I have come to realize

[sam]

I come to realize that there is no civilization in central or south America that apologist and researchers can point to as the Nephites.

I only say this because I would love to do a one on one comparison with the Hopewell Indians found in North America to a civilization found in central or south America but at this point that is not possible.

If anybody knows of a civilization found in central or south America that is considered the Nephites please let me know I honestly want to do a one on one comparison.

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, sam said:

I come to realize that there is no civilization in central or south America that apologist and researchers can point to as the Nephites.

I only say this because I would love to do a one on one comparison with the Hopewell Indians found in North America to a civilization found in central or south America but at this point that is not possible.

If anybody knows of a civilization found in central or south America that is considered the Nephites please let me know I honestly want to do a one on one comparison.

Since you already know the answer that leaves zero room to have a discussion.  Your mind is made up.

[sam]

I feel like the king has no clothes.

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, sam said:

I feel like the king has no clothes.

I gave you three links to books you could read that would provide you with the information that you're looking for.  You told me to get the information out of them for you.  There are also numerous articles available on the internet if you don't have the time to read or money to purchase the books.  Read them and then come back and engage someone like Brant Gardner.  If you can find things wrong with the things he's written I bet you he would be willing to listen.  But you need to do the work.

[sam]

16 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I gave you three links to books you could read that would provide you with the information that you're looking for.  You told me to get the information out of them for you.  There are also numerous articles available on the internet if you don't have the time to read or money to purchase the books.  Read them and then come back and engage someone like Brant Gardner.  If you can find things wrong with the things he's written I bet you he would be willing to listen.  But you need to do the work.

I will ask Brant. Brant have meso American apologist ever identified a civilization found in central and or south American as the Nephites?

[JLHPROF]

38 minutes ago, sam said:

I come to realize that there is no civilization in central or south America that apologist and researchers can point to as the Nephites.

I only say this because I would love to do a one on one comparison with the Hopewell Indians found in North America to a civilization found in central or south America but at this point that is not possible.

If anybody knows of a civilization found in central or south America that is considered the Nephites please let me know I honestly want to do a one on one comparison.

I have come to realize that this is completely irrelevant to the doctrine contained within the Book of Mormon.

Just as some scholars doubting the Exodus due to lack of evidence doesn't make the law of Moses any less valid.
Just as some scholars doubting the existence of a historical Christ due to lack of evidence doesn't make Christianity any less valid.

It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeketh a sign (proof) instead of relying on faith.

[sam]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

I have come to realize that this is completely irrelevant to the doctrine contained within the Book of Mormon.

Just as some scholars doubting the Exodus due to lack of evidence doesn't make the law of Moses any less valid.
Just as some scholars doubting the existence of a historical Christ due to lack of evidence doesn't make Christianity any less valid.

It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeketh a sign (proof) instead of relying on faith.

I'm not looking for proof  for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon I know by studying and praying about the Book of Mormon that it is true. I just want to do a one on one comparison between the North American model Hopewell Indians and the central or south American model civilization that is considered to be the Nephites  that's all.

But at this point I don't think researchers have ever stated that a particular civilization is considered the Nephites like the Hopewell are.

[sam]

49 minutes ago, sam said:

I come to realize that there is no civilization in central or south America that apologist and researchers can point to as the Nephites.

I only say this because I would love to do a one on one comparison with the Hopewell Indians found in North America to a civilization found in central or south America but at this point that is not possible.

If anybody knows of a civilization found in central or south America that is considered the Nephites please let me know I honestly want to do a one on one comparison.

At this point the Hopewell win by default unless someone comes up with a civilization found in central or south America or at this point I will take any civilization.

[RevTestament]

I feel there is a definite connection between the Maya and the Lamanites.

[sam]

3 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I feel there is a definite connection between the Maya and the Lamanites.

Interesting what about the Nephites.

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, sam said:

I feel like the king has no clothes.

So get dressed you disingenuous flasher.

[Duncan]

Just now, sam said:

At this point the Hopewell win by default unless someone comes up with a civilization found in central or south America or at this point I will take any civilization.

have you read John Sorenson's Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon. Something I've wondered about and I haven't looked into it but I wonder if the Nephites/Lamanites/Mulekites/Broohahahites didn't live within another civilization. I am a member of the Church and I and my fellow saints here live within a city among other groups of peoples, nationalities etc. We don't live on an isolated colony or anything. So, picking through ancient civilizations looking for a single solitary group might be hard but finding one among many might be where the proverbial cat is hiding 

[RevTestament]

7 minutes ago, sam said:

Interesting what about the Nephites.

In a lot of ways, I feel as you do, but trying to sort through the remnants in archeological data has been a challenge to say the least. My personal feeling is that there is much better data for Mesoamerican archeology than N. American archeology.... which is sad. The United States has from the outset skewed the data it would save, and early on there was no established scholarly community to save artifacts in an organized fashion. Most of the sites esp in New England have been utterly destroyed without sufficiently being studied making it all the more difficult to reconstruct history.

Nevertheless, I will say I seem to see Lamanite influences in Uto-Aztecan peoples and Mayan peoples.

[Nemesis]

39 minutes ago, sam said:

Interesting what about the Nephites.

Ok so over the past few years you've come to this site under 3 different usernames peddling the same wares.  You have never been in it for a discussion, so what's your point in being here again?  Are you seriously trying to discuss or are you just preaching?

Nemesis

[sam]

25 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

Ok so over the past few years you've come to this site under 3 different usernames peddling the same wares.  You have never been in it for a discussion, so what's your point in being here again?  Are you seriously trying to discuss or are you just preaching?

Nemesis

 I do enjoy discussing the North American model and I have learned a lot from the people on this forum for the strengths and weaknesses of the Hopewell being the Nephites. 

People on this forum can point out some of the areas that need more research or is not holding up. 

[Brant Gardner]

1 hour ago, sam said:

At this point the Hopewell win by default unless someone comes up with a civilization found in central or south America or at this point I will take any civilization.

May I ask why you haven't read the responses to your question that provide the names? I understand that you miss the subtle difference between being part of a culture and being a culture. Imagine you are LDS and living in the United States. I couldn't say that you believed and acted like every other person in the US, but I could say you shared a culture with them. I would think that regardless of your religious community, you would drive a car that non-LDS drive, eat most of the food that non-LDS eat, live in a house that might not be much different from a non-Mormon neighbor.

So I could say that you were LDS and US, but it wouldn't be correct to say all US are LDS.

In case you missed, it, and since you are making a big point of it, I will repeat my position. From the founding of the city of Nephi to Mosiah1, Maya culture. They were forced to leave, whereupon they joined with the people in Zarahemla--which would have been Zoque culture. 

The whole idea that either side can "win" without actually dealing with the evidence seems rather unusual. Wouldn't it be prudent to actually study both positions?

[strappinglad]

I spent some time in Central America. The archeology there has barely scratched the surface of what is available. A drive down the coast of Guatemala will show mound after mound out on the flats that have not been touched. New sites are opened regularly, but unfortunately some have already be disturbed/looted . Evidence of massive civilizations in South America is just now being brought to light. Central America is not the Middle East where very extensive digs have uncovered much about Biblical times. And yet, surprises are still being unearthed there.

  No serious scholar would make the statement that civilization X was the Nephites. It took a very long time before any scholars were willing to even admit to there actually being Hittites. Give it time,sam, give it time.

[strappinglad]

The one difference I see between the example of LDS being part of US culture and Nephites being part of ( you pick it ) culture, is the apparent high number of leadership positions in the (X) culture being obviously held by Nephites. They were Kings,  judges, military leaders etc. and were so not rarely but consistently.

[Duncan]

Just now, strappinglad said:

The one difference I see between the example of LDS being part of US culture and Nephites being part of ( you pick it ) culture, is the apparent high number of leadership positions in the (X) culture being obviously held by Nephites. They were Kings,  judges, military leaders etc. and were so not rarely but consistently.

famous mormons dot com or dot net or dot whatever!

[Brant Gardner]

36 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I spent some time in Central America. The archeology there has barely scratched the surface of what is available. A drive down the coast of Guatemala will show mound after mound out on the flats that have not been touched. New sites are opened regularly, but unfortunately some have already be disturbed/looted . Evidence of massive civilizations in South America is just now being brought to light. Central America is not the Middle East where very extensive digs have uncovered much about Biblical times. And yet, surprises are still being unearthed there.

  No serious scholar would make the statement that civilization X was the Nephites. It took a very long time before any scholars were willing to even admit to there actually being Hittites. Give it time,sam, give it time.

That is true for a Nephite city--but not all cities were Nephite, even though they were in a similar culture. There were some cultural/religious differences from Maya city to Maya city even with only about 30 miles between them. Still, their overall culture was Maya in spite of specific differences.

[Glenn101]

I would wonder about any theory that tries to pinpoint any existing culture as "Nephite" owing to the fact that the Nephites were destroyed as a nation, a people according to the Book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon. Evidently they were not completely wiped off the earth as Mormon noted that some of the Nephites defected to the Lamanites. Also, it seems that there were scattered Nephites left because Moroni noted that the Lamanites hunted down and killed any Nephites that would not deny Christ.

Any Nephites that were left who would not deny Christ had to leave the area or die. Any who left would have been swallowed up in whatever culture they found refuge.

We don't know what happened to Hagoth's people.

But even as a Nephite nation, I do not know what we should expect to find. There were culture, people in jst about every place they landed. This fact has been discussed more than once here.

And it will be again, I expect.

Glenn

[ksfisher]

34 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

The one difference I see between the example of LDS being part of US culture and Nephites being part of ( you pick it ) culture, is the apparent high number of leadership positions in the (X) culture being obviously held by Nephites. They were Kings,  judges, military leaders etc. and were so not rarely but consistently.

All but three governors of Utah have been LDS.

[UtahTexan]

I lived in Central America for five years.  I have been to Mayan Ruins in Honduras and Mexico.  I can only tell you that I believe The Mayans and Lamanites are connected in some way.

[cdowis]

4 hours ago, sam said:

I come to realize that there is no civilization in central or south America that apologist and researchers can point to as the Nephites.

I only say this because I would love to do a one on one comparison with the Hopewell Indians found in North America to a civilization found in central or south America but at this point that is not possible.

If anybody knows of a civilization found in central or south America that is considered the Nephites please let me know I honestly want to do a one on one comparison.

Wow, maybe the Nephites lived in North America!  Sam, why don't you tell us about it.  

Edited September 7, 2016 by cdowis

[James Tunney]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I have come to realize that this is completely irrelevant to the doctrine contained within the Book of Mormon.

Just as some scholars doubting the Exodus due to lack of evidence doesn't make the law of Moses any less valid.
Just as some scholars doubting the existence of a historical Christ due to lack of evidence doesn't make Christianity any less valid.

It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeketh a sign (proof) instead of relying on faith.

Would it change your mind if the above were proven to be invented?  What if someone told you that they had seen the afterlife and that it was nothing like mormonism or christianity claims?  When you asked for proof, that person called you wicked and adulterous because you asked for a sign, how would you react?