Merry Christmas and Cheers to the Fall of Mormon Stories

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Good morning: Methinks neither parable has to do with Christians proselytizing or criticizing other Christians. A movement from being a non-LDS Christian to an LDS Christian is a migration within the same tribe, not a conversion. Ditto for the reverse. Ditto also for criticism either way. Of course I fully acknowledge this is my perspective and belief, and hence, my truth. I don't expect it to be yours. Have a good day, Navidad

To me your suggestion implied that because we are hemorrhaging members (lie) that we should leave off missionary work and concentrate on not losing/getting back members.

Those two parables speak of gathering as many as possible (missionary work) and a sifting (falling away). Just because people are sifting doesn't mean we stop harvesting.

[Navidad]

24 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

To me your suggestion implied that because we are hemorrhaging members (lie) that we should leave off missionary work and concentrate on not losing/getting back members.

Those two parables speak of gathering as many as possible (missionary work) and a sifting (falling away). Just because people are sifting doesn't mean we stop harvesting.

Well, I am, in truth (my truth), not a fan of missionary work to other Christians by any Christian group. It seems from the direction of posts in this forum of late that there is indeed some concentration on exmos, as some call them. I would rather have exmos return to their own church than migrate over to mine. If indeed they are angry, then they need to heal, not to bring their anger somewhere else. I am not certain that "harvesting" Christian souls into another Christian community is indeed pleasing to Christ. Migration between Christian groups is common and is fine with me as long as it is a joyous and voluntary thing due to changes in preferences, styles of worship, emphasis of teachings, or even new and exciting doctrines. I think most of my LDS friends see any movement out of the LDS church as a bad thing for whatever reason. There are many things about the Mennonite church that aren't for everyone. Ditto for just about every church group on earth, including the LDS. Perhaps you would take a try and explaining the second half of D&C 1:30 to me . . . The author makes a clear distinction between the collective church to which He is speaking and the individual church to which He is apparently not speaking. Isn't it a reasonable interpretation to see the collective church as the broad community of Christians with which Christ is well-pleased? I know that sets up a conflict with the First Vision and D&C 1:30, but it wouldn't be the first time religious teachings within the same tradition contradict themselves. 

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Perhaps you would take a try and explaining the second half of D&C 1:30 to me . . . The author makes a clear distinction between the collective church to which He is speaking and the individual church to which He is apparently not speaking

I believe the normal interpretation of D&C 1:30 is that when it says "not individually" that is talking about individual people, not individual churches.  I don't think the entire verse makes any sense if it is talking about other churches that don't accept Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon.  He talks about laying the foundation of the church (so a new church, not a previous one) and it being the "only true and living church".  So not sure how another church that already existed would be referenced at the end.

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Well, I am, in truth (my truth), not a fan of missionary work to other Christians by any Christian group. It seems from the direction of posts in this forum of late that there is indeed some concentration on exmos, as some call them. I would rather have exmos return to their own church than migrate over to mine. If indeed they are angry, then they need to heal, not to bring their anger somewhere else.

Tag you're it.

All kidding aside, we have a program in the Church (Ministering) that if actually done by members is a tool for helping members become active again

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am not certain that "harvesting" Christian souls into another Christian community is indeed pleasing to Christ. Migration between Christian groups is common and is fine with me as long as it is a joyous and voluntary thing due to changes in preferences, styles of worship, emphasis of teachings, or even new and exciting doctrines. I think most of my LDS friends see any movement out of the LDS church as a bad thing for whatever reason. There are many things about the Mennonite church that aren't for everyone. Ditto for just about every church group on earth, including the LDS.

It is when you make comments like these that I wonder if you truly understand the truth claims of the Restored Gospel and Church.

We don't see ourselves as just another legitimate option among many. We are the Church of Christ restored to the Earth and the only Church with authority to administer to ordinances of the Gospel and Apostles and Prophets to establish doctrine and implement the Lord's program. Thus we feel obligated to offer everyone (non-Christian or Christian) to opportunity to come into the covenant that the Lord has reestablished  in these Last Days.

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Perhaps you would take a try and explaining the second half of D&C 1:30 to me . . . The author makes a clear distinction between the collective church to which He is speaking and the individual church to which He is apparently not speaking. Isn't it a reasonable interpretation to see the collective church as the broad community of Christians with which Christ is well-pleased? I know that sets up a conflict with the First Vision and D&C 1:30, but it wouldn't be the first time religious teachings within the same tradition contradict themselves. 

That verse is referring to individual members of the Church and the Church as a whole.

But, being the awesome guy that I am, I will give you a better verse of the Doctrine and Covenants to use when trying to make this point:

Doctrine and Covenants 10:52-55

And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people. Behold, I do not bring it to destroy that which they have received, but to build it up.

And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.

Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church;

Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Pyreaux]

On 12/21/2025 at 4:55 PM, sunstoned said:

Reality check: There are many more ex-Mormons than there are active Mormons in the world.  This is the reason that John Delin and others like RFM, who support a transparent view of Mormonism, are extremely popular.  People who come from an LDS background and identify as cultural Mormons need an online community. 

Reality Check: Inactive =/= ExMormon

The Church reports roughly 17.2 million members. Independent sociological estimates think there are about 5–7 million active members and 10–12 million "inactive" members. Most people who stop attending never become "Ex-Mormon", or join Reddit or listen to John Dehlin. Many are even still identifying as LDS on a census, believe the core tenets but struggle with attendance or the lifestyle, or have simply drifted away without any animosity or will even comeback later.

Based on the latest data we lose 0.5% of members a year. Like in 2024, there was roughly 146,000 people removed from records, that is including deaths, excommunications, and resignations. Since the global crude death rate accounts for roughly 80,000–100,000 of that number, formal resignations likely fall between 40,000 and 60,000 per year. So maybe 0.3% Ex-Mormons are made from the membership pool per year. 

If we look at the record-breaking 308,682 convert baptisms from 2024, if Convert Retention at its worst is 20%, guessing 240,000 of those new converts will likely be inactive by this time next year. Now these people are not "Ex-Mormons"; what most of them will in fact be people in Africa, the Philippines, or Brazil who really liked the missionaries but didn't make the lifestyle change. They aren't listening to podcasts or "deconstructing" their past heroes or upbrings, they just went back to their old lives. So, for every one person who Resigns, twice as many Converts are Retained every year. That is without including the Birthright Retention which is 54% (according to Pew 2024/2025). More than half of those raised LDS stay LDS.

According to sociological data on religious "switching", there is thought to be a "Return Ratio" of roughly 37%, people who disaffiliate or stop identifying as members eventually return to active participation later in life. They call it The "Prodigal" Effect, often happens during a major life milestones. Like marriage, having children, or the death of a parent.

This "Ex-Mormon" community is so high churn because people "graduate" from being angry and realize they miss a real community. Your identity is a reactive identity. People eventually move on once they’ve processed their anger. Without a shared theology or positive goal, that community will turn on itself.

[sunstoned]

9 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Reality Check: Inactive =/= ExMormon

The Church reports roughly 17.2 million members. Independent sociological estimates think there are about 5–7 million active members and 10–12 million "inactive" members. Most people who stop attending never become "Ex-Mormon", or join Reddit or listen to John Dehlin. Many are even still identifying as LDS on a census, believe the core tenets but struggle with attendance or the lifestyle, or have simply drifted away without any animosity or will even comeback later.

Based on the latest data we lose 0.5% of members a year. Like in 2024, there was roughly 146,000 people removed from records, that is including deaths, excommunications, and resignations. Since the global crude death rate accounts for roughly 80,000–100,000 of that number, formal resignations likely fall between 40,000 and 60,000 per year. So maybe 0.3% Ex-Mormons are made from the membership pool per year. 

If we look at the record-breaking 308,682 convert baptisms from 2024, if Convert Retention at its worst is 20%, guessing 240,000 of those new converts will likely be inactive by this time next year. Now these people are not "Ex-Mormons"; what most of them will in fact be people in Africa, the Philippines, or Brazil who really liked the missionaries but didn't make the lifestyle change. They aren't listening to podcasts or "deconstructing" their past heroes or upbrings, they just went back to their old lives. So, for every one person who Resigns, twice as many Converts are Retained every year. That is without including the Birthright Retention which is 54% (according to Pew 2024/2025). More than half of those raised LDS stay LDS.

According to sociological data on religious "switching", there is thought to be a "Return Ratio" of roughly 37%, people who disaffiliate or stop identifying as members eventually return to active participation later in life. They call it The "Prodigal" Effect, often happens during a major life milestones. Like marriage, having children, or the death of a parent.

This "Ex-Mormon" community is so high churn because people "graduate" from being angry and realize they miss a real community. Your identity is a reactive identity. People eventually move on once they’ve processed their anger. Without a shared theology or positive goal, that community will turn on itself.

 

Do you have a reference for this latest data?

[sunstoned]

11 hours ago, JVW said:

CFR please

I would refer you to the mormonstories web site (For some reason it will not let me paste the link).  It shows 195,000 followers.

[sunstoned]

16 hours ago, Navidad said:

Fascinating. . . Is it a fact that there are "many more ex-Mormons than there are active Mormons in the world"? If so, then it is about time that the Saints back off on we non-Mormons and focus on their internal losses and divisions! Oh, and I would say the same thing to non-LDS Christianity in relation to its own splits and losses. Any data on how many ex-Mormons exist?

The Church doesn't release official activity rates, studies suggest activity varies: around 30-40% weekly in the U.S. and 20-35% globally, with higher rates in "Mormon Corridor" areas (around 70%) and lower rates in other countries like Latin America or Europe. Activity drops significantly for young adults (around 30% in North America) and converts, with estimates indicating that 60-70% of total members are less active or inactive. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#:~:text=Activity rates and disaffiliation,-See also: Less&text=The LDS Church does not,attend weekly Sunday worship services.

 

https://www.cumorah.com/articles/lawOfTheHarvest/7#:~:text=Member Activity and Convert Retention Rates Today,within a year of conversion.

[sunstoned]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

You can be cynical and still be pro transparency (if you were referring to my reservation about Dehlin and thinking I was wondering about his sincerity as well).  I don’t usually hold being cynical against someone unless that means they close their mind, refuse to allow that other perspectives have value and may even be more informed, etc.  It’s not much fun to engage with anyone who’s close minded.  I like seeing people’s gears in motion.

I agree, and that is why I have given up on RFM.  When his podcasts have increased in popularity, I felt his tone had changed, he was becoming more confrontational rather than engaging in constructive dialogue.  The last time I listened to an RFM podcast was during COVID. From the titles of his recent podcasts, I believe that trend has continued.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, webbles said:

I believe the normal interpretation of D&C 1:30 is that when it says "not individually" that is talking about individual people, not individual churches.  I don't think the entire verse makes any sense if it is talking about other churches that don't accept Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon.  He talks about laying the foundation of the church (so a new church, not a previous one) and it being the "only true and living church".  So not sure how another church that already existed would be referenced at the end.

I have never heard of it as referencing individual churches.  I think one would need to hold a worldview or be familiar with one that all Christian churches are part of a greater Church of Christ to register that possibility.  I don’t know if that was an idea Joseph Smith was exposed to, though the Book of Mormon referring to only two Churches, one of Christ and one of the Devil could be a reference to that idea, but the numbers of the Church of the Lamb of God are few in contrast to the actual membership of all Christian churches.  Most (vast majority) members understand the Church of the Lamb of God in this time period is the Restored Church in my experience and it’s been presented that way in manuals in magazines iirc.

My memory is that part of the narrative about his confusion over which church to join was induced because preachers would speak of cooperating together to bring people to Christ, but then conflict would arise because of attempting to draw converts to their own congregations (and the narrative usually implied for less worthy motives which isn’t necessarily accurate imo).

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

 

Do you have a reference for this latest data?

The "latest data" I mentioned is the 2024 Statistical Report (released in April 2025) and an LDS Church Growth Blog 2024 Statistical Report Analysis is the resource that Matt Martinich used to calculate the 145,912 record removals and analyze retention.

Total Membership: 17,509,781 (up from 17,255,394 in 2023)

Convert Baptisms: 308,682 (A 27-year high)

Children of Record: 91,617

The Church did not explicitly report "resignations," so we calculate it by looking at the gap between the new members added and the net growth.

Expected Growth: 400,299 (New members)

Actual Net Growth: 254,387

The Gap is the total records removed: 145,912

To find the resignation rate, you take that total, subtract the global mortality rate from 145,912.

The Global Death Rate is roughly 7.6 deaths per 1,000 people. For a population of 17.5 million, that is roughly 133,000 expected deaths.

If the Church recorded 90,000–100,000 of those deaths (accounting for those it "loses track of"), the remaining is 46,000 to 56,000 records that represent resignations and excommunications.

The percentage: 55,000 / 17,509,781 = 0.31% 

So, in 2024, for every 1 person who resigned to join the "Ex-Mormon community," the Church added 5 or 6 new members who stay based on even a conservative 20% retention of 308k converts.

Those sociological studies include BYU’s Religious Studies Center that have tracked the "activity life cycle" of members.

Roughly 44% of all active members have gone through a period of prolonged inactivity (months or years) and then resume regular church involvement. If there are 11 million "inactive" members, roughly 4.8 million of them are not "Ex-Mormons" but will statistically return for their child’s baptism or their parent’s funeral or randomly after about 18 months.

There was a 2024 "Re-Engagement" Spike In the latest 2024/2025 growth reports,

Elder Quentin L. Cook talked about efforts to "re-engage" people who were previously taught or involved led to nearly 40,000 baptisms in 2024 alone. 40,000 'prodigals' were re-baptized or re-engaged. For every 1 person who sent a resignation letter to a podcast, 5 people quietly walked back into a chapel to pick up where they left off. That isn't a 'movement'; it's a phase to be grown out of, typically when they are in their 30s and have children.

Data from online communities shows that "Ex-Mo" hubs have massive churn rates. People join when they are in the "angry phase," but once they heal, they realize that "not being Mormon" is a boring hobby. They either move on to total secularism (forgetting the podcasts) or return to the Church. The "Ex-Mormon" community has almost zero multi-generational retention. People don't raise "third-generation Ex-Mormons", that identity usually disappears within one generation because a "negative identity" isn't sustainable.

Edited December 23, 2025 by Pyreaux

[MiserereNobis]

On 12/22/2025 at 4:05 AM, Navidad said:

Oh, and I would say the same thing to non-LDS Christianity in relation to its own splits and losses.

We’d love for all non-Catholic Christians to return home to Rome 😉

[The Nehor]

So it didn’t actually fall yet? Click bait!

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So it didn’t actually fall yet? Click bait!

Depends on how you define “fall”.

[Teancum]

On 12/20/2025 at 5:03 PM, Pyreaux said:

Hi everyone. In the spirit of uplifting this season, I wanted to start a thread examining a trend we’re seeing with the Mormon Stories podcast and what it may mean for faithful Latter-day Saints everywhere.What Mormon Stor

Quote

 

ies (Really) Is

First for context (n

 

ever assuming everyone on the forum knows), Mormon Stories Podcast was started in 2005 by John Dehlin and has been one of the most prominent independent podcast platforms discussing LDS topics with a claim to focus on interviews with a wide variety of perspectives, including critics of the Church. Their official mission statement (from their own website) frames their work as facilitating informed consent, supporting those in faith crisis, and building community, reflecting their self-identified purpose rather than the claims of critics or promoters.

This is all deception. Not only is Mormon Stories not an LDS platform., its an Ex-LDS platform. It is run entirely by former members, many of whom are openly hostile to the Church. The name and icons strongly implies it is a faithful LDS or objective organization, which misleads both members and non-members searching for legitimate LDS information.

They are the top search result for the term "Mormon". This branding strategy allows the platform to intercept people at moments of vulnerability, like LDS investigators, questioning LDS members, and those in faith crisis. The result is not informed consent, but directional persuasion.

Who the Main Audience (Really) Is

While Mormon Stories claims to serve people navigating faith transitions (in one direction only), its core audience increasingly appears to be Never-LDS who enjoy exaggerated narratives of "cult escape", abuse amplification, large institutional villainization, shock-value storytelling about LDS culture. This mirrors trends seen in other anti-religious media spaces, where outrage and trauma-p0rn outperform nuance. Faithful discussion, context, and spiritual outcomes are not the product being sold, the conflict is.

Supported by a viewership of never-LDS and donation from ex-LDS and anti-LDS. Mormon Stories functions less like a support group and more like a deconstruction factory. Guests are guided, sometimes subtly, sometimes overtly, toward predetermined conclusions. The same accusations are recycled with new faces. For this they get donations. This is pure commercialized deconversion, not pastoral care.

Hypocrisy

A recurring theme on Mormon Stories is criticism of how the Church handles money. Yet Mormon Stories itself operates under a structure where the brand is inseparable from its founder. All revenue and donations overwhelmingly benefit their central figure. Compensation transparency is minimal compared to the moral scrutiny applied to the Church. At minimum, this represents a double standard. At worst, it suggests projection.

I’m not saying Mormon Stories is a cult the way others overbroadly use it, but it’s worth asking why it increasingly resembles the very systems it claims to oppose. There is a central charismatic authority, he has narrative control, people are emotional dependent on him. He uses moral absolutism, he is financial reliant on followers. His followers do identity reconstruction ("before" vs "after" self).

If we applied criteria for identifying ‘cult behavior’ to Mormon Stories itself, would it pass? If those patterns are troubling inside churches, they should be troubling in non-churches.

The platform only survives if people keep leaving and keep paying. Guests rarely leave more independent. Any later reconciliation to the church is bad for business. Any peace or resolution ends engagement. Therefore, only continued anger sustains it. There will never be a solution.

Declining Influence

Growth momentum appears to have slowed. Engagement fatigue is visible even among its former supporters. Long-time listeners describe content as repetitive and ideologically rigid. These two consecutive years of reduced growth is not a fluke, it is a trend.

Over a two-year span, both viewership growth and audience momentum slowed noticeably. This matters because Mormon Stories’ model depends on sustained emotional engagement. Specifically anger, grievance, and disillusionment. That kind of content performs well in bursts, but it does not age well. Anger is exhausting, repetition dulls outrage, and audiences eventually move on when every story resolves the same way. Platforms built on permanent resentment face an unavoidable problem. Once the emotional payoff diminishes, so does the audience. The decline was already underway because grievance is not a renewable resource.

The actual growth rates over recent years are not publicly broken down month-by-month on Social Blade without paid access, so I can't verify claims like 2023 had 117,000 new subscribers vs 57,000 in 2024 and 28,000 in 2025. If anyone has access to month-by-month analytics, that would be great to share.

When Weak, a Forced Rebrand is a Direct Hit to their Deception Model

The Church’s request that Mormon Stories stop using branding that implies official or representative LDS status strikes at the heart of the platform’s growth strategy. The name itself functions as a search engine funnel. Capturing members, investigators, and outsiders searching for authentic LDS perspectives, then redirecting them into adversarial content. Removing that ambiguity disrupts discoverability, weakens first impressions, and forces the platform to operate honestly as what it is: an ex-LDS commentary channel.

The Church has every legal and ethical right to protect its identity and its members from confusion. Coming amid an existing decline, rebranding is not a inconvenience, it is a compounding blow. When growth is already slowing, losing a misleading point of entry can accelerate irrelevance.

Organizations like Mormon Stories are far more fragile than they appear. They are not a lean volunteer group; they are bulky operations with fixed costs, salaries, production expenses, contractors, studio infrastructure, and brand maintenance. All funded almost entirely by ongoing donations and attention. Even a modest, sustained decline in views, engagement, or donor enthusiasm can have outsized effects. When revenue dips below operating expectations, there is little cushion, and pressure compounds quickly.

Happy Holidays

Unlike the LDS Church, which is diversified, geared for the long-term, and not dependent on outrage, Mormon Stories must constantly replace disengaging donors with newly disaffected members. As that pool shrinks and fatigue sets in, the math turns unforgiving. For faithful Latter-day Saints this represents a quiet but meaningful shift. Fewer resources fueling anger, fewer incentives to sensationalize faith crises, and fewer members being monetized at moments of vulnerability. If trends continue, from a faithful LDS perspective, this season truly may be a Merry Christmas for those who care that truth and faith outlasted a grievance-driven enterprise.

May we look toward to the new year and hope for fewer fires. Fires of contention and outrage, and fewer literal fires as well. Attacks on churches, vandalism, and arson against houses of worship are never acceptable, no matter the ideology. When rhetoric cools and grievance-driven platforms lose influence, the real-world temperature often lowers too. A calmer media environment makes room for safer congregations, healthier dialogue, and faith practiced without fear. That is a hope worth carrying into the new year.

Discussions

Have you noticed fewer people recommending Mormon Stories lately?

Do you think the name is intentionally misleading?

What platforms do you see filling the gap?

What trends have you noticed in Mormon Stories’ influence, for yourself or others?

Have you noticed increased engagement with faithful LDS channels since 2023?

Do you think metrics like subscriber counts has told us anything meaningful?
Again, Mormon Stories is produced by the Open Stories Foundation, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit. Reliable revenue data needs the IRS Form 990. If you can access the latest filings, please post them!

This is absolutely hilarious. Poor LDS Church and bog old bogy man John Dehlin. Your post is simply laughable especially this:

Quote

A recurring theme on Mormon Stories is criticism of how the Church handles money. Yet Mormon Stories itself operates under a structure where the brand is inseparable from its founder. All revenue and donations overwhelmingly benefit their central figure. Compensation transparency is minimal compared to the moral scrutiny applied to the Church. At minimum, this represents a double standard. At worst, it suggests projection

Comparing the LDS Church and it's wealth and its total lack of transparency to Dehlin's NFP and the fact that he makes a reasonable salary is totally absurd. But guess what. As a MS donor I can see his financial statements and Form 990 any time. If it bugs me that he is making too much money I can opt out. He does not hide his financial activity from his supporters unlike the church which demands 10% of it adherents to participate in the highest ordinances of the faith. While I do not listen much to MS podcasts or other Mormon them podcasts anymore things  Mormon seem to interest my less and less and I have mostly moved on, I do appreciate the benefit and support I received from the podcasts, and from John directly. When my faith crisis happened in the early 2000s there was really not much support and I stumbled on MS and Dehlin. And John reached out to me personally at that time.

Your post really reeks of desperation and fear so apparently MS strikes quite the negative chord in you. 

[Pyreaux]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

This is absolutely hilarious. Poor LDS Church and bog old bogy man John Dehlin. Your post is simply laughable especially this:

Comparing the LDS Church and it's wealth and its total lack of transparency to Dehlin's NFP and the fact that he makes a reasonable salary is totally absurd. But guess what. As a MS donor I can see his financial statements and Form 990 any time. If it bugs me that he is making too much money I can opt out. He does not hide his financial activity from his supporters unlike the church which demands 10% of it adherents to participate in the highest ordinances of the faith. While I do not listen much to MS podcasts or other Mormon them podcasts anymore things  Mormon seem to interest my less and less and I have mostly moved on, I do appreciate the benefit and support I received from the podcasts, and from John directly. When my faith crisis happened in the early 2000s there was really not much support and I stumbled on MS and Dehlin. And John reached out to me personally at that time.

Your post really reeks of desperation and fear so apparently MS strikes quite the negative chord in you. 

Good to see you still around. Still kicking the pricks? You do you, man.

Anecdotal Shielding is using a one-time positive experience from 20 years ago to ignore the flaws.

John Dehlin's 2022/2023 filings show a salary of roughly $230k–$260k, which is about 30–60% of his foundation’s total revenue. You paid John for an emotional service (deconstruction support), and yes, when you were done you can unsub. But to Tithe is a promise to build a permanent, multi-generational community that serves everyone, regardless of their 'crisis.' One is a business transaction for your feelings; the other is a collective investment in a people.

You are still donating and patrolling forums to defend the man after 20 years? This is evidence the 'Ex-Mormon' identity is a reactive loop. You claim to be free, yet you’re still paying a monthly 'tax' to a podcast that talks about nothing but the Church you say you don't care about. Mormon Stories is a waiting room for people who can't quite let go.

I appreciate that you found personal support, that’s valid. However, nearly half of every dollar donated to that foundation goes directly into one man's pocket. In contrast, 100% of tithing is allocated to Church operations and into no one's pocket, your local leaders provide thousands of hours of counseling and service for $0. John Dehlin’s "support" is his full-time, high-salaried job, but I'm sure he cares about you. You say you’ve 'moved on,' but you are still subscribing/donating to them and still defending a 'negative identity' built entirely on what you don't believe. Its a bit of a paradox.

[sunstoned]

23 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

The "latest data" I mentioned is the 2024 Statistical Report (released in April 2025) and an LDS Church Growth Blog 2024 Statistical Report Analysis is the resource that Matt Martinich used to calculate the 145,912 record removals and analyze retention.

Total Membership: 17,509,781 (up from 17,255,394 in 2023)

Convert Baptisms: 308,682 (A 27-year high)

Children of Record: 91,617

The Church did not explicitly report "resignations," so we calculate it by looking at the gap between the new members added and the net growth.

Expected Growth: 400,299 (New members)

Actual Net Growth: 254,387

The Gap is the total records removed: 145,912

To find the resignation rate, you take that total, subtract the global mortality rate from 145,912.

The Global Death Rate is roughly 7.6 deaths per 1,000 people. For a population of 17.5 million, that is roughly 133,000 expected deaths.

If the Church recorded 90,000–100,000 of those deaths (accounting for those it "loses track of"), the remaining is 46,000 to 56,000 records that represent resignations and excommunications.

The percentage: 55,000 / 17,509,781 = 0.31% 

So, in 2024, for every 1 person who resigned to join the "Ex-Mormon community," the Church added 5 or 6 new members who stay based on even a conservative 20% retention of 308k converts.

Those sociological studies include BYU’s Religious Studies Center that have tracked the "activity life cycle" of members.

Roughly 44% of all active members have gone through a period of prolonged inactivity (months or years) and then resume regular church involvement. If there are 11 million "inactive" members, roughly 4.8 million of them are not "Ex-Mormons" but will statistically return for their child’s baptism or their parent’s funeral or randomly after about 18 months.

There was a 2024 "Re-Engagement" Spike In the latest 2024/2025 growth reports,

Elder Quentin L. Cook talked about efforts to "re-engage" people who were previously taught or involved led to nearly 40,000 baptisms in 2024 alone. 40,000 'prodigals' were re-baptized or re-engaged. For every 1 person who sent a resignation letter to a podcast, 5 people quietly walked back into a chapel to pick up where they left off. That isn't a 'movement'; it's a phase to be grown out of, typically when they are in their 30s and have children.

Data from online communities shows that "Ex-Mo" hubs have massive churn rates. People join when they are in the "angry phase," but once they heal, they realize that "not being Mormon" is a boring hobby. They either move on to total secularism (forgetting the podcasts) or return to the Church. The "Ex-Mormon" community has almost zero multi-generational retention. People don't raise "third-generation Ex-Mormons", that identity usually disappears within one generation because a "negative identity" isn't sustainable.

Thank you for this information.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 12/22/2025 at 11:17 PM, Pyreaux said:

If the Church recorded 90,000–100,000 of those deaths (accounting for those it "loses track of"), the remaining is 46,000 to 56,000 records that represent resignations and excommunications.

The percentage: 55,000 / 17,509,781 = 0.31% 

So, in 2024, for every 1 person who resigned to join the "Ex-Mormon community," the Church added 5 or 6 new members who stay based on even a conservative 20% retention of 308k converts.

This is a ridiculously narrow way to define exmormon. Better to look at self identified members versus church records. In Mexico for instance only 20 percent of people on the church roles identify as Latter-day Saint (80 percent exmormon) see here (https://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/2022/07/self-affiliated-latter-day-saints-in.html?m=1). 
 

Surveys show Utah as 50 percent Latter-day Saint vs 2/3 via church records. So 25 percent exmormon in a place where identifying as Latter-day Saint faces the most favorable conditions. For the United States as a whole the 60000 person CCES survey discussed here shows 1.14 percent self identify as Latter-day Saint. This if true would give 45 percent exmormon.  See discussion here: 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This is a ridiculously narrow way to define exmormon. Better to look at self identified members versus church records. In Mexico for instance only 20 percent of people on the church roles identify as Latter-day Saint (80 percent exmormon) see here (https://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/2022/07/self-affiliated-latter-day-saints-in.html?m=1). 
 

Surveys show Utah as 50 percent Latter-day Saint vs 2/3 via church records. So 25 percent exmormon in a place where identifying as Latter-day Saint faces the most favorable conditions. For the United States as a whole the 60000 person CCES survey discussed here shows 1.14 percent self identify as Latter-day Saint. This if true would give 45 percent exmormon.  See discussion here: 

 

How many of the 80% in Mexico (for example) intentionally broke away from Mormonism, considering their decision a morally compelling one and social risky, and thus sought out new communities or networks to support their transition away from the Church, with the aim of pursuing personal / communal growth beyond their former identity  as Church members? This is what I would consider an "exmo" or "postmo" as opposed to, say, "lapsed", "cultural," "habitual," "inactive" or "less active", etc. I think the distinction is important as a matter of integrity as to how someone describes themselves or represents others.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

12 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How many of the 80% in Mexico (for example) intentionally broke away from Mormonism, considering their decision a morally compelling one and social risky, and thus sought out new communities or networks to support their transition away from the Church, with the aim of pursuing personal / communal growth beyond their former identity  as Church members? This is what I would consider an "exmo" or "postmo" as opposed to, say, "lapsed", "cultural," "habitual," "inactive" or "less active", etc. I think the distinction is important as a matter of integrity as to how someone describes themselves or represents others.

You are making this too complicated. Baptized members at one point considered themselves as Latter-day Saints. These surveys show a significant number of them no longer do. This makes them ex-Mormons. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

"too complicated" vs. "over simplified" - with both sides absolutely convinced they're right.

Seems about right for MDDB.

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You are making this too complicated. Baptized members at one point considered themselves as Latter-day Saints. These surveys show a significant number of them no longer do. This makes them ex-Mormons. 

I think you are dumbing it down (Ludic fallacy) by identifying the Mexican cohort as you see them, rather than as they see themselves.

In consideration of the OP, and your use of the term "exmormon," ex-Mormons would be those who found a home in such venues as Mormon Stories (about 15 views per subscriber annually -- subscribers and non-subscribers combined, 35% of whom were never affiliated with the Church) and The Exmormon Foundation (little if any direct Spanish language content).

I think it would be simpler for you to say that many people leave the Church, period, and that 3% of these (total global maximum) watch and support Mormon Stories. The rest simply move on with their lives. Take a siesta! 

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think you are dumbing it down (Ludic fallacy) by identifying the Mexican cohort as you see them, rather than as they see themselves.

In consideration of the OP, and your use of the term "exmormon," ex-Mormons would be those who found a home in such venues as Mormon Stories (about 15 views per subscriber annually -- subscribers and non-subscribers combined, 35% of whom were never affiliated with the Church) and The Exmormon Foundation (little if any direct Spanish language content).

I think it would be simpler for you to say that many people leave the Church, period, and that 3% of these (total global maximum) watch and support Mormon Stories. The rest simply move on with their lives. Take a siesta! 

Sunstoned made a claim and the discussion that followed is in part about proving or disproving that claim, correct?

Quote

There are many more ex-Mormons than there are active Mormons in the world. 

If so, it’s best to start by asking what definition Sunstoned was using to see if the definition makes verifiable or not first and if so, verify it.  Then argue if there is a more precise term for “exmormon” than what Sunstoned used…

Scripturally speaking, it shouldn’t be shocking even if depressing for believers if there are more exmormons than believing LDS in the world.  The Church of the Lamb of God numbers are supposed to be few (though if in comparison to the world’s population, millions are few).

Edited December 24, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

In consideration of the OP, and your use of the term "exmormon," ex-Mormons would be those who found a home in such venues as Mormon Stories

I would like to see the logic demonstrating this is the most reasonable definition in this context as I find it hard to believe anyone here actually defines “exmormon” as “hangs out with other exmormons online and off socially” or some such thing anymore than one would define believing LDS as only those who hang out online with other believing LDS.

Edited December 24, 2025 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

24 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think you are dumbing it down (Ludic fallacy) by identifying the Mexican cohort as you see them, rather than as they see themselves.

In consideration of the OP, and your use of the term "exmormon," ex-Mormons would be those who found a home in such venues as Mormon Stories (about 15 views per subscriber annually -- subscribers and non-subscribers combined, 35% of whom were never affiliated with the Church) and The Exmormon Foundation (little if any direct Spanish language content).

I think it would be simpler for you to say that many people leave the Church, period, and that 3% of these (total global maximum) watch and support Mormon Stories. The rest simply move on with their lives. Take a siesta! 

Except I was not replying to opening post, but rather this.

On 12/22/2025 at 8:27 PM, Pyreaux said:

Reality Check: Inactive =/= ExMormon

The Church reports roughly 17.2 million members. Independent sociological estimates think there are about 5–7 million active members and 10–12 million "inactive" members. Most people who stop attending never become "Ex-Mormon", or join Reddit or listen to John Dehlin. Many are even still identifying as LDS on a census, believe the core tenets but struggle with attendance or the lifestyle, or have simply drifted away without any animosity or will even comeback later.

Based on the latest data we lose 0.5% of members a year.

I'm sorry, but if people don't identify as a member of your group, they aren't a member of your group.. They aren't "inactive" members. They are former members - ex-mormon - if you will. As for those that join Reddit or listen to John Dehlin, those are the ex-mormons that had particularly strong community ties that most former Latter-day Saints lack.