Satan Not Neccesary

[Nofear]

Grant Arnold wrote an article: War a Good Warfare Understanding Agency in the Plan of Salvation (https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2001&context=re, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp47GOvBSBI). The Keystone youtube video adds some details only mentioned briefly in the article.

Makes many of the arguments that I have made in the past on this board about the non-necessity of a Satan to the Plan of Salvation. But he added a new one that I think I'll add to my personal arguments. Assume the position that 1) A Satan is necessary for the Plan to tempt Adam and Eve and 2) that Satan wants to frustrate God's plans. If 1) and 2) than 3) the smart thing for Satan to really destroy God's plan is to not tempt Adam and Eve (or barring that, just sit out the rest of the earth's history and not be the negative influence). I think Arnold has a good point.  

 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

Grant Arnold wrote an article: War a Good Warfare Understanding Agency in the Plan of Salvation (https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2001&context=re, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp47GOvBSBI). The Keystone youtube video adds some details only mentioned briefly in the article.

Makes many of the arguments that I have made in the past on this board about the non-necessity of a Satan to the Plan of Salvation. But he added a new one that I think I'll add to my personal arguments. Assume the position that 1) A Satan is necessary for the Plan to tempt Adam and Eve and 2) that Satan wants to frustrate God's plans. If 1) and 2) than 3) the smart thing for Satan to really destroy God's plan is to not tempt Adam and Eve (or barring that, just sit out the rest of the earth's history and not be the negative influence). I think Arnold has a good 

Expecting a being with totally darkened and depraved spiritual perceptions — whose rebellion in heaven had already enabled him to quite successfully draw away a third-part of the Father’s beloved spirit children into perdition — to think in a rational manner is at odds with the scriptures.. Why not rely on the iron rod of the word of God to inform your thinking on this subject instead of entertaining speculative flights of fancy conjured up by the arm of flesh? That being said, I can acknowledge that if Lucifer had somehow paradoxically been capable of divinely inspired rational thinking, while simultaneously also having a completely darkened spiritual mind, that he may not have tempted Eve in order to frustrate the designs of God but that’s not the kind of being we’re dealing with.

6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, 6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world. (Moses 4)

In other words, if Lucifer had already been successful in drawing away possibly billions of spirits into perdition, that very likely would have inflamed his spiritually sick mind with an all consuming dark passion to attempt to do the the same thing here on earth. And let’s face it, on the way to the ultimately positive redemptive destiny of this temporal earth’s inhabitants, he undeniably gets to “enjoy” creating a whole lot of over-the-top misery and woe in the meantime.

And then we have this…

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries… (Alma 12)

Edited Tuesday at 05:12 PM by teddyaware

[Nofear]

36 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Expecting a being with totally darkened and depraved spiritual perceptions — whose rebellion in heaven had already enabled him to quite successfully draw away a third-part of the Father’s beloved spirit children into perdition — to think in a rational manner is at odds with the scriptures..

I see this assertion as self-contradictory. Lucifer, one of the great ones, is able to convince a third of the hosts of heaven with his rhetoric but too stupid to see a simple strategic ploy that would frustrate God's plans? Naw. Completely illogical. Moreover, it is just one (the weakest) of multiple arguments against the necessity of Satan. 
 

37 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Why not rely on the iron rod of the word of God to inform your thinking on this subject instead of entertaining speculative flights of fancy conjured up by the arm of flesh?

Certainly a good position, relying on the scriptures and not on the arm of flesh. No where do the scriptures say that a Satan is necessary. That is a fleshy interpretation.

[webbles]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

Makes many of the arguments that I have made in the past on this board about the non-necessity of a Satan to the Plan of Salvation. But he added a new one that I think I'll add to my personal arguments. Assume the position that 1) A Satan is necessary for the Plan to tempt Adam and Eve and 2) that Satan wants to frustrate God's plans. If 1) and 2) than 3) the smart thing for Satan to really destroy God's plan is to not tempt Adam and Eve (or barring that, just sit out the rest of the earth's history and not be the negative influence). I think Arnold has a good point.  

That has puzzled me for a long time.  I do agree that Satan wasn't actually necessary for the Plan of Salvation, I did work up a solution to this.  Satan wanted more people to follow him (or be as miserable as him).  If he left Adam and Eve there, he wouldn't be able to get access to the other 2 parts in heaven (since they couldn't be born).  If he was successful in corrupting Christ (as I don't believe in perfect foreknowledge and so Christ could have messed up and frustrated the Plan of Salvation), then he gets all of those in heaven.  But even without corrupting Christ, he gets a chance to have more under him.  So, his hubris (which was his original downfall) led him to take that chance.

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

That has puzzled me for a long time.  I do agree that Satan wasn't actually necessary for the Plan of Salvation, I did work up a solution to this.  Satan wanted more people to follow him (or be as miserable as him).  If he left Adam and Eve there, he wouldn't be able to get access to the other 2 parts in heaven (since they couldn't be born).  If he was successful in corrupting Christ (as I don't believe in perfect foreknowledge and so Christ could have messed up and frustrated the Plan of Salvation), then he gets all of those in heaven.  But even without corrupting Christ, he gets a chance to have more under him.  So, his hubris (which was his original downfall) led him to take that chance.

My working "timeline":

Part I:
Heavenly Parents call a grand council of those ready to progress to the next stage (mortality).
Plan of Salvation -- implemented on other worlds is presented by Heavenly Father
Christ accepts plan
Lucifer presents alternate plan which destroys agency for "safety"(not tried before on other worlds, while Father's plan had been done so countless times before)
Lucifer's alternate plan rejected, Lucifer greatly annoyed (but no punishment so far, discussion was perfectly acceptable)
Down but not defeated Lucifer goes for consolation prize, plan B, and vies for the position of Adam
Jesus Christ picks Michael instead (not exactly trusting Lucifer, despite him having seniority to Michael)
Plans A and B defeated, Lucifer rebels and incites many to boycott this earth as they picket the courts of heaven with signs saying things like "Earth no, we won't go!", "No Lucifer, no morning!", or "Agency is Dangerous. Choose Lucifer!"
For this insurrection Lucifer and followers cast out (part of the whole point was that we and they couldn't stay home forever, but had to move on after all -- in some sense were were all to be "cast out")

Part II:
Adam and Eve placed on newly created world
They receive instruction (and two commandments) and told to get acclimated to the new world and that further instruction was coming
Lucifer intervenes before the promised further instruction and persuades Adam and Eve to initiate the Fall before they were properly prepared
For this sabotage Lucifer becomes Satan and has his travel rights revoked (bound to this world, to eat the dust of this world only)
Adam and Eve leave garden; history proceeds

[Calm]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

That has puzzled me for a long time.  I do agree that Satan wasn't actually necessary for the Plan of Salvation, I did work up a solution to this.  Satan wanted more people to follow him (or be as miserable as him).  If he left Adam and Eve there, he wouldn't be able to get access to the other 2 parts in heaven (since they couldn't be born).  If he was successful in corrupting Christ (as I don't believe in perfect foreknowledge and so Christ could have messed up and frustrated the Plan of Salvation), then he gets all of those in heaven.  But even without corrupting Christ, he gets a chance to have more under him.  So, his hubris (which was his original downfall) led him to take that chance.

That is the solution to this argument I have heard before, he didn’t just want to stop the Plan from being fulfilled, he was too invested in corrupting and pulling down others and wouldn’t have the chance otherwise.

I am kind of surprised NoFear hadn’t heard the “why didn’t Satan just sit on his hands and keep his mouth shut” argument.  I heard it back in seminary, iirc.  If not at least in college.  I thought it was a common part of the conversation.

That can be answered by the possibility God had a variation where he would give the necessary knowledge for procreation eventually (since this is all speculation anyway).

[Nofear]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am kind of surprised Nofear hadn’t heard the “why didn’t Satan just sit on his hands and keep his mouth shut” argument.  I heard it back in seminary, iirc.  If not at least in college.  I thought it was a common part of the conversation.

[The Nehor]

Pointing out that the serpent in the Garden of Eden wasn’t presented as some kind of supernatural entity deeply opposed to God. It was just a talking serpent.

It wasn’t until sometime in the 3rd to 5th centuries CE that we see the idea of Satan being involved in the Eden narrative showing up. In the earliest texts they say Satan sent the serpent. Later somehow the serpent just became Satan.

So no one thought you needed a powerful supernatural entity opposed to God in order for the story of Eden to work in Judaism and it came much later into Christianity.

[mbh26]

8 hours ago, Nofear said:

Grant Arnold wrote an article: War a Good Warfare Understanding Agency in the Plan of Salvation (https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2001&context=re, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp47GOvBSBI). The Keystone youtube video adds some details only mentioned briefly in the article.

Makes many of the arguments that I have made in the past on this board about the non-necessity of a Satan to the Plan of Salvation. But he added a new one that I think I'll add to my personal arguments. Assume the position that 1) A Satan is necessary for the Plan to tempt Adam and Eve and 2) that Satan wants to frustrate God's plans. If 1) and 2) than 3) the smart thing for Satan to really destroy God's plan is to not tempt Adam and Eve (or barring that, just sit out the rest of the earth's history and not be the negative influence). I think Arnold has a good point.  

 

I've heard opinions that there is no Satan on other planets in the Multiverse.  These planets also never had Jesus Christ come to their planet as we did on earth.  They have to take it on faith, seemingly even more than we do.  "I'm doing that which has been done on other worlds," IMO refers to these other planets.  They had their own Adam and Eve.  They had a fall.  But they don't have numerous evil spirits trying to influence their thinking at every turn.  All I can say is that even though we all follow our own unique path, God has a plan for all of us to return home and become like Him.  That's my belief.  Don't ask me to tell you how that happens exactly.  Some have opined that in future iterations of the plan of Salvation, there will be no Satan.  It's just caused too much misery.  It can't be allowed.  

[Nofear]

There is definitely the one Christ for all worlds or the a Christ for each world theories. I haven't heard so much the much this is the only world needing a Christ idea. Doesn't quite jive with my understanding of the Atonement, but I can see how some scriptural language could be interpreted that way. /shrug

[Pyreaux]

Elementary my dear Nofear, if he knew the consequences, he would still have reasons to do it anyway.

2 Nephi 2:17–18 after Satan fell from heaven, "he sought also the misery of all mankind."

He can't spread misery by letting Adam and Eve remain in a paradisical Garden forever. 

Moses 4:4, Satan became the "father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will."

The Fall also gives him immediate power and control and dominion over spirits that he didn't have before.

However, it seems "smart" is not the nature of the Beast.

Doctrine and Covenants 129:8–9 "If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him."

An evil spirit is bound by its own desire to deceive, even when it traps him.

Moses 4:6 explicitly states, "And he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

Again, a part of his nature is he is not very intelligent. He didn't fully comprehend how God's plan worked.

Edited yesterday at 01:06 AM by Pyreaux

[bluebell]

I think we give Satan too much credit for his ability to reason.

In my experience, very intelligent reasonable people often do incredibly stupid and destructive things (to themselves and other people) because their hatred and anger override everything else.
 

Unbridled hatred and anger turn even the smartest most reasonable person into an idiot.

Edited yesterday at 04:48 AM by bluebell

[The Nehor]

Assuming he is real Satan believes what he wants to believe in the same way any ideological demagogue does. His words are pleasing to many because they like being lied to. The devil doesn’t trick anyone who hasn’t already lied to themselves.

Many who think they worship a good God really worship a devil. They are just picking the biggest bully. They just happen to think it is God.

[california boy]

How does fossil records showing humans living millennials and their deaths before the time of Adam make any of this speculation work?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

How does fossil records showing humans living millennials and their deaths before the time of Adam make any of this speculation work?

Such a fun topic!  There is a series on the Church History Matters podcast that goes through all the iterations of LDS thoughts and beliefs on that subject over its history, and outlines different apostles and prophets ideas and beliefs on the subject.  I love history and found the entire series fascinating!  But my biggest take away is that there have been leaders who were pro-evolution and death before the fall and pre-adamites and leaders that believed that evolution was a 'damnable heresy' and both existed at the same time in the same quorum sometimes because of a difference in how they each interpreted scripture.

So I think that's the answer to your question.  With those topics where there has not been a revealed explanation, it all comes down to how someone interprets scripture through their personal ideas of reason and faith.

(if anyone wants a link to the podcast just let me know.  It has a great series on women and the priesthood and also one on the church and politics/slavery)

Edited 19 hours ago by bluebell

[Pyreaux]

12 hours ago, california boy said:

How does fossil records showing humans living millennials and their deaths before the time of Adam make any of this speculation work?

By not assuming Genesis is a modern textbook. It wasn't, it was an ancient apocalyptic temple text. The Six-Day Creation is thought to be the six-day long vision Moses had when he was on the mountain before the Lord spoke to him on the seventh (Exodus 24:16) and told hm to construct the tabernacle after the manner he was shown on the mountain.

Day One - Light, first you assemble The Holy of Holies, Day Two - The Firmament, put up the Veil. Day Three - Dry Land, Seas, and Plants, set up the water lavers and the Table of Showbread. Day Four - Seven Great Lights, set up The Menorah. Day Five/Six - Animals, set up The Altar of Sacrifice and the outer court. Day Six - Man in the Image of God, dress the High Priest in sacred vestments. Day Seven - God rests, the priest atones as a proxy for God.

Genesis fits the pattern of an Apocalyptic vision. "Adam" seems likely to be an archetypal figure rather than a strict proper name. A "man" is a known code for a presiding High Priest. Signs suggests is in a rural temple east of Eden. Which is why, Genesis itself strongly hints at other humans existing outside the Garden (Gen 4:14–15; 17). Eden is not the world but one of four countries (Gen 2:11) 

In ancient Near Eastern Apocalyptic code, "beasts" frequently represent humans, foreign nations/kings, nation deities (demons), or un-covenanted mortals, while "men" or "angels" represent divine messengers, transfigured men, patriarchs, high priests or gods. The Serpent (nachash) can mean serpent, but as a verb means to cast spells, or whisper secrets, as an adjective means "shining one". Could be a fallen spiritual entity or lesser/other priest/power. It fits the standard apocalyptic convention of using animal imagery to describe spiritual and political order. Adam's creation represents the inauguration of a new priestly class, a king crowned at a specific moment in a kingdom that already existed, Adam was set apart to initiate a spiritual epoch, not to originate the species.

Beasts - a ram with two horns = the two kings of Media; the ten-horned dragon = the ten Roman rulers; the lamb with seven eyes = human Jesus.

Men - the man Gabriel = the angel Gabiel; the Son of Man = Son of God; Enoch's 70 shepherds = the 70 elohim of the nations.

Beasts become men, is men become gods - in Enoch, Noah was a white bull who became a man when he was told a secret = Noah transfigured and walked with God; Moses was a white sheep who became a man on Mount Sinai = Moses was transfigured on Mount Sinai.

Edited 7 hours ago by Pyreaux