Merry Christmas and Cheers to the Fall of Mormon Stories

[Notatbm]

On 1/16/2026 at 5:55 PM, Pyreaux said:

How else will we manage a massive membership that contributes almost nothing to the treasury but will require 90% of the administrative effort?

Pres Nelson told the Africans the following:

”"We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation," he said. "That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing."

Thats how it will get paid for. Africans thriving economically and once they pay tithing they will magically have enough money to fund church operations there. We all know its BS but hey the prophet said it so it must be true. 

Edited January 19 by Notatbm

[Notatbm]

On 1/9/2026 at 2:43 PM, Teancum said:

If you think your world wide activity rate is all hunky dory more power to you. The only one bringing up regions is you.

Since you mention activity rate, yesterday several stakes had their stake conferences here in gilbert and Mesa. In our stake they used two buildings… both were practically empty. That’s out of ~3k people in the stake roster.  People were on Facebook lamenting how no one showed up. 
 

additionally, we visited some friends last night to play cards. They knew my wife and I are out and haven’t been to church in ages. They confessed they have not been in three years. Their kids are not going either. Other couple that showed up haven’t gone in a couple years either. Combined that is three former active tithe paying families with a total of 11 kids all not attending and not paying tithing. Only one kid has gone in a mission of the four who are of age to go and that was my kid who was home from his before we bailed. 
 

it’s all anecdotal, but I meet more and more people who have just quietly walked away. No fanfare. These people are what most “ex Mormons” are. Still on the rolls, but do not participate in the least. 

[Pyreaux]

14 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Pres Nelson told the Africans the following:

”"We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation," he said. "That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing."

Thats how it will get paid for. Africans thriving economically and once they pay tithing they will magically have enough money to fund church operations there. We all know its BS but hey the prophet said it so it must be true. 

It is true. You simply don't comprehend the reason. Tithing is not merely economic input but a spiritual law that triggers certain changes. Primarily, what is being said is tithing "unlocks" divine assistance. Not that the Church needs the money, but rather the member needs the blessing of sacrifice. I don't expect you'll understand, being as you are.

There are also practical effects of tithing on the poor. An African Bishop can help whoever he wants but is far more likely to grant that help to someone who is at least "striving" to keep the law of tithing. Church assistance isn't without strings-attached, he will almost always ask you to attend church, tithe, maybe volunteer to clean the chapel, volunteer at a storehouse, or help another member move, meet with a "Self-Reliance" specialist to create a budget and a plan to get off Church assistance. They frequently tell members they should pay tithing before paying for food or rent, and in return, the Church will pay 100% of your rent and grocery bill. Mathematically, the member comes out ahead. They give $300 in tithing but receive $2,000 in rent assistance. You could indeed say they will "magically" have enough money.

Edited January 19 by Pyreaux

[Pyreaux]

23 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

it’s all anecdotal, but I meet more and more people who have just quietly walked away. No fanfare. These people are what most “ex Mormons” are. Still on the rolls, but do not participate in the least. 

Then most Ex-Mormons are not Ex-Mormons. Many inactives still believe the Church is "true" but find the lifestyle too difficult, have social anxiety, or simply fell out of the habit. There are Jack-Mormons that may drink and don't go to church but will fight you in a bar if you insult the Prophet. They haven't left the faith; they’ve just stopped practicing it. That's not Ex-Mormonism.

[The Nehor]

Millions of medieval subsistence farmers have followed the law of tithing and did not break their cycle of poverty.

[Pyreaux]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Millions of medieval subsistence farmers have followed the law of tithing and did not break their cycle of poverty.

In medieval Europe, tithing wasn't a "voluntary sacrifice"; it was a mandatory tax enforced by the state. The "cycle" was locked, medieval farmers were serfs. They were legally bound to the land. Feudalism did not allow for breaking the cycle of poverty. There were no universities, no small business loans, and no upward mobility regardless of how much you gave to the Church. We live in a Capitalist-Globalized world where choices matter. LDS Church is funding the schools and the storehouses that weren't available to the medieval farmer. The Church's gamble is that they have built a system that can override Africa's cycle.

Edited January 19 by Pyreaux

[Notatbm]

14 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

They frequently tell members they should pay tithing before paying for food or rent, and in return, the Church will pay 100% of your rent and grocery bill. Mathematically, the member comes out ahead. They give $300 in tithing but receive $2,000 in rent assistance. You could indeed say they will "magically" have enough money.

Pres Nelson said paying tithing will break the cycle of poverty, not that it will buy you financial and temporal returns exceeding your actual income. This isn't financial reliance or breaking a poverty cycle--- it is making a person dependent on an organization for their bills.

 

Edited January 19 by Notatbm

[Notatbm]

14 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Then most Ex-Mormons are not Ex-Mormons. Many inactives still believe the Church is "true" but find the lifestyle too difficult, have social anxiety, or simply fell out of the habit. There are Jack-Mormons that may drink and don't go to church but will fight you in a bar if you insult the Prophet. They haven't left the faith; they’ve just stopped practicing it. That's not Ex-Mormonism.

This is the kind of attitude some teenager have over relationships....girl and boy go out for a while, agree they are "going out" then all of a sudden she doesn't answer the phone, respond to a text, answer the door and somehow even months and years later the boy will tell everyone she is still his girlfriend. There doesn't have to be any communication or administrative process to quit a relationship like that or even the church for that matter. The church needs to quit acting like the scorned boyfriend and quit claiming long-time inactives  as members. It isnt a real reflection of "membership." 

[Pyreaux]

7 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

Pres Nelson said paying tithing will break the cycle of poverty, not that it will buy you financial and temporal returns exceeding your actual income. This isn't financial reliance or breaking a poverty cycle--- it is making a person dependent on an organization for their bills.

Utter nonsense, because everyone knows LDS Church's system isn't designed to pay bills indefinitely, but to use it as "breathing room" for mandatory "Self-Reliance" Classes or the Perpetual Education Fund (PEF) to allow poor members in places like Africa to become nurses, electricians, or accountants. Once they graduate and get high-paying jobs, they pay back the loan and pay tithing on their new, higher salary. The cycle of poverty ends. President Nelson didn't have to say all that for it to be true.

[Pyreaux]

42 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

This is the kind of attitude some teenager have over relationships....girl and boy go out for a while, agree they are "going out" then all of a sudden she doesn't answer the phone, respond to a text, answer the door and somehow even months and years later the boy will tell everyone she is still his girlfriend. There doesn't have to be any communication or administrative process to quit a relationship like that or even the church for that matter. The church needs to quit acting like the scorned boyfriend and quit claiming long-time inactives  as members. It isnt a real reflection of "membership." 

Sloppy comparison, it's more like a marriage. A person stops coming home, stops talking to their spouse, and moves to another state, they are "inactive" in their marriage but they are still legally married. To no longer be married, they must go through a formal divorce (resignation). Neither of us have the right to "un-sign" that contract, and a massive group of people will be offended if we did. They wait decades for an inactive person to return, in the church many of those quiet leavers are actually future prodigals.

[Notatbm]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Sloppy comparison, it's more like a marriage. A person stops coming home, stops talking to their spouse, and moves to another state, they are "inactive" in their marriage but they are still legally married. To no longer be married, they must go through a formal divorce (resignation). Neither of us have the right to "un-sign" that contract, and a massive group of people will be offended if we did. They wait decades for an inactive person to return, in the church many of those quiet leavers are actually future prodigals.

It’s not like a marriage. Eight year old kids can’t enter contracts or be legally bound to a corporation when they are baptized. They can (should be able to) leave whenever they want without requiring a quasi legal process to get out for that matter. Heck many of those kids still believe in Santa when they are “covenanting” with the lord. 
 

 

Edited January 20 by Notatbm

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

In medieval Europe, tithing wasn't a "voluntary sacrifice"; it was a mandatory tax enforced by the state. The "cycle" was locked, medieval farmers were serfs. They were legally bound to the land. Feudalism did not allow for breaking the cycle of poverty. There were no universities, no small business loans, and no upward mobility regardless of how much you gave to the Church. We live in a Capitalist-Globalized world where choices matter. LDS Church is funding the schools and the storehouses that weren't available to the medieval farmer. The Church's gamble is that they have built a system that can override Africa's cycle.

So Malachi was lying when he gave out the tithing and offerings promise? The promised blessings only work under an economic system that didn’t exist yet. Whoops.

Also don’t buy that God only blesses “voluntary sacrifice”.

The Church isn’t going to ‘solve’ Africa with their system.

[Pyreaux]

17 hours ago, Notatbm said:

It’s not like a marriage. Eight year old kids can’t enter contracts or be legally bound to a corporation when they are baptized. They can leave whenever they want and requiring a quasi legal process to get out for that matter. Heck many of those kids still believe in Santa when they are “covenanting” with the lord. 

The quasi legal process is exactly why a marriage is a better analogy than your girlfriend analogy. In a sense the "contract" is actually between the parents and the institution to raise the child in a certain way, with the child as a willing participant. At an age when they know the difference between an accident and intent, a lie and a promise. It is indeed different from a marriage, as statistically, "separations" (inactivity) are more likely to end in "reconciliation" (reactivation) than "divorces" (formal resignation), but it is far more like a "wife" who moved out rather than a "girlfriend" who left, due to the potential for return.

Edited January 20 by Pyreaux

[Pyreaux]

On 1/19/2026 at 5:56 PM, The Nehor said:

So Malachi was lying when he gave out the tithing and offerings promise? The promised blessings only work under an economic system that didn’t exist yet. Whoops.

Also don’t buy that God only blesses “voluntary sacrifice”.

The Church isn’t going to ‘solve’ Africa with their system.

The times change. In Malachi’s time, the promised "windows of heaven" and "rebuking the devourer," he was talking to a drought-stricken, locust-plagued agrarian society. The promised of rain is the currency of life. They believe this "sacrifice" is what unlocks the "miracle" of survival in impossible circumstances. But we don't live in a grain-based theocracy. These promises are not necessarily rain for us non-farmers, nor money per se. Thus, in context of President Nelson’s 2018 promise in Kenya wasn't necessarily that the GDP of Kenya would rise. He argued that tithing changes people, which will eventually change the nation.

If your most cynical point is that the system won't work on a continental scale, it will start. Be patient, poverty is broken over generations. We're trying to "solve" it by creating, albeit slowly, a tithing-paying middle class that builds its own businesses, while giving them a community and an identity more valuable than money. Not only will we feed Africans within our reach but offer a system that empowers Africans to feed themselves. But the "buy-in" is indeed the tithe.

Edited January 21 by Pyreaux

[Notatbm]

On 1/19/2026 at 5:41 PM, Pyreaux said:

The quasi legal process is exactly why a marriage is a better analogy than your girlfriend analogy. In a sense the "contract" is actually between the parents and the institution to raise the child in a certain way, with the child as a willing participant. At an age when they know the difference between an accident and intent, a lie and a promise. It is indeed different from a marriage, as statistically, "separations" (inactivity) are more likely to end in "reconciliation" (reactivation) than "divorces" (formal resignation), but it is far more like a "wife" who moved out rather than a "girlfriend" who left, due to the potential for return.

So the parents make a covenant with the lord and somehow the eight year old who still believes in Santa clause is the one who is on the hook to honor the covenant.? Ok

[Pyreaux]

11 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

So the parents make a covenant with the lord and somehow the eight year old who still believes in Santa clause is the one who is on the hook to honor the covenant.? Ok

Yes, the child is "on the hook" because of a choice their parents facilitated. You're pretending this isn't just like every religion that inducts children before they can give "informed consent" (Circumcision, Infant Baptism, etc). Just like how parents "hook" their kids into an education system or a healthcare plan before the child understands it. Once they have autonomy, they are on the hook to resign and you have zero say whether they are ex-Mormon until they do. Period.

[phaedrus ut]

On 12/20/2025 at 3:03 PM, Pyreaux said:

Hi everyone. In the spirit of uplifting this season, I wanted to start a thread examining a trend we’re seeing with the Mormon Stories podcast and what it may mean for faithful Latter-day Saints everywhere.

What Mormon Stories (Really) Is

First for context (never assuming everyone on the forum knows), Mormon Stories Podcast was started in 2005 by John Dehlin

Hey Pyureaux did you know that John Dehlin was a participant on this forum and the forum that preceded it? Many of us have been having conversations on the topics of Mormonism with Dehlin for 25 plus years. What this means is that many of us know what honest engagement and conversations look like. And many of us can tell you are generating large portions of your post using AI. 

Because your observations aren't insightful or interesting your prediction about the fall of Mormon Stories is about as valuable as the prompt you typed to make your original post. 

Do better,

Phaedrus UT

[Notatbm]

6 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

Hey Pyureaux did you know that John Dehlin was a participant on this forum and the forum that preceded it? Many of us have been having conversations on the topics of Mormonism with Dehlin for 25 plus years. What this means is that many of us know what honest engagement and conversations look like. And many of us can tell you are generating large portions of your post using AI. 

Because your observations aren't insightful or interesting your prediction about the fall of Mormon Stories is about as valuable as the prompt you typed to make your original post. 

Do better,

Phaedrus UT

Amen… John dehlin is more transparent than the church can ever be. 

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Yes, the child is "on the hook" because of a choice their parents facilitated. You're pretending this isn't just like every religion that inducts children before they can give "informed consent" (Circumcision, Infant Baptism, etc). Just like how parents "hook" their kids into an education system or a healthcare plan before the child understands it. Once they have autonomy, they are on the hook to resign and you have zero say whether they are ex-Mormon until they do. Period.

Oh of course the church can keep people on the rolls as long as they want. What they cannot do is hold people’s identity hostage for a notarized piece of paper presented to someone who only has as much authority as one allows them to have. 

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Oh of course the church can keep people on the rolls as long as they want. What they cannot do is hold people’s identity hostage for a notarized piece of paper presented to someone who only has as much authority as one allows them to have. 

Yes they can, your identity is part of a record. Until the record changes, you are "ours." The Church is the sole owner of an administrative identity. If they don't resign, the Church will keep them. You can't speak for them no matter how much hyperbole you cram into your posts.

Edited January 21 by Pyreaux

[Devobah]

2 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

And many of us can tell you are generating large portions of your post using AI. 

I think Pyreaux has addressed this. He's been pressed on the AI thing before. The format is nice, and at most that's what's taken, but I don't think "large portions" are generated by it, from what I understand.

Sincerely,

A teacher who has students use AI much more than anyone should

[Pyreaux]

13 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

Hey Pyureaux did you know that John Dehlin was a participant on this forum and the forum that preceded it? Many of us have been having conversations on the topics of Mormonism with Dehlin for 25 plus years. What this means is that many of us know what honest engagement and conversations look like. And many of us can tell you are generating large portions of your post using AI. 

Because your observations aren't insightful or interesting your prediction about the fall of Mormon Stories is about as valuable as the prompt you typed to make your original post. 

Do better,

Phaedrus UT

I was here since 2006, I was at Whyprophets.com forum before it closed and we all migrated over here. I don't remember seeing John, but I also was gone for the last 10 years.

Uninteresting? Because it actually sounds like I said something that touched a nerve. You ignored any specific argument and instead just attacked my character, and many who know what honest communications look like, that is usually a sign you don’t have a strong counter-argument to the data you were presented with. If my observations are 'uninteresting,' I’d be 'interested' to hear your take on what will happen when current slowed subscriber growth gets compounded with the soon end of their branding deception. I think it's set to implode. Do you agree? You didn't say. Are you saying the reason you find the branding deception so 'uninteresting' is because you've seen this deception for 25 years?

I use various tools to help organize data clearly, but the observations themselves all are mine. Screaming "AI!" when a post is well-structured, uses headers and to "Do better!" is a cliche often used when someone doesn't have a specific critique, but wants to claim moral superiority.

Edited January 22 by Pyreaux

[Notatbm]

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Yes they can, your identity is part of a record. Until the record changes, you are "ours." The Church is the sole owner of an administrative identity. If they don't resign, the Church will keep them. You can't speak for them no matter how much hyperbole you cram into your posts.

And with this practice the delta between the reality on the ground and what they tell everyone grows wider and wider because almost no one live to 110 yrs. Thats cool

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, Notatbm said:

And with this practice the delta between the reality on the ground and what they tell everyone grows wider and wider because almost no one live to 110 yrs. Thats cool

Always deflecting. Instead of responding to any point, you pivot to a new trope. It's a total Red Herring. If you move on, you concede, people are officially part of the record until they take the step to resign. That is agency. Whether the Church will purge lost people's records when they are 110 has nothing to do with your attempt to "speak for" everyone alive who hasn't bothered to remove their name from the records.

A person has 'absolutely' chosen to stay on the records, and whether or not some may simply not care enough to resign, you don't get to 'claim' them for your movement or speak for their experience. You don't own their narrative just because they stopped attending.

Edited January 22 by Pyreaux

[Notatbm]

On 1/19/2026 at 1:35 AM, The Nehor said:

Millions of medieval subsistence farmers have followed the law of tithing and did not break their cycle of poverty.

In Zimbabwe they have been instructed by the prophets wife to pay tithing on what they want to make. 
 

first off this talk pretty much teaches the opposite of giving with a happy heart. It teaches to be selfish and manipulate god into blessing you to make a desired income. Second- I wonder how many people have taken this “story” and tried it with success? 
lastly- it is obviously not true. 
 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9trEPUuN-0

2:25 mark for Wendy’s commentary of George q cannon tithing tale