Are ransoms ever paid for something that is just?

[Rain]

Just read how Christ gave himself for a ransom. 

Most of the time you hear abut ransoms when the ransomer has stolen a person and demands money to get them back. I searched a little and sometimes the same thing is said about objects or body parts. Sometimes towns have paid a ransom so that they were not ransacked by waring enemies.

So if Christ gave himself a ransom the ransom, according to the above, would suggest would be paid to someone who has stolen each of us, or has us captive? Or are we the people who have stolen ourselves through our actions? If the later that is just whirling my head of what that could mean.

Or is there another meaning for "ransom"?

Edited April 18, 2018 by Rain

[rongo]

I think it could be us (through our choices, which separate us from God), or from the effects of the Fall (death, hell, and the devil, to quote Nephi in the Book of Mormon). Either way, we need to be ransomed in order to return and live with God again. 

Your OP title question is interesting, because Christ ransoms us to satisfy the demands of justice (in my view, from the intelligences. I think that the Skousenite view is the only scriptural explanation that makes sense). It is the very unjust nature of Christ suffering for us that moves the intelligences that demand justice (which would prevent us from ever returning) to accept his purchase of us (to allow "just mercy," as opposed to whimsical or arbitrary mercy) and to allow us to return while still allowing God to remain God. It isn't "just" that Christ died and atoned for us, but because he did, it satisfies the demands of justice in the intelligences if we follow the terms Christ lays out. 

[Gray]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

Just read how Christ gave himself for a ransom. 

Most of the time you hear abut ransoms when the ransomer has stolen a person and demands money to get them back. I searched a little and sometimes the same thing is said about objects or body parts. Sometimes towns have paid a ransom so that they were not ransacked by waring enemies.

So if Christ gave himself a ransom the ransom, according to the above, would suggest would be paid to someone who has stolen each of us, or has us captive? Or are we the people who have stolen ourselves through our actions? If the later that is just whirling my head of what that could mean.

Or is there another meaning for "ransom"?

Ransom theory of atonement is one of the oldest theories of atonement, along with moral influence theory. From Wikipedia:

Quote

The theory teaches that the death of Christ was a ransom sacrifice, usually said to have been paid to Satan or to death itself, in some views paid to God the Father, in satisfaction for the bondage and debt on the souls of humanity as a result of inherited sin.

In Mormonism the theory used is generally the penal substitution theory, which developed many centuries later.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Just read how Christ gave himself for a ransom. 

Most of the time you hear abut ransoms when the ransomer has stolen a person and demands money to get them back. I searched a little and sometimes the same thing is said about objects or body parts. Sometimes towns have paid a ransom so that they were not ransacked by waring enemies.

So if Christ gave himself a ransom the ransom, according to the above, would suggest would be paid to someone who has stolen each of us, or has us captive? Or are we the people who have stolen ourselves through our actions? If the later that is just whirling my head of what that could mean.

Or is there another meaning for "ransom"?

There are other meanings for ransom which fit nicely with what Christ did for us. He essentially paid the Judge to release the captive (physical death) and the prisoners (spiritual death) on lawfully appropriate terms. Aside from kidnapped victims and stolen property, ransoms can release prisoners and slaves that are lawfully held. It can also refer to a price paid or demanded, or a redemptive fine (whether in a scriptural or religious applications or secular).

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/ransom

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ransom

Edited April 17, 2018 by CV75

[bluebell]

I was going to say that the ransomer seems likely to be death or hell (which I guess is true according to Gray's post but I had never heard of that Atonement theory before.  Kind of interesting).  With verses like that, i think of them more as a symbolic explanation of the Atonement, rather than an actual theory on how it works.  Because of the Fall, death owns us, for example, so the Atonement can poetically be described as ransoming us from death.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Just read how Christ gave himself for a ransom. 

There are three references to "ransom" in the New Testament:

• Matthew 20:28: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
• 1 Timothy 2:6: "{Jesus Christ} gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
• Mark 10:45: "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

The word used in all three verses, in the Greek, is lytron  (λύτρον)  From Strong's Concordance:

Quote

lutron: a ransom

Original Word: λύτρον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: lutron
Phonetic Spelling: (loo'-tron)
Short Definition: a ransom, an offering of expiation
Definition: the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation.

Cognate: 3083 lýtron (a neuter noun) – literally, the ransom-money (price) to free a slave. 3083(lýtron) is used in the NT of the ultimate "liberty-price" – the blood of Christ which purchases(ransoms) believers, freeing them from all slavery (bondage) to sin. 3083 (lýtron) occurs twice in the NT (Mt 10:28; Mk 10:45), both times referring to this purchase (ransom-price) which Christ paid.See 3084 (lytroō).

Here is a more generic definition for the English term:

Quote

noun
1. the redemption of a prisoner, slave, or kidnapped person, of captured goods, etc., for a price.
2. the sum or price paid or demanded.
3. a means of deliverance or rescue from punishment for sin, especially the payment of a redemptive fine.

In the context of Christ giving Himself (His life) as a "ransom," I think that concept should be framed properly.  That is, that the person being ransomed (each of us) is an actual wrongdoer.  A "prisoner" justly confined, rather than an innocent victim of wrongdoing (such as a kidnapped person).  "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."  (Romans 3:23)

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Most of the time you hear abut ransoms when the ransomer has stolen a person and demands money to get them back. I searched a little and sometimes the same thing is said about objects or body parts. Sometimes towns have paid a ransom so that they were not ransacked by waring enemies.

Yep.  That's the more comman usage.

2 hours ago, Rain said:

So if Christ gave himself a ransom the ransom, according to the above, would suggest would be paid to someone who has stolen each of us, or has us captive?

I think the metaphor is that we have each sinned.  We are separated from God, and held and kept from him by the natural laws of justice, until those laws are satisfied by mercy.  Mercy cannot rob justice, however, so a payment (a ransom) must be given to satisfy justice.  That ransom is paid by Jesus Christ.

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Or are we the people who have stolen ourselves through our actions?

I think we lose many of the blessings of God when we are estranged from him.  We are, in a sense, imprisoned by our sins.  We are freed from that by mercy.  Grace.  Jesus Christ.

2 hours ago, Rain said:

If the later that is just whirling my head of what that could mean.

Or is there another meaning for "ransom"?

I think you've got the meaning pretty much correct.  But the metaphor in which it is used can take some time to work out.

Just my two bits.

Thanks,

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Just read how Christ gave himself for a ransom. 

Most of the time you hear abut ransoms when the ransomer has stolen a person and demands money to get them back. I searched a little and sometimes the same thing is said about objects or body parts. Sometimes towns have paid a ransom so that they were not ransacked by waring enemies.

So if Christ gave himself a ransom the ransom, according to the above, would suggest would be paid to someone who has stolen each of us, or has us captive? Or are we the people who have stolen ourselves through our actions? If the later that is just whirling my head of what that could mean.

Or is there another meaning for "ransom"?

Good for you.  Don't let it whirl too much- the ransom theory doesn't work anyway for reasons you already see.

It requires some kind of objective measure for sin vs merit to balance scales, when of course such objective measure for such things does not even make sense.  It is a simple explanation for a different time and different people which has somehow lasted for thousands of years.

Belief in the savior takes away our sins because of his sacrifice for us which we cannot possibly understand or put into silly theories.

I'm a little dumb and that is the way I have to think of it.

Quite frankly to me the belief itself causes one to relieve oneself of the guilt for sins which we cannot fix.  God loves us and forgives us if we believe he will, do all we can to repent of sin and do what we can to erase the results of hurting others as much as we can, and we have faith and live our lives believing that.  To me that is the meaning of the idea that we are "saved by the grace of God, after all we can do".

Certainly that works pragmatically.  We do something wrong, realize it is wrong and do all we can do make up for the wrong we have caused and never do it again.

What else can we do?  Live with paralyzing guilt for the rest of our lives?

At that point we put our faith in our loving Father and go on with life, in full belief that we are forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  It is either that or the darkness of guilt for the rest of our lives if we let it bother us- it is "outer darkness" as a life sentence- at least. 

Since we cannot prove the atonement in any kind of scientific way, we accept on faith that we are forgiven "after all we can do".

Works for me. 

 

THAT is what works for me.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Sometimes towns have paid a ransom so that they were not ransacked by waring enemies.

The atonement can be symbolically viewed in the same way as the example you give.  

The ransom theory is not a perfect analogy, but I see it as a touching and symbolic gesture of what Christ did.  He literally gave himself to warring enemies, to be tortured and hung on the cross, so that we can avoid being ransacked by spiritual enemies.  Enemies demanded his life, and he willingly gave it to preserve ours.   

 

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Just read how Christ gave himself for a ransom. 

Most of the time you hear abut ransoms when the ransomer has stolen a person and demands money to get them back. I searched a little and sometimes the same thing is said about objects or body parts. Sometimes towns have paid a ransom so that they were not ransacked by waring enemies.

So if Christ gave himself a ransom the ransom, according to the above, would suggest would be paid to someone who has stolen each of us, or has us captive? Or are we the people who have stolen ourselves through our actions? If the later that is just whirling my head of what that could mean.

Or is there another meaning for "ransom"?

The Savior paid the price of sin which has two levels - his blood was the ransom price that broke the bonds of death. Second, though we have enslaved ourselves to sin he paid the price that we were washed clean.  Though some might use other words I think they would all boil down to these to things.

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, pogi said:

The atonement can be symbolically viewed in the same way as the example you give.  

The ransom theory is not a perfect analogy, but I see it as a touching and symbolic gesture of what Christ did.  He literally gave himself to warring enemies, to be tortured and hung on the cross, so that we can avoid being ransacked by spiritual enemies.  Enemies demanded his life, and he willingly gave it to preserve ours.   

 

I am simple-minded. I take this literally that we are saved by grace after all that we can do.

I know for a fact that that Faith comforts me and takes away the guilt of my sins.

I don't know how or why it works but it does. No mechanics no theories just the simple fact that it works.

 

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

Just read how Christ gave himself for a ransom. 

Most of the time you hear abut ransoms when the ransomer has stolen a person and demands money to get them back. I searched a little and sometimes the same thing is said about objects or body parts. Sometimes towns have paid a ransom so that they were not ransacked by waring enemies.

So if Christ gave himself a ransom the ransom, according to the above, would suggest would be paid to someone who has stolen each of us, or has us captive? Or are we the people who have stolen ourselves through our actions? If the later that is just whirling my head of what that could mean.

Or is there another meaning for "ransom"?

I am going to take a stab at this. I believe it is just one way to view the atonement. The ransom is not so much to someone who stole us or kidnapped us, but is in satisfaction of someone who has a claim on us. Once we sin Satan has a claim on us, and tries to make us his servants or slaves. Once we die, the applicable term is spirit prison. We are sent there because death is the penalty for breaking the law, and without repentance, we become subject to spiritual death, and the power of Satan. Yeshua suffered death on our behalf, so that if we accept Him, He may have claim on us to the point that spirits can escape prison or hell. The atonement is complex and has different levels of understanding, so don't get too caught up in the terminology. The word ransom may not be an exact match for what actually occurs. Its an English word applied to a Greek word which may have been translated from Aramaic. Part of the meaning of the atonement is to overcome wickedness. This goes back to the golden serpent and Moses. Why did God tell Moses to make a golden serpent - that seems to contradict His commands not to make idols, etc. Well, I believe the serpent on the staff did not represent anything to be worshiped. It represented Satan's use of fear and death to try to hold man captive to the material world. If we look upon that and see it for what it is, and Yeshua's willingness to overcome that for us, then we will live. The staff and serpent is a symbol of being able to look at death, and defying fear of it. Yeshua looked at it and lived. He taught us to overcome it through His words of the staff. Those who do this will truly live because the bite of death will lose its sting. They will live without fear of consequences. They will be fed by God. It's all symbolism. Don't get too upset if a particular symbol or word doesn't seem to quite match.

[Rain]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

There are three references to "ransom" in the New Testament:

• Matthew 20:28: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
• 1 Timothy 2:6: "{Jesus Christ} gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
• Mark 10:45: "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

The word used in all three verses, in the Greek, is lytron  (λύτρον)  From Strong's Concordance:

Here is a more generic definition for the English term:

In the context of Christ giving Himself (His life) as a "ransom," I think that concept should be framed properly.  That is, that the person being ransomed (each of us) is an actual wrongdoer.  A "prisoner" justly confined, rather than an innocent victim of wrongdoing (such as a kidnapped person).  "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."  (Romans 3:23)

Yep.  That's the more comman usage.

I think the metaphor is that we have each sinned.  We are separated from God, and held and kept from him by the natural laws of justice, until those laws are satisfied by mercy.  Mercy cannot rob justice, however, so a payment (a ransom) must be given to satisfy justice.  That ransom is paid by Jesus Christ.

I think we lose many of the blessings of God when we are estranged from him.  We are, in a sense, imprisoned by our sins.  We are freed from that by mercy.  Grace.  Jesus Christ.

I think you've got the meaning pretty much correct.  But the metaphor in which it is used can take some time to work out.

Just my two bits.

Thanks,

-Smac

Interesting about the greek. I noticed some time ago that we use "resurrection" to talk about Christian overcoming physical death. We use "atonement" to talk about him overcoming physical and spiritual death and then sometimes we also use it to talk about it for him overcoming just spiritual death. I wondered why, if it was so important, there wasn't a word we could use just for the spiritual part instead of usin a,word that also covers both. After awhile I descovered "expiation" but that is a word we rarely use and often only in conference talks. The tie to "ransom" opens up things even more for me.

[The Nehor]

Our redemption is in defiance of justice. The Savior’s sacrifice made it just.

[clarkgoble]

On 4/17/2018 at 9:33 AM, Gray said:

Ransom theory of atonement is one of the oldest theories of atonement, along with moral influence theory. From Wikipedia:

In Mormonism the theory used is generally the penal substitution theory, which developed many centuries later.

While many accept the penal substitution theory I tend to think the healing/consequence model is believed the most. This is the idea that through the atonement Christ learns how to heal all of us - often with a consequence of emphasizing Gethsemene more than the cross. I notice Mormons tend to prefer art of Gethsemene more than the cross as well.