Why does life make it so hard to trust God?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

If it’s true that he intervenes at times and not in others, then there “is” no difference, as I see it

For me it depends on why he intervenes and doesn’t, but I don’t see any way to identify a difference or an explanation that isn’t pure speculation at the bottom as to why one and not another at this point.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, let’s roll said:

a mortality where not one of us would be lost.

But we are also told this wouldn’t have actually worked.  I think the other was more acceptable because this one wasn’t a valid option.

[let’s roll]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

But we are also told this wouldn’t have actually worked.  I think the other was more acceptable because this one wasn’t a valid option.

True.  But what does “wouldn’t work” mean in this context…that some would indeed be lost or that none of us would be exalted because we had no free will?

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

True.  But what does “wouldn’t work” mean in this context…that some would indeed be lost or that none of us would be exalted because we had no free will?

Pretty sure that he could not save us at all….as in no progression.  Maybe resurrected, though not perfected physical bodies if he was able to break death’s barrier as Christ did.  I don’t know what in Christ allows him to do that for us for us.  Was it simply his direct connection with God or something more that requires caring about others?

I believe he was promising then what he promises now, no law, just do what you want.  I don’t know if we would have experienced guilt without law if somehow he could make it work.  Would be awful if we did and didn’t have a way to be redeemed by someone capable to it.  He does not appear to be so in my view.  He appears to me to be too egocentric.

Edited Monday at 03:28 AM by Calm

[MustardSeed]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

For me it depends on why he intervenes and doesn’t, but I don’t see any way to identify a difference or an explanation that isn’t pure speculation at the bottom as to why one and not another at this point.

I think we are getting closer to what drives “me“ nuts about this topic. I get really triggered when people who have outrageously, beautiful, fortunate, wealthy beyond imagination, fun, ridiculous lives, and they claim to be “blessed” - like it just sends me to the moon. Likewise, when people have really hard things going on and they want to know why God has given them these trials and what he wants them to learn. This also sends me to the moon.   
If there’s any truth to these philosophies, then I’d like a word with God. But I do not believe that there is. There is no way that a God who is just and all knowing is going to create such diversity.

I have to believe we do it to ourselves and that God weeps for us when things are hard and that he will exact absolute justice in the end. What else could there possibly be?

That’s my biggest complaint about being religious. I have to hear these messages all the time and it just sends me! 😕

[Rain]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I think we are getting closer to what drives “me“ nuts about this topic. I get really triggered when people who have outrageously, beautiful, fortunate, wealthy beyond imagination, fun, ridiculous lives, and they claim to be “blessed” - like it just sends me to the moon. Likewise, when people have really hard things going on and they want to know why God has given them these trials and what he wants them to learn. This also sends me to the moon.   
If there’s any truth to these philosophies, then I’d like a word with God. But I do not believe that there is. There is no way that a God who is just and all knowing is going to create such diversity.

I have to believe we do it to ourselves and that God weeps for us when things are hard and that he will exact absolute justice in the end. What else could there possibly be?

That’s my biggest complaint about being religious. I have to hear these messages all the time and it just sends me! 😕

By "do it to ourselves, do you mean to ourselves personally, or do you mean as humans as a whole? 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I think we are getting closer to what drives “me“ nuts about this topic. I get really triggered when people who have outrageously, beautiful, fortunate, wealthy beyond imagination, fun, ridiculous lives, and they claim to be “blessed” - like it just sends me to the moon. Likewise, when people have really hard things going on and they want to know why God has given them these trials and what he wants them to learn. This also sends me to the moon.   
If there’s any truth to these philosophies, then I’d like a word with God. But I do not believe that there is. There is no way that a God who is just and all knowing is going to create such diversity.

I have to believe we do it to ourselves and that God weeps for us when things are hard and that he will exact absolute justice in the end. What else could there possibly be?

That’s my biggest complaint about being religious. I have to hear these messages all the time and it just sends me! 😕

I’ve been feeling that lately, about being thankful for blessings and how that can feel like being thankful that I have been given things other people haven’t.  And then I don’t really know what to do with trails because it’s like acknowledging that you aren’t being blessed during those times. 

[MustardSeed]

57 minutes ago, Rain said:

By "do it to ourselves, do you mean to ourselves personally, or do you mean as humans as a whole? 

As a whole.   In other words, it’s just life.  (imo) 

[Rain]

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I’ve been feeling that lately, about being thankful for blessings and how that can feel like being thankful that I have been given things other people haven’t.  And then I don’t really know what to do with trails because it’s like acknowledging that you aren’t being blessed during those times. 

Perhaps this can help? Grateful in Any Circumstances By President Dieter F. Uchtdorf - Being Grateful in Our Circumstances, not just for our circumstances

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Perhaps this can help? Grateful in Any Circumstances By President Dieter F. Uchtdorf - Being Grateful in Our Circumstances, not just for our circumstances

I like the talk. I don’t know how to be grateful in all circumstances when the definition of gratitude is to be thankful. I don’t know how to be thankful for trials.  He gives some examples but they didn’t seem to show people being thankful as much as they showed people praising or worshipping God despite hardships. Being loyal and being thankful seem like two separate things to me.

(just my thoughts I don’t expect you to have answers)

[Teancum]

On 10/11/2026 at 2:54 PM, smac97 said:

I hope you won't mind me responding to your inquiry to Bluebell.  Feel free to disregard if I am out of line.

I addressed this inquiry back in 2021.  It's a bit verbose, so here is a "TLDR" version generated by Grok, followed by the longer version:

TLDR Version:

Original Version:

I would appreciate any critique or assessment of the above.

Thanks,

-Smac

I am quite fine with you or any others sharing their thoughts. This is a topic that is incredibly important I think, not just to me, but to all of us. It is a serious topic. And I have appreciated everyone's comments. I want to give some comments to this and some other posts. But I have to punt for a bit. I am still a part time partner at a CPA firm doing tax work. And the final deadline of 10/15 is almost here. And then I leave for a ten day trip out of the country. So, I promise to revisit this down the road. I just don't have the time to some thoughtful comments myself.

Thank you all!

[Teancum]

On 10/11/2026 at 2:31 PM, bluebell said:

 I have no answers but someone a few weeks ago talked about how maybe this life is better understood less as a test that God has designed and more as a prerequisite that must be accomplished (not because He capriciously decided it but because there is no way, no literal way, for us to be able to access the celestial kingdom without the changes that mortality creates, not just physically but in all the ways).

That person described it a lot better and it was actually connected to physics and the laws of physics (if I remember right it was the specific laws dealing with entropy) so it was a way cooler and more in depth explanation than my pitiful description of it, but it made a lot of sense to me.   

A quick thought.  I used to think this way as well. That the only way we could learn to become a god and to be like Christ, was to suffer through all the awful suffering a life can bring, whatever that may be. I am still sympathetic to that if I believed that we actually do become a god like being. 

[Calm]

23 hours ago, let’s roll said:

That said, my understanding is that before any of us experienced mortality we were given the choice between mortality as we are experiencing it and a mortality where not one of us would be lost.

Been thinking about this.  

If this was all we were told, it wouldn’t convince me this life was fair or just simply because we chose it out if what we were given.  Because bluntly it looks to me that we were offered two lame choices and we wisely chose the lesser evil in terms of mortality and its value (a hellish life for most, but an awesome eternity vs a blah, maybe painless life—though Lucifer only promises to save us, not to protect us from harm, so could be a hellish life for every last one of us—and a blah eternity with no progression).  That doesn’t turn the lesser evil into something wonderful or fair anymore than being told we would be murdered, but got to choose a quick painless death instead of following prolonged torture would mean our murder was fair and/or wonderful.

We are also told we shouted for joy.  That changes our choice option to apparently not lame, but extremely beneficial and fulfilling; still, we are left to trust this is true.  This isn’t knowledge, but faith imo.  

Edited yesterday at 12:00 AM by Calm

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I like the talk. I don’t know how to be grateful in all circumstances when the definition of gratitude is to be thankful. I don’t know how to be thankful for trials.  He gives some examples but they didn’t seem to show people being thankful as much as they showed people praising or worshipping God despite hardships. Being loyal and being thankful seem like two separate things to me.

(just my thoughts I don’t expect you to have answers)

I get it.  Something grabbed hold of me with that talk, but I knew I didn't understand it at the time. I've since gained more understanding through reading books by Thich Nhat Hanh a Vietnamese Buddist monk, probably more in his book "No Mud. No Lotus. The Art of Transforming Suffering", but I couldn't say for sure it was that one.  

It doesn't really help with the thread question.  Just that it helped me with gratitude in our circumstances rather than for them.

 

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I like the talk. I don’t know how to be grateful in all circumstances when the definition of gratitude is to be thankful. I don’t know how to be thankful for trials.  He gives some examples but they didn’t seem to show people being thankful as much as they showed people praising or worshipping God despite hardships. Being loyal and being thankful seem like two separate things to me.

(just my thoughts I don’t expect you to have answers)

The Apostle Paul was exceedingly grateful for all the trials and tribulations he had to pass through because he came to realize that it was by faithfully grappling with and overcoming each of these great challenges that the Lord was able to increasingly strengthen him in the inner man until he was finally spiritually empowered to overcome this fallen world and know before death that his exaltation was assured. Herein is the answer to your question.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak then am I strong. (2 Corinthians 12)

Edited yesterday at 01:24 AM by teddyaware

[MrShorty]

Re: Pres. Uchtdorf's talk, and riffing on the quote in the OP

On 10/9/2026 at 9:30 AM, bluebell said:

So now when someone says 'Trust God with the outcome' you don't hear comfort.  You hear:  Anything can happen and if it does, you have to find a way to [be grateful]. 

This is what I find so compelling about this whole discussion. I'm sure Pres. Uchtdorf means well -- and there's probably actually some real truth in what he says -- but somewhere in this long battle with evil and suffering, it all just seems to come across as empty platitudes. It just seems that, no matter what answers we think we find or how we try to comfort ourselves, underneath it all is the acknowledgement that sometimes life is just hard.

[Rain]

8 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Re: Pres. Uchtdorf's talk, and riffing on the quote in the OP

This is what I find so compelling about this whole discussion. I'm sure Pres. Uchtdorf means well -- and there's probably actually some real truth in what he says -- but somewhere in this long battle with evil and suffering, it all just seems to come across as empty platitudes. It just seems that, no matter what answers we think we find or how we try to comfort ourselves, underneath it all is the acknowledgement that sometimes life is just hard.

That acknowledgement has given me peace, but I understand it might not to others. But then through my life I have appreciated when people have acknowledged that things will be hard. It's like I was listened to.

 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

A quick thought.  I used to think this way as well. That the only way we could learn to become a god and to be like Christ, was to suffer through all the awful suffering a life can bring, whatever that may be. I am still sympathetic to that if I believed that we actually do become a god like being. 

I'm explaining it really poorly, largely because I didn't understand it completely I'm sure.  But the premise (as I remember it) was that the fall introduced the Law of Entropy into play.  Once entropy entered creation, there is no stopping it. Everything will eventually entropy and decay into disorder if left to its own devices.  The suffering--and everything else that comes with mortality--is just entropy in action.  The Plan of Salvation is the only way to stop the entropy and give us access to the kind of life that God and Christ have--one without the effects of entropy.

Justin Ritter wrote an article about a lecture that the physicist David Derrick gave called "Time, Entropy, and Faith Connected" (I haven't been able to find a transcript of the lecture itself so Ritter's summary is the best I can do) where Ritter explained that Derrick said:

Quote

 

"In the words of the late Mormon scientist Dr. Henry Eyring, “science is in pursuit of truth, and religion, or the gospel, encompasses truth,” David Derrick told an audience on Thursday, Oct. 7, in the Royden G. Derrick Planetarium.

Two scientific principles in particular—time and entropy—can be give some possible insights into religious beliefs like the fall of man and the nature of mortal existence, he said.

Time, unlike other physical parameters, can only move in one direction. No one knows the reason for this, but scientists do have a prime suspect, Derrick said. That suspect is entropy, or the tendency for everything to move from a state of order to one of disorder, dispersion and decay.

“Everything succumbs to entropy,” Derrick said. “If there was no entropy, what would the universe be like? Matter would eternally be organized, time would flow multidirectionally, one could see the beginning and the end and time would continually be before us.”

That description, Derrick said, fits the state God lives in—and could also describe the state of the earth before the fall of man.

“Could it be that entropy is synonymous to mortality?” Derrick asked.

 

 

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, bluebell said:

haven't been able to find a transcript of the lecture itself so Ritter's summary is the best I can do

Contacting the Physics dept at BYU might work. They have an email address on their site.  It’s physics_office@byu.edu

Here’s the info according to a news article chat found:

• Thursday, October 7, 2010
   
• Location: The Royden G. Derrick Planetarium (located in the Eyring Science Center at BYU)
• Sponsorship: The lecture is an annual series sponsored by entrepreneur Briant Summerhays in honor of his father, Hyrum, to promote harmony and dialogue between science and religion. [1, 2, 3, 4]

https://news.byu.edu/news/david-derrick-present-annual-summerhays-lecture-oct-7

looks like Derrick is not a physicist, but is an astronomy hobbyist and supporter.

”Derrick is an industry leader in personal remote monitoring and is a College Volunteer Leadership Council member in BYU’s College of Physical and Mathematical Sciences. He also serves on BYU’s President’s Leadership Council.

An astronomy enthusiast, Derrick has made many contributions to astrophysics research through generous donations. The International Astronomical Union and Smithsonian Institute have named an asteroid after him to honor his efforts. He holds a bachelor’s degree in economics and an MBA from the University of Utah.”

Edited yesterday at 02:57 AM by Calm

[manol]

On 10/10/2026 at 9:58 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

The "dog" of clinical depression alternating between nipping at my heels and threatening to devour me whole—until, mercifully, it simply ... stopped chasing me.  I have no idea how or why that happened.  I know only that, ultimately, it had nothing to do with more professionals with more brooms than I can count striving earnestly to  help me "chase the bats from my belfry."  They simply ... left. 

That is wonderful, and I am very happy for you!

I can't explain such things either.  Maybe that particular "isometric exercise" stage was over? 

[Kenngo1969]

8 hours ago, manol said:

That is wonderful, and I am very happy for you!

I can't explain such things either.  Maybe that particular "isometric exercise" stage was over? 

Could be.  Indeed, could very well be.

For what it's worth, I value our friendship (cyber-friendship though it is) highly.

Thanks.

A Brother in Christ,

Ken

[let’s roll]

On 10/12/2026 at 4:45 PM, Calm said:

Been thinking about this.  

If this was all we were told, it wouldn’t convince me this life was fair or just simply because we chose it out if what we were given.  Because bluntly it looks to me that we were offered two lame choices and we wisely chose the lesser evil in terms of mortality and its value (a hellish life for most, but an awesome eternity vs a blah, maybe painless life—though Lucifer only promises to save us, not to protect us from harm, so could be a hellish life for every last one of us—and a blah eternity with no progression).  That doesn’t turn the lesser evil into something wonderful or fair anymore than being told we would be murdered, but got to choose a quick painless death instead of following prolonged torture would mean our murder was fair and/or wonderful.

We are also told we shouted for joy.  That changes our choice option to apparently not lame, but extremely beneficial and fulfilling; still, we are left to trust this is true.  This isn’t knowledge, but faith imo.  

Thanks Calm.  As I’ve come to expect from you, your comments were thoughtful and thought provoking and I thank you for that.
 

I have a special reverence for our premortal life.  That reverence was born during the many hours I spent searching for insight about my son.  The return on that investment of time and tears did not come quickly, but it came, not all at once but over years.    As it did, it was much more comprehensive than insight into my son and his premortal choices, but mine as well.  It’s sacred to me.   Some observations:

     *Insistence blocks revelation.  I spent much of my early quest wandering in the fog of my insistence, unable to hear His whispers because I was metaphorically yelling at Him, telling Him what He needed to tell me and why.

     *The first ray of light was the totally unexpected idea that I should ask my nonverbal son for answers to my questions.  That changed the way I approach the many hours I spend with my son.  I began to perceive and understand what he was telling me without him having to speak.  Those insights were, and continue to be, breathtaking.  Many are personal to him.  Others come as a result of Deity’s expanding and linking those insights as I pondered them.

      *The puzzle of mortality is often frustrating because some of the pieces were given to us in our premortal life.  We need to part the veil to recall those pieces.   As we do, the puzzle becomes clearer but because other pieces may not  be  given to us until we leave mortality, faith remains until we have all the pieces.

       *Whether our mortal sojourn lasts a day or a hundred years, it is but a brief moment.  Our spiritual IQ will expand exponentially as we pass through the veil and the knowledge of our premortal experiences are joined with our mortal ones.  As was the case when we stood on the doorstep of mortality, our choice about our next step will be honored as we stand on the doorstep of eternity.

Edited 6 hours ago by let’s roll