Troubling Allegations Against Former Sheriff in Pinal County, AZ (Church mbr)

[Vanguard]

 I haven't yet heard a good enough argument for why men should not be categorically viewed in the ways we have been discussing. I agree all women should show some degree of being 'consciously cautious' when around men for 2 reasons - 1) generally speaking, men are physically stronger than women are; and 2) an unacceptably high number of men demonstrate a proclivity for using that strength to their own advantage and to the great detriment of women's' well-being. I can't imagine I would be any different if I were in a woman's shoes. I do, however, believe it is better viewed that 'women should always be aware and vigilant of their surroundings when around the opposite sex' rather than 'women should view all men as potential rapists'. The latter phraseology seems overwrought and not helpful in the way intended. The vast majority of women are also murdered at the hands of men though I don't think anyone is advocating women should therefore view all men as potential murderers?

Edited June 4 by Vanguard

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

 I haven't yet heard a good enough argument for why men should not be categorically viewed in the ways we have been discussing. I agree all women should show some degree of being 'consciously cautious' when around men for 2 reasons - 1) generally speaking, men are physically stronger than women are; and 2) an unacceptably high number of men demonstrate a proclivity for using that strength to their own advantage and to the great detriment of women's' well-being. I can't imagine I would be any different if I were in a woman's shoes. I do, however, believe it is better viewed that 'women should always be aware and vigilant of their surroundings when around the opposite sex' rather than 'women should view all men as potential rapists'. The latter phraseology seems overwrought and not helpful in the way intended. The vast majority of women are also murdered at the hands of men though I don't think anyone is advocating women should therefore view all men as potential murderers?

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

'women should always be aware and vigilant of their surroundings when around the opposite sex' rather than 'women should view all men as potential rapists'.

Which do you think young women are more likely to pay attention enough to change their own behaviour to safer practices?

Serious question as very curious about others’ experiences.

Edited June 4 by Calm

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Vanguard said:

The vast majority of women are also murdered at the hands of men though I don't think anyone is advocating women should therefore view all men as potential murderers?

It goes without saying that when a woman says something to the effect of “all men are potential rapists“ the “and also potential murderers” part is assumed.

So is stuff like “all men are potential stalkers“ and“ all men are potential abusive spouses“ and “all men are potential kidnappers” and “all men are potential sexual molesters“. Etc, etc.

Because when a woman says “all men are potential rapists“ it’s just shorthand for “all men are potentially dangerous”.

So any way that a man could be dangerous to a woman, just assume from now on that that is included in the anxiety that drives the sentiment.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

It goes without saying that when a woman says something to the effect of “all men are potential rapists“ the “and also potential murderers” part is assumed.

With my brain these days, the ending often doesn’t sink in until the second time I read the post because I am already too focused on something said earlier.  And I missed this and shouldn’t have.

Vanguard, this is not me wanting to attack you and I hope it doesn’t come across that way.  Bluebell is right in this phrase is shorthand covering the spectrum of sexual and other forms of physical violence too many  (but thankfully not a majority) men perpetuate on others (rape and certainly other forms of violence are not limited to women).

If you didn’t realize this—and from your argument for why it made less sense to use “potential rapists” you are not that informed about how many women think and view the world.  I highly suggest familiarizing yourself with more women’s POV, especially those who don’t know you and who are writing or speaking generally if you want to make public judgments about how women think and should think like you just did.

Being blunt here because this saddens me, but I also feel kind of insulted that you feel comfortable enough to tell us how we should speak about our feelings when you don’t know them very well even after reading what we have discussed on this thread about our experiences in a variety of situations as well as referred to others’ experiences in even more. We weren’t just talking about the experience of rape.  It seems odd to me you assumed that was how the statement was being used when you had explanations that it was meant to alert women to be cautious in any situation until she knew she didn’t need to be.

 You expressing it wasn’t appropriate and we should alter how we warn and support each other would be like a friend telling you to go work for some guy who cheated and lied about you with your friend saying he is not a bad guy and it would be good for you right after you had told him the guy stole your life savings and told the police you tried to steal from him causing them to arrest you. 

This analogy is meant to be narrowly applied and is not intended in the least to suggest that any woman feels like every man is a liar and a cheat just in case someone is tempted to take it that way.  It’s about being given advice by someone who didn’t listen very well or hasn’t yet processed what they read yet and you are not the only one on the thread doing this…and all of you are well meaning and interested in helping, I have no doubt.

Quote

The latter phraseology seems overwrought and not helpful in the way intended.

Have you been in a room with women, especially young women, when the speaker says this in order to get the listeners to pay attention and start recognizing they need to be careful around every man until they actually know better and not trust first until proven wrong?

It certainly penetrated my brain deeper when I heard it and helped me recognize I was still being dismissive about my own concerns and experiences, treating them as if they were just humorous pranks played on me with me feeling guilty I didn’t allow myself to be around these guys after it occurred.  I was even ashamed I resorted to telling one of them my dad wouldn’t let me date him because I didn’t want to be pressured by him any more (we were in high school).  I realized once I started participating in discussions that included the warning “potential rapist” that it was actually quite smart that I distanced myself from them and in the one case (the one who disable the car) brought up my dad being involved and how mad he would be if I told my dad this guy had fooled around with the car.

And I had already heard for decades and practiced to some extent eventually basic situational awareness and preparation…with strangers in empty or isolated spaces.  I see it as very useful in the right context.

Not saying it was all I needed to hear or that it was the best help I ever got, but it did jar loose some stuck attitudes and ideas in my head that I hadn’t really challenged even though given what happened to me, I can’t imagine why I didn’t…the only thing I can think of was it was leftover ideas from the arrogance of my youth when I thought I was knowledgable enough my self analyzing was spot on.  I hadn’t learned yet everyone has trouble seeing their own issues even with training.

Edited June 4 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 6/1/2026 at 2:13 PM, smac97 said:

If "all men are potential rapists" is intended as mere rhetorical hyperbole, intended to garner attention rather than be construed literally, and if "treat all {men when in vulnerable circumstances} as a potential threat" is a more apt construction of the intended (and apparently agreed-upon) sentiment, then I think we agree far more than we disagree. 

It is not rhetorical hyperbole.

On 6/1/2026 at 2:13 PM, smac97 said:

I continue to have concern about the hyperbole having the unintended effect of demoralizing and alienating young men.  I also continue to have concern about the hyperbole unintentionally creating an unhealthy environment for women.  

Why do you seem to be worried more about the idea that men might feel bad when they find out men as a category are responsible for the overwhelming majority of cases of sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape over and above the victims of those acts? Men should take that reality seriously and act to change it. If a man’s response is to get huffy and offended they really don’t sound like they possess much in the way of virtue or empathy at all.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Vanguard said:

 I haven't yet heard a good enough argument for why men should not be categorically viewed in the ways we have been discussing. I agree all women should show some degree of being 'consciously cautious' when around men for 2 reasons - 1) generally speaking, men are physically stronger than women are; and 2) an unacceptably high number of men demonstrate a proclivity for using that strength to their own advantage and to the great detriment of women's' well-being. I can't imagine I would be any different if I were in a woman's shoes. I do, however, believe it is better viewed that 'women should always be aware and vigilant of their surroundings when around the opposite sex' rather than 'women should view all men as potential rapists'. The latter phraseology seems overwrought and not helpful in the way intended. The vast majority of women are also murdered at the hands of men though I don't think anyone is advocating women should therefore view all men as potential murderers?

No, they often have to view them as potentially dangerous in terms of regular physical assault and murder too. It is kind of lumped together.

[MustardSeed]

10 hours ago, Vanguard said:

The vast majority of women are also murdered at the hands of men though I don't think anyone is advocating women should therefore view all men as potential murderers?

My attacker told the judge his intention was to rape me, murder me and leave me in the river. 

I’m wondering if there’s a misunderstanding here - 

personally, I don’t have concerns that every man has latent within him a quiet rapist who could potentially surface.  
 

Rather  what I’m saying is that without any reassurance of safety, I have to protect myself from every man via being on alert  because I could get seriously  hurt.  I  have less power than most men and I can’t discern my level of safety without more information, and That Takes Time.  Even then, sometimes, that’s not enough.  
 

“Every man is a potential rapist” can be  interpreted both ways.  I certainly don’t mean the first.  
 

(maybe the first has some elements of truth in that we are all capable of evil but in my mind  that’s beyond the scope of this conversation and can definitely see how upsetting that could be to hear, more so than the second .) 

 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

My attacker told the judge his intention was to rape me, murder me and leave me in the river. 

I’m wondering if there’s a misunderstanding here - 

personally, I don’t have concerns that every man has latent within him a quiet rapist who could potentially surface.  
 

Rather  what I’m saying is that without any reassurance of safety, I have to protect myself from every man via being on alert  because I could get seriously  hurt.  I  have less power than most men and I can’t discern my level of safety without more information, and That Takes Time.  Even then, sometimes, that’s not enough.  
 

“Every man is a potential rapist” can be  interpreted both ways.  I certainly don’t mean the first.  
 

(maybe the first has some elements of truth in that we are all capable of evil but in my mind  that’s beyond the scope of this conversation and can definitely see how upsetting that could be to hear, more so than the second .) 

 

That's a good distinction that some on here might not have realized or wanted to consider:  we are not saying that every man has a rapist inside of him that he could decide to let out at any minute. We aren't saying that men's natures are evil and that's why they can't be trusted.

[Tony uk]

I have noticed at time some women, have a dislike of people walking behind them. In certain cases men. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Men should take that reality seriously and act to change it. If a man’s response is to get huffy and offended they really don’t sound like they possess much in the way of virtue or empathy at all.

Lacking in empathy, yes.  Wouldn’t say the same thing about virtue.  I have known men that were lacking in empathy, saw the world in pretty much one way or at least talked that way, so impossible to know if they understood others’ experiences as others did, but they were also among the most generous, kind people I knew, devoting much of their lives and resources to helping others….sometimes very effectively, others not so much since they didn’t understand what the real need was.

My guesses….One of these men would likely get huffy and offended by this discussion, the other would just blow it off as not relating to him unless he was in a mood to mindpick.

[bluebell]

I know this topic has run its course but this quote popped up on my facebook feed and I really wanted to document it on the board.  

"Today I heard a man explain to his friend why "not all men" is wrong.  He said the first thing you learn in gun safety is to treat every single gun as if it's loaded, even if you think it's probably not, for everyone's safety.  And that is how women have learned to treat men."

[Danzo]

On 6/13/2026 at 12:36 PM, bluebell said:

I know this topic has run its course but this quote popped up on my facebook feed and I really wanted to document it on the board.  

"Today I heard a man explain to his friend why "not all men" is wrong.  He said the first thing you learn in gun safety is to treat every single gun as if it's loaded, even if you think it's probably not, for everyone's safety.  And that is how women have learned to treat men."

I think the difference is that guns are things, not people.

One could go through life treating everyone they don't know as a potential enemy (or everyone of a certain gender, or age or race or whatever), but I am not sure that is healthy.  There is a big chance that the mental health damage over time might exceed the physical safety,

I think too many people spend their lives in fear of their neighbors. 

 

 

 

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Danzo said:

I think the difference is that guns are things, not people.

One could go through life treating everyone they don't know as a potential enemy (or everyone of a certain gender, or age or race or whatever), but I am not sure that is healthy.  There is a big chance that the mental health damage over time might exceed the physical safety,

I think too many people spend their lives in fear of their neighbors. 

 

 

 

I have a family member in the hospital. Obviously, this is hard on my mental health. I'm grateful that instead of the hospital staff saying, "it's not healthy to worry" they are saying, "we know you are worried. Go home and get a good night's rest. We'll take care of them while you sleep.  We've got this."

It's a given that it is not healthy for women to be worried about the men around her.  I'm really frustrated that now the extra burden of stop being mentally unhealthy is being put on us.  I would love it if men said instead, "we know this worries you. We're ready to help make things safe for you so you can rest. We've got this." 

Because as long as women are not safe and cannot tell who is safe they are in a mentally unhealthy situation. 

I know the harder thing is to fix the safety situation and I in no way claim to have the answers, but it would be good to question what can be done about the patient/safety issue instead of telling women/family members to quit worrying because it is unhealthy. 

 

Edited June 16 by Rain

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

I have a family member in the hospital. Obviously, this is hard on my mental health. I'm grateful that instead of the hospital staff saying, "it's not healthy to worry" they are saying, "we know you are worried. Go home and get a good night's rest. We'll take care of them while you sleep.  We've got this."

Worrying about something what is actually happening is healthy, worrying about what might happen sometime, somewhere, isn't really healthy, it's called anxiety, but I really can't fix that for you. 

I can't stop you from worrying about me.  Nothing I can do or say here on this forum will stop you from worrying about what I might do to you. 

You are correct,  I could be dangerous to you.  I, as well as almost every other human being around you have the capability of inflicting damage.

The world is a dangerous place.  It is also a wonderful place, full of wonderful people and meaningful relationships, full of beauty, love and friendship.    If we ever meet, I would hope you would see me as a potential friend, rather than a threat.  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I think the difference is that guns are things, not people.

One could go through life treating everyone they don't know as a potential enemy (or everyone of a certain gender, or age or race or whatever), but I am not sure that is healthy.  There is a big chance that the mental health damage over time might exceed the physical safety,

I think too many people spend their lives in fear of their neighbors. 

Considering the psychological downsides of sexual assault and rape I am not convinced that this tradeoff is worth it.

Also I would suggest that we instead change our culture to mitigate and hopefully remove that threat so women don’t have to live their lives so defensively.

21 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Worrying about something what is actually happening is healthy, worrying about what might happen sometime, somewhere, isn't really healthy, it's called anxiety, but I really can't fix that for you. 

I can't stop you from worrying about me.  Nothing I can do or say here on this forum will stop you from worrying about what I might do to you. 

You are correct,  I could be dangerous to you.  I, as well as almost every other human being around you have the capability of inflicting damage.

The world is a dangerous place.  It is also a wonderful place, full of wonderful people and meaningful relationships, full of beauty, love and friendship.    If we ever meet, I would hope you would see me as a potential friend, rather than a threat.  

This sounds aspirational but really it is telling the potential (and actual) victims that it is just best not to think about it.

That sounds nice until you are abused and then a bunch of guys will come up with reasons for why you (at least partially) deserved it or how you could have avoided it. I have seen this advice given in the past by some people who in this very thread have posted that this kind of anxiety isn’t good for women’s mental health. Pick a lane.

Also, how about we work to create a society where the whole thing isn’t necessary? I get very tired of the complacency of people who think things can’t be improved or that it is some massive imposition on them personally if someone tries to improve things.

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

This sounds aspirational but really it is telling the potential (and actual) victims that it is just best not to think about it.

 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

That sounds nice until you are abused and then a bunch of guys will come up with reasons for why you (at least partially) deserved it or how you could have avoided it. I have seen this advice given in the past by some people who in this very thread have posted that this kind of anxiety isn’t good for women’s mental health. Pick a lane.

It is really annoying when people on the internet tell you what you are really saying.  Somehow you become a expert on what I am trying to say.

This is why it is really difficult to have these conversations on the internet.  Its not about what I am saying, it is what I am really saying.  

Oh well.

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

Worrying about something what is actually happening is healthy, worrying about what might happen sometime, somewhere, isn't really healthy, it's called anxiety, but I really can't fix that for you. 

Or it can help you prepare for the possibility of it occurring and therefore increase one’s chances to prevent or lower damage (which does not mean a victim blew it by not preparing enough, sometimes there are no options that allow one to avoid the abuse because another human is involved who can act to negate preparation).

Edited June 15 by Calm

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

Worrying about something what is actually happening is healthy, worrying about what might happen sometime, somewhere, isn't really healthy, it's called anxiety, but I really can't fix that for you. 

I can't stop you from worrying about me.  Nothing I can do or say here on this forum will stop you from worrying about what I might do to you. 

You are correct,  I could be dangerous to you.  I, as well as almost every other human being around you have the capability of inflicting damage.

The world is a dangerous place.  It is also a wonderful place, full of wonderful people and meaningful relationships, full of beauty, love and friendship.    If we ever meet, I would hope you would see me as a potential friend, rather than a threat.  

It's not a matter of seeing you as a potential friend, rather than a threat. It's not like women are usually choosing between the two and you are a threat. It's about seeing you as BOTH a potential friend and a potential threat. 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Danzo said:

Worrying about something what is actually happening is healthy, worrying about what might happen sometime, somewhere, isn't really healthy, it's called anxiety, but I really can't fix that for you. 

I can't stop you from worrying about me.  Nothing I can do or say here on this forum will stop you from worrying about what I might do to you. 

You are correct,  I could be dangerous to you.  I, as well as almost every other human being around you have the capability of inflicting damage.

The world is a dangerous place.  It is also a wonderful place, full of wonderful people and meaningful relationships, full of beauty, love and friendship.    If we ever meet, I would hope you would see me as a potential friend, rather than a threat.  

Rain said everything so perfectly that I don’t have much to add.

But I did want to ask, have you been following this thread? It’s a sincere question and I’m not trying to be snarky. Because the reason that we worry about this kind of stuff is because we’ve actually had it happen to us or people that we know in real life. This is not an abstract problem. We worry about our safety because of actual real life experiences. Multiple experiences.

Women have shared these experiences on this thread.

Do you know what it sounds like when a man tells a woman that it’s not healthy for her to worry about her safety around men, when he’s saying that to a woman who has herself been assaulted by a male stranger in broad daylight? Or a woman who has a close family member who was raped by a personal friend that she knew for years?

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Because the reason that we worry about this kind of stuff is because we’ve actually had it happen to us or people that we know in real life. This is not an abstract problem. We worry about our safety because of actual real life experiences. Multiple experiences.

To me it’s like saying it’s unhealthy to worry about getting sick ,so why buy health insurance or exercise and eat right?  Or why worry about losing your job, don’t bother with savings and food storage for “just in case”.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

To me it’s like saying it’s unhealthy to worry about getting sick ,so why buy health insurance or exercise and eat right?  Or why worry about losing your job, don’t bother with savings and food storage for “just in case”.

To me it’s like telling someone who’s been stung by a bee and almost died not to worry about bees or carrying an epi-pen because the anxiety isn’t healthy for their mental health. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

To me it’s like telling someone who’s been stung by a bee and almost died not to worry about bees or carrying an epi-pen because the anxiety isn’t healthy for their mental health. 

That is a good analogy.  Bees are generally beneficial, after all. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Danzo said:

It is really annoying when people on the internet tell you what you are really saying.  Somehow you become a expert on what I am trying to say.

This is why it is really difficult to have these conversations on the internet.  Its not about what I am saying, it is what I am really saying.  

Oh well.

No, it is really difficult because this kind of “I’m personally hurt” response when women or other marginalized groups try to communicate is the norm. It is why many give up on trying to communicate. There are defense mechanisms in place to prevent having to rethink things that come way too close to someone’s identity.

 

[Danzo]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Rain said everything so perfectly that I don’t have much to add.

But I did want to ask, have you been following this thread? It’s a sincere question and I’m not trying to be snarky. Because the reason that we worry about this kind of stuff is because we’ve actually had it happen to us or people that we know in real life. This is not an abstract problem. We worry about our safety because of actual real life experiences. Multiple experiences.

Women have shared these experiences on this thread.

Do you know what it sounds like when a man tells a woman that it’s not healthy for her to worry about her safety around men, when he’s saying that to a woman who has herself been assaulted by a male stranger in broad daylight? Or a woman who has a close family member who was raped by a personal friend that she knew for years?

I have been following this thread.  I don't doubt those experiences.  I have known people who have had those experiences and worse.  I have assisted in the process of turning abusers into law enforcement.  I am married to a woman who experienced traumatic sexual abuse as a child. People can and do do bad things to each other, really bad things. Things that do lasting damage.

In no way am I trying to minimize those experiences.

I was trying to point out the damage that can occur when people turn to absolutes (Every  ___ is a _____).   

Also, there is real harm in visualizing every one you meet (or a significant subset) as a threat or a predator.  I just spent last Sunday at the emergency room with a woman I minister to who was suffering from an episode of mental illness, caused in part by her belief that everyone was out to get her.   Fortunately she is receiving the help she needed, but there was a huge amount of pain and suffering that was experienced by this woman's husband and children.  Due to me and my wife's family history, we, unfortunately have had quite a bit of lived experience dealing with mental health problems.  The reason we were able to help this sister was because of this experience (the husband had no Idea what to do).

There are many situations, when dealing with men (and women) where caution is healthy and well advised.   

Anxiety disorders are also real, and it can be unhealthy to ruminate on over fears of potential harm from others.

I wasn't trying to dismiss anyone, or victim blame or minimize anyone's experiences, I just wanted to point out that visualizing every male as a predator can be bad mental hygene.

I was a bit surprised that what I thought was helpful was taken as somehow supporting abuse and being dismissive of peoples concerns.  I seems I am not very good at communication.