The weight of the golden plates

[Sevenbak]

isn't that exactly what hammered native copper and gold (iron from meteorites) technology consisted of? What do you think the metal rings of the plates might have been composed of?

I suggest you google ancient america copper smelting.

[Tchild2]

The plates were in a cloth, distributing the weight up the height of the package, not just a slim heavy disk. At the very least, give me a disk with rings.

The "package" being the cloth covering? Does cloth distribute the weight?

Now, strong rings that would support the plates would allow the person to hold the plated one handed and run for a short distance at least. Problem is, the metallurgy of the time doesn't allow for very strong metals. The best argument (from silence, because we have no information) is that the plates were fashioned with native iron from a found meteorite.

Now the next question, does the description of the plates allow for rings large enough to fit the whole hand or just a few fingers?

[Jake]

Even the strongest, biggest, running back in the NFL wouldn't be able to get very far carrying a 60 pound + (the LOW end of the ESTIMATED weight of the plates) weight tucked under his arm. Jumping over things and evading capture? You're kidding right? Didn't Joseph also have a bum leg from infection in his youth?

Either way, Brother Joseph was amazing and once again way ahead of his time. Perhaps if he were around today he would be a star in the NFL. Instead of EMMITT Smith holding the career rushing record, it would be JOSEPH Smith's name in the record book.

And of course, he would be playing for the SAINTS!!

[Sevenbak]

Who would have thought you could get this kind of free entertainment on a Saturday night ( MADB for forum of the year!!! )

Hey, it's a boring Sat. night for me too.

[Sevenbak]

The "package" being the cloth covering? Does cloth distribute the weight?

Now, strong rings that would support the plates would allow the person to hold the plated one handed and run for a short distance at least. Problem is, the metallurgy of the time doesn't allow for very strong metals. The best argument (from silence, because we have no information) is that the plates were fashioned with native iron from a found meteorite.

Now the next question, does the description of the plates allow for rings large enough to fit the whole hand or just a few fingers?

There are alloy mixes of copper bronze and tin found, as well as iron objects as well. Point is, we don't know what the rings were made of.

[Tchild2]

I suggest you google ancient america copper smelting.

You showed the Hopewell people: The overall consensus of Mesoamerican scholars is that advanced metallurgy, including smelting, did not exist in ancient Mesoamerica until the Late Postclassic period, or around 800 AD

They used copper quite frequently, as well as iron and silver. But while they were skilled metal workers, they never mastered the techniques of smelting ores. Their metals were all derived from either native copper or silver nuggets or iron-rich meteors

[Tchild2]

There are alloy mixes of copper bronze and tin found, as well as iron objects as well. Point is, we don't know what the rings were made of.

So speculate then. What are the options?

[Sevenbak]

You showed the Hopewell people: The overall consensus of Mesoamerican scholars is that advanced metallurgy, including smelting, did not exist in ancient Mesoamerica until the Late Postclassic period, or around 800 AD

Page 27 and 28. Pay close attention to the section of copper casting furnaces.http://books.google.com/books?id=Obgdz8auw...lt&resnum=3

So speculate then. What are the options?

Brass or bronze. That's my guess as to the rings.

[Jigglysaint]

Brad?

Brad?

[crickets/]

Braaaaaaaaaad!

Sorry, couldn't resist. Just wanted to find a place I could do that in public.

I am pretty sure that even if the plates were too heavy for most people, God would have surely found a way to strengthen Joseph enough to get the plates home. Besides, the plates would have had to be light enough for Moroni to transport. Ahh if only we were able to see and handle those plates for ourselves.

[AKS]

Man, a person wouldn't come across so many robbers trying to move the plates through downtown Philly. Really, apart from Tchilds point of weight what are the chances of being attacked 3 different times in a 3 mile stretch in rural Pennsylvania (and off the road no less)? And then a highly encumbered farm boy is able to fight them off each time? It is a fantastic story and one that I don't think you can accept without looking to supernatural explanations.

[Tchild2]

Page 27 and 28. Pay close attention to the section of copper casting furnaces.http://books.google.com/books?id=Obgdz8auw...lt&resnum=3Brass or bronze. That's my guess as to the rings.

Thanks for the link.

Well, the Hopewells were not in Mesoamerica and not considered part of the consensus of potential BoM lands and people by apologists here. Again, the consensus is that Brass and Bronze smelting metallurgy were not known until after 800 A.D.

In her essay Does the Shoe Fit? A Critique of the Limited Tehuantepec Geographcy from New Approaches to the Book of Mormon, Deanne Matheny makes this distinction, on page 283:

In discussing metals, it is important to distinguish between metalworking, the the act or process of shaping things out of metal, and metallurgy, the science and technology of metals, which may involve such processes as smelting, casting, and alloying. Many groups in both the Old World and the New developed the art of cold-hammering naturally occurring nuggets of copper, gold, and meteoric iron. This art did not require the smelting of ores. The discovery of the properties of metal and their ores in the Old World was likely a gradual one. People first recognized native metals, especially gold, copper, and meteoric iron, then learned that certain ores contained metals, and finally discovered how to smelt the metals (Raymond 1986, 9-10). The reference to metals in the Book of Mormon strongly imply an advanced knowledge of metallurgy including the casting and alloying of metals.

Mormonmesoamerica

So, if we exlude Bronze and Brass, what options remain for the composition of the rings?

[Sevenbak]

Man, a person wouldn't come across so many robbers trying to move the plates through downtown Philly. Really, apart from Tchilds point of weight what are the chances of being attacked 3 different times in a 3 mile stretch in rural Pennsylvania (and off the road no less)? And then a highly encumbered farm boy is able to fight them off each time? It is a fantastic story and one that I don't think you can accept without looking to supernatural explanations.

Um, you do know it was planned, and Joseph was warned of the attempt through the Urim and Thummim. This is why he hurried to where he had hid them in the log, and why he got off the road so soon.

And it wasn't Pennsylvania, it was upstate New York. At least get your anti mormon references right...

[Sevenbak]

Your "consensus" as to what Mormons believe is not mine.

Like I said before, yet another reason I don't buy the modern LGT theory. That said, there was also smelting in MesoAmerica, but not as much, and there was also trade between regions, that is a given. Not sure what point it is you are going for.

[Tchild2]

Your "consensus" as to what Mormons believe is not mine.

Like I said before, yet another reason I don't buy the modern LGT theory. That said, there was also smelting in MesoAmerica, but not as much, and there was also trade between regions, that is a given. Not sure what point it is you are going for.

Ok. So, when apologists appeal to the plates being likely composed of tumbaga (which is a pretty reasoned and logical explanation) as the probable source metal and composition of the plates due to what is known of Mesoamerican metallurgy, but when we do the same for the rings holding the plates, we are not held to the same standard of "consensus"?

That doesn't seem right, does it?

[Sevenbak]

Ok. So, when apologists appeal to the plates being likely composed of tumbaga (which is a pretty reasoned and logical explanation) as the probable source metal and composition of the plates due to what is known of Mesoamerican metallurgy, but when we do the same for the rings holding the plates, we are not held to the same standard of "consensus"?That doesn't seem right, does it?

We don't even have a description of the rings, other than they were D shaped. That makes any speculation, just that.

We don't even have a description of the rings, other than they were D shaped. That makes any speculation, just that.

BTW, I'm logging off for the night. Shocking, I know...It's been real.

[Tchild2]

We don't even have a description of the rings, other than they were D shaped. That makes any speculation, just that.

Well, if Lehi wants to use the rings as a potential handle that Joseph may have used to run with the plates, then it helps to know if there were metals strong enough to support running with an object up to 60 lbs in weight that wouldn't break or weren't too malleable in use during that era in Mesoamerica. It would also help to know if the rings left enough room above and beyond the plate pages to be able to fit the whole hand comfortably (to hold like a handle while running) or if their "D" shape, only allowed a couple of fingers (impossible to use as a handle while running).

There may or may not be enough information on every detail, so some educated guesswork might help narrow the options down some.

[MAsh]

Lucy Mack Smith was obviously an inerrant eyewitness to the event. She ran aside her son Joseph with a video camera recording every detail of Joseph's run through the woods being chased by three assailants. Then, using the video footage, she wrote down each event precisely as it happened, choosing only those words that are unambiguous and clearly described exactly what transpired. She had a team of language experts read her account and compare it with the video to make sure that every single word in her record precisely retold the events of the video.

While no one else has mentioned this fact, it's obvious from some of the comments in this thread that some of the critics are aware of this information, otherwise they wouldn't be so insistent on the specifics of every word in Lucy's account.

I, on the other hand, believe that the video story is a conspiracy-theory myth created by a Lucy-Mack-Smith-the-Infallible-Prophet's-Mother cult. I have this wild idea-- and I suspect that very few people subscribe to it-- that when Joseph Smith came home, he told his mother what had happened. She probably didn't even write it down immediately. In fact, she may not have written it down until many years later and then only when she was formulating her memoires. While it may be blasphemous to some on this list to suggest that Lucy wasn't infallible, and that her memory and interpretation of what she remembers hearing from Joseph was also not infallible, I believe that she wrote the event according to her best recollection. Let's examine this account again:

"After proceeding a short distance..."

This is a clue that Lucy-- despite some of the implications of those on this board-- was not infallible. What is short distance? I'm a "short distance" from my computer. Were the plates really secured 1.8 feet from the house? Someone is lying here.

"...he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods."

Was there a trail? Did he just wander into the woods? I think Lucy knows more than she's telling us here.

"Traveling some distance after he left the road...,"

Again with the vagueness. Does she know the precise details or doesn't she? How can she be vague on the distance but describe with such precision how he "jumped," ran, and fought of his attackers?

"...he came to a large windfall...,"

How large? I think my big toe is large in comparison to my other toes. Tchild2 must have seen the alleged video since he knows that it was large enough to hide an attacker (see more below). Since I think the video is a hoax, I wouldn't be surprised if the attacker was hiding somewhere else-- maybe behind a still-standing tree. If I was an attacker I donâ??t think I'd like to lay in the dirt with the bugs just waiting for Joseph Smith to come by and try to jump over the fallen tree. I think I'd hide behind still-standing trees and follow him, or listen for him, and then sneak up and attack when it looked like an opportune moment.

"...and as he was jumping over a log,"

While Lucy obviously believed that Joseph was a world-class hurlder-- at least that's what she recorded in the video-- I'll bet that-- assuming the "log" (or was it a "large windfall"?) was either small enough to step over in one kinda-jumping step, or it was big enough that Joseph climbed atop the tree then jumped down from it back to the ground. Those who believe in the infallible Lucy will no doubt see my speculation as heresy-- he hurdled a Sequoia!

â??â?¦a man sprang up from behind it,â?

Hereâ??s the evidence that the tree was big enough to hide a man. Or was it simply that after Joseph jumped to the ground, the man appeared from behindâ??seemingly from the fallen tree. Those who have access to the tape should play this one back frame by frame to make sureâ??of course maybe Lucyâ??s camera didnâ??t have the right angle to see from where this figure emerged.

â??â?¦and gave him a heavy blow with a gun.â?

A blow to the head? The back? The shoulder? Why so vague? If Lucy has the tape and can tell that the assailant came precisely from the fallen tree, why doesnâ??t she tell us where he struck Joseph?

â??Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed.â?

Of course â??top of his speedâ? is a constant velocity. There are no variables. While I donâ??t think Lucy had a stop watch, itâ??s possible that a forensic team could calculate Josephâ??s speed from the video. Whatever the case, we know that his top speed would not have been impeded by the fact that he was carrying the plates.

Just for the record, while it may be hard to tell from the softness in my middle section (which, to my dismay has grown a bit since I turned forty almost 8 years ago), Iâ??ve been lifting free weights for about 30 years. I currently work out 5 days a week but there have been periods when I work out only 3 days a week. I, like Tchild2, am familiar with the dumbbells, barbells, and 45 lb plates. While Iâ??m stronger today than when I was 20, my knees are not as good a shape. Nevertheless, I could, if necessary move for at least some distance (to use Lucyâ??s vague terminology) carrying a 60 lb weightâ??and I could have moved a greater distance and faster when I was 20. If I moved as fast as I possibly could considering the added weight, I would still be moving â??at the top of [my] speedâ? (which would be a lesser speed than when I ran without the extra 60 lbs). Since Lucy had a precise record of the event, however, this couldnâ??t possibly be the case with Joseph.

â??About half a mile furtherâ?¦â?

The video obviously shows that Joseph continued to run for this entire half mile. Since I doubt the veracity of the video, however, I suspect that he ran as far as he could to hide from the attacker, and then moved as quickly as possible the rest of the half-mile.

â??â?¦he was attacked again in the same manner as before;â?

â??In the same manner?â? Does she mean that he â??jumpedâ? over another fallen tree and that another attacker was counting grubs under the tree, awaiting Josephâ??s arrival, until the opportunity came for him to leap to his feet and hit Joseph with his gun? If not, how can we trust the precision of anything Lucy says? Sheâ??s either infallible or a liar!

â??â?¦he knocked this man down in like manner as the former,â?

Obviously it must have been an attack in the exact manner as the first attacker, because Joseph responded in exactly the same way. It must have been like watching a rerun but the 2nd attacker may have been wearing different cloths and shaved his beard more closely.

â??â?¦and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time.â?

In the exact same manner? This is my brother Darryl, my other brother Darryl, and my third brother Darryl. I hate to call Lucy on thisâ??and maybe if I ever get to see the video Iâ??ll change my mindâ??but Iâ??ll bet that the three men made attacks that were all slightly different.

â??In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb,â?

Which thumb? And how? Surely Lucy must know these answers unless, as I suspect, she really didnâ??t write this down until many years later.

â??â?¦which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fenceâ?¦â?

Why did he have to throw himself down? If he was tired, wouldnâ??t he have just collapsed from exhaustion? I know that some of you are convinced that every word in Lucyâ??s account is precisely accurate, but comments like this make me wonder.

â??â?¦in order to recover his breath.â?

And this is obviously because he ran the entire way. Not because he ran in short burst to escape an assailant and then walked as quickly as possible the rest of the time. I wouldnâ??t be surprised to see on the video that Joseph may even have stopped to lean against a tree for a moment to catch his breath before continuing on to the house. I know, I knowâ?¦ blasphemous comments.

â??As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house.â?

3 minutes? An hour? Again with the vagueness. According to the logic of some on this list, Lucy was either infallible, or a liar. Iâ??m an iconoclast and, until I see the video myself, will stick with the probably far-fetched theory that she wrote her memoires many years later and tried to describe things the best as she recalled, based on how she understood what Joseph had conveyed to her.

Mike the Rebel

[Garden Girl]

Lucy Mack Smith was obviously an inerrant eyewitness to the event. She ran aside her son Joseph with a video camera recording every detail of Joseph's run through the woods being chased by three assailants. Then, using the video footage, she wrote down each event precisely as it happened, choosing only those words that are unambiguous and clearly described exactly what transpired. She had a team of language experts read her account and compare it with the video to make sure that every single word in her record precisely retold the events of the video.

Mike the Rebel

Thanks Mike... I needed this...

GG

[Tchild2]

3 minutes? An hour? Again with the vagueness. According to the logic of some on this list, Lucy was either infallible, or a liar.

No one has claimed either.

Iâ??m an iconoclast and, until I see the video myself, will stick with the probably far-fetched theory that she wrote her memoires many years later and tried to describe things the best as she recalled, based on how she understood what Joseph had conveyed to her.

Ok, so maybe the "windfall" wasn't as large, the "jumping", less than a sprinter style hurdle, the fending off of surprising assailants, embellished or perhaps imagined in the semi-paranoid mind of Joseph Smith. Lots of possibilities exist don't they Mike?

But, anyone who has handled a heavy concentrated weight (the plates were 6"W X 8" L X 6" thickness) knows that you cannot put it under one arm and run, carry it and outrun, not one, but three assailants who had the element of surprise, not matter how you remix it, reinterpret it or reimagine the scenario.

Either the assailants were wheelchair bound criminals, or Joseph Smith embelllished the story to spice it up. Or, perhaps he offered a fabricated story and never really had gold plates, and his story reflects a fertile imagination that never really thought about the ramifications of the physics of running, dodging and fending off assailants with a very heavy and compact weight in his hands?

[rodheadlee]

Um, I used to grab 2 - 50lb boxes of mud and trot them up 3 flights of stairs all day long, one in each hand. I don't think you have to be superman, you just have to be driven. My drive was monetary, it paid x amount of dollars to take those pallets of boxes up those stairs. I'm 6-3 and only 210, in those days I weighed 180.

[Notquitewetyet]

The only replica I've ever seen is in the Grandin Print shop in Palmyra, where the Church has it and some first edition BOM's on display, among other things.

There's also a replica at the Palmyra visitors' center. But it's in a plexiglass display case.

[Connolly]

Brad,

Chances are very good that the replica you saw was not archeologically correct at all but some artist's rendition, probably by an artist who had never seen a real set of gold plates.

This is what a real set of gold plates looks like:

This set is on display in the Seoul National Museum in Seoul Korea. I have seen them myself. As you can see, the plates are not perfectly flat, and folded up there are gaps between the pages. They were made by hammering the gold into thin sheets of foil, you can still see the hammer marks, and this example of gold plates is very similar in description to Emma Smith's description of feeling the plates through the cloth when she indicated they were thick like very heavy paper and made crinking sounds as she pressed on them.

If we want to understand what the Book of Mormon Gold plates were like then we need to look at real archeological examples of similar plates and not the replications made by someone who quite frankly probably knows very little about what they are replicating - and that includes artistic renditions and replications made by both critics and believers. When we look at real gold plates and see how they lay and stack its easy to see that the plates no not form a solid mass and the plates were not heavy castings as is depicted in so many paintings, replicas, and other art work, both of LDS origin and critical origin. As you can clearly see, on the plates picture above, any weight estimate that assumes a basically solid chunk of gold will be way off and that by volume at least half the volume is air as the sheets simply do not lay flat.

Until critics begin to be realistic about what the gold plates may have looked like by using real archeological examples for reference then polemics revolving around their weight and Joseph's ability to carry them are pure silliness.

[ERayR]

Um, I used to grab 2 - 50lb boxes of mud and trot them up 3 flights of stairs all day long, one in each hand. I don't think you have to be superman, you just have to be driven. My drive was monetary, it paid x amount of dollars to take those pallets of boxes up those stairs. I'm 6-3 and only 210, in those days I weighed 180.

To a person who spends their time in hard physical labor (clearing stumps, picking rocks, digging ditches - I'm sure you get the idea) a 60 pound weight would have slowed them down but not by much.

Rodheadlee: I to in my younger years, much younger like 18 or19 could do much more than today. I could put a 100 pound sack of beans on each sholder and walk off with it. Most times my motivation was one of two things, 1) to get the job done so I could find something more enjoyable to do or 2) to showoff.

Sadly, or maybe not so sadly those days are gone.

[Jaybear]

To a person who spends their time in hard physical labor (clearing stumps, picking rocks, digging ditches - I'm sure you get the idea) a 60 pound weight would have slowed them down but not by much.

That's funny. Thank you for the laugh.

Was Smith being chased by a gang of 80 year old men?

[Calm]

He had the plates in wrapped in his shirt.

And likely the sleeves and ends were knotted together so that it wouldn't fall open in the wind. This would provide a handle when needed.

I think it's problematic to rely on Lucy's account of what Joseph told her as completely accurate, especially for the entire trip as if the plates were heavy chances are JS shifted them to ease the stress on certain muscles. I find it hard to believe that JS gave her a step by step account instead of a quick overview with emphasis on the exciting parts....and then she had to remember the details much later where she likely had filled in the gaps herself when she replayed/visualized the event in her memories, a common occurrence in any memory recall scenario.

I highly doubt that the Lord would have allowed the plates to be taken from him due to physical limitations. From time to time, the Lord gave JS warnings to move the plates to a different place, after all. If the plates actually existed, it is likely imo that the Lord ensured they'd get to where they needed to be even if that meant JS was stronger than normal or the plates were lighter. There is scriptural evidence that the Lord expands people's physical abilities when needed (the reference to the women being able to tolerate the hardships of the trek from Jerusalem, for example).

I think given the miraculous nature of the whole account of the discovery and the translation of the plates, to depend on this claim as if it was significant evidence against is silly.