slow down and catch your breath? I take it you have never had an older brother chasing you to smack you down? Just jogging gets you caught and smacked down, not free.

Here we see Joseph "jumping" over a "large windfall" (tree downed by the wind). However, "jumping" does not necessarily require that we read "hurdling". "Vaulting" is sufficient. It is easy to see him vaulting over the log using the plates as a hand support. The attacker could easily have been, not behind the log per se, but behind the stump, a less difficult feat, and one that allowed him to squat and maneuver around it as Joseph approached.
He "ran at the top of his speed" neither requires nor implies that he sprinted all the way to the next ambuscade, only that he took off fast. This is what anyone I know would have done having just been struck by a gun.
Again, it is not necessary to imagine the young man running a long distance at top speed. However, he likely did jog a good part of the way. I would have, knowing that ill-intentioned men were anxious to waylay me.
No mention of "running" here. Still, it is far from unlikely that Joseph moved as rapidly as his strength would permit. A nice, steady jog would do it, and account for his being out of breath by the time he reached the yard.

Mother Smith's account of the second time Joseph moved the plates does not make your case. Joseph did not run three miles carrying a 60-pound burden. He "ran, dodged, and jumped", but he did not sprint. He was unusually strong even for his day (see numerous accounts of his wrestling, "pulling sticks", and other physical activities). There is no doubt he could have done what the record claims he did.

Lehi, we go on the account and what was stated. You cannot jump over logs with heavy weights in your hands, you cannot run, or jog for more than a few dozen feet. You cannot hold in your hand and fingers 60lb weights for more than a few minutes.

Based on what we know, the plates were essentially open (wrapped in shirt) and the only way to hold the plates would be by the rings by one or both hands, or with the hands supporting the bulk of the plates with one or both hands. Without a handle, one-hand holding the plates would be virtually impossible for more than a few seconds. This positioning of the concentrated weight in the hands severly impedes running and a near perfect experiment is to grab a dumbell in hand and try to replicate, even remotely the narrative of what Joseph claimed to have done with plates in hand.

[Ceeboo]

The " weight of the golden plates " has never struck me as a big deal at all.

Not that any of my LDS friends need my help in this regard, but something as simple as Adrenaline puts this JS " problem " to bed for me.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Tchild2]

Same here. I did two summers of mail carrying before I was married when I was in my early twenties. I was a "temp" mail carrier - and as such I was only paid a fraction of what the full-time mail carriers were then. Thus, they loaded me up with the worst of the mail routes, and I got shafted with extra streets to carry. With my low wage, it saved them money. I delivered in the avenues in SLC, where there might be 20 or 30 steps to each mailbox. Being loaded up to 50 pounds on Tuesday was not uncommon. Since they gave me extra streets to deliver, sometimes I literally had to run or jog from house to house to complete the deliveries on time.

I was a scrawny, skinny, 140 pound boy then. If I could handle 50 pounds all day, I am absolutely certain that Joseph Smith, who would be much stronger and more fit than me, could handle carrying up to 60 pounds in plates.

This is one of the most ridiculous anti-Mormon arguments.

I will take you up on the your challenge. Lets meet at a gold's gym, and we will outfit you with a 50lb dumbell and see what you can do with it. We will see how you run, how you jump and how you elude me if I start chasing. I will bring the camcorder and a doctor to help with your strains after I catch you 30 feet into your fruitless escape from me. Deal?

Anyone want to take me up on the offer? I live in Orem, and about five minutes from a Gold's gym.

[Sevenbak]

Based on Mesoamerican metallurgy prior to 600 A.D. most metalwork was hammering native copper and gold.

If that was the case, you'd have a big problem explaining these copper Hopewell swords, knives and axes away.

[Sevenbak]

I will take you up on the your challenge. Lets meet at a gold's gym, and we will outfit you with a 50lb dumbell and see what you can do with it. We will see how you run, how you jump and how you elude me if I start chasing. I will bring the camcorder and a doctor to help with your strains after I catch you 30 feet into your fruitless escape from me. Deal?

Anyone want to take me up on the offer? I live in Orem, and about five minutes from a Gold's gym.

Only if you smelt your 50 lb dumbell into the same dimensions as the plates. Those dimensions can be found here, by the variety of witnesses who saw them.

When you've achieved the correct weight, dimensions, and texture, (including rings), I'm game.

Edited to add: Make sure you bring the linen shirt too.

[Tchild2]

Well, looks like we have just such an experiment on Youtube. Haven't yet watched it, so we can all watch it together.

[Ceeboo]

I wanna play too!!!

Maybe we can have about 8 of us meet at the gym and set up some kinda circle for duck duck goose with the " fake plates ".

[Tchild2]

Only if you smelt your 50 lb dumbell into the same dimensions as the plates. Those dimensions can be found here, by the variety of witnesses who saw them.

When you've achieved the correct weight, dimensions, and texture, (including rings), I'm game.

What do believe to be the material difference between the dimensions of the plates and a dumbell that would make the plates easier to handle? The point is that the plates, like the dumbell do not allow transfer of the weight to other parts of the body. That is why comparing the plates to a loaded mail satchel are unequal; the mail satchel has a shoulder strap which transfer the weight across the body more evenly and freeing the arms to allow the pendulum motion of running.

[Garden Girl]

As a side note, I am pretty confident that the physics of this are nearly impossible with a sixty pound weight in the hands: Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log

Now, this log had to be large enough that a man could hide himself on one side and be unseen and able to surprise J.S. as he was "jumping".

This would make a superb myth busters episode.

What's to say Joseph didn't rest the plates on the log as he swung his legs/body over? You act like he was jumping a hurdle holding the plates. If it were me and I was running with something heavy like the plates and came upon a log, as I approached said log I'd put the plates on the log and swing myself over, lift them again and continue on...

GG

[Sevenbak]

Well, looks like we have just such an experiment on Youtube. Haven't yet watched it, so we can all watch it together.

I hope you're joking. At least use the same parameters described. Wooded, hidden assailants, spread out over 3 miles, never together. And get rid of that rod. Get a strong 21 year old farm boy, not a couch potato. Also, greedy mob type folks would not be better conditioned than Joseph, I have no doubt.

Those elements combined might make a video worth watching.

[Tchild2]

If that was the case, you'd have a big problem explaining these copper Hopewell swords, knives and axes away.

isn't that exactly what hammered native copper and gold (iron from meteorites) technology consisted of? What do you think the metal rings of the plates might have been composed of?

[Sevenbak]

What do believe to be the material difference between the dimensions of the plates and a dumbell that would make the plates easier to handle? The point is that the plates, like the dumbell do not allow transfer of the weight to other parts of the body. That is why comparing the plates to a loaded mail satchel are unequal; the mail satchel has a shoulder strap which transfer the weight across the body more evenly and freeing the arms to allow the pendulum motion of running.

The plates were in a cloth, distributing the weight up the height of the package, not just a slim heavy disk. At the very least, give me a disk with rings.

[Tchild2]

I hope you're joking. At least use the same parameters described. Wooded, hidden assailants, spread out over 3 miles, never together. And get rid of that rod. Get a strong 21 year old farm boy, not a couch potato. Also, greedy mob type folks would not be better conditioned than Joseph, I have no doubt.

Those elements combined might make a video worth watching.

What material difference would it make? Please elaborate. What does the rod matter, or the fact that the weights are round and not squared like the plates? The principals of the physics involved are the same. Unless you can show otherwise, you are arguing against the absolute non essentials.

[Ceeboo]

And get rid of that rod. Get a strong 21 year old farm boy, not a couch potato.

Who would have thought you could get this kind of free entertainment on a Saturday night ( MADB for forum of the year!!! )